No Pre-Trib Rapture, The Church Will Be Present On Earth To See The Tribulation And Second Coming

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Randy Kluth

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Dispensational aspect to the 70th week

At the sheep/goats judgment, Jesus divides those who did and those who did not care for the needs of His brothers, the Israelites. Those who did care for their needs are declared righteous on that basis.

Our righteousness declared directly from our faith. For these, it is declared from their works. Now, I understand that works show faith, that we do things because we believe the message we are told.

However . . . our instruction to being saved is to believe in Jesus, receiving Him. These will apparently be receiving new instruction, as their judgment is based in other criteria.

I would surmise that the two witnesses who will be present and prophesying to Israel will declare that these are God's chosen people and to act accordingly. Those who obey will of necessity have to defy the beast to do it.

The church doesn't "fit" into the 70th week.

Much love!

You've already admitted the weakness in this argument--all Christians, by their faith, do good works. Never are we told that the 2 Witnesses give special and different non-Church instruction to these Jewish Christians. Very, very weak argument, and completely built on unstated assumptions.
 

marks

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I'm hoping that you look, objectively, at the argument, Pretrib makes, that the Church *cannot* be here during the time of God's Wrath, ie during the Reign of Antichrist. Clearly, you admit that the Jewish Church is indeed here!
"Pre-trib" does not make arguments. I'm pre-trib. I don't make that argument, that the church "cannot" be on earth at that time.

Even so, there is nothing in the Bible that talks about the church or the body of Christ being on the earth during the reign of the beast. Nothing says that.

I'm happy you're willing to brave an answer even when you aren't always able to give a satisfying answer to me.

I am perfectly happy to share such answers as I have. Whether you will be satisfied or not is up to you. But I hope you will be satisfied, because it's truth that sets us free.

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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This is why I like to stay strictly with Scripture, and what it says is God's wrath. But it's like I said, I don't make this a part of my reasoning for pre-trib rapture.

Much love!

Mark, you are asking the impossible of us in connection with *any* subject. If you require only your chosen English word, such as "wrath," it isn't even the Greek or Hebrew *Bible* word!

Also, words have synonyms. An author may wish to put a very slight different spin on a word that means the same thing as "wrath," such as "anger," or "judgment." I don't think your approach is reasonable, in all honesty.

Just step back from your requirements to prove what "divine wrath" is, and recognize that you're asking for divine punishment in history, as opposed to divine punishment in the last days, as poured out upon Antichrist. There have been *lots* of examples of divine punishment in the history of Israel in the OT! Both Israel and pagan nations suffered divine punishment, including what I already gave you--the Flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom.

These are unmistakably cases of "divine punishment!" So how different is it at the end of the age, when God pours out His wrath on the Antichrist? It will be just like the case of God pouring out His wrath on Babylon in the ancient past!

But what I really think "God's wrath" means when we are told we are exempted from it is Eternal Punishment. We are, as Christians, promised exemption from Eternal Damnation, because we've been saved by the blood of Christ when we chose to embrace his life. This is being exempted from "divine wrath," and this is the context of this verse--not exemption from a time of wrath.
 

Randy Kluth

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"Pre-trib" does not make arguments. I'm pre-trib. I don't make that argument, that the church "cannot" be on earth at that time.

Even so, there is nothing in the Bible that talks about the church or the body of Christ being on the earth during the reign of the beast. Nothing says that.

The argument you advanced, along with other Pretribbers, is that the Church should not be on earth during the time of "God's Wrath," which you've stated is the time of the "Tribulation," aka the Reign of Antichrist. This is indeed stating that the Church cannot be here during that time.

Instead of getting upset with me pointing out the contradiction, just change your position! :) The Bible positively states that the Church, or the "body of Christ," is on the earth at that time. The "saints," as they are called, are identified as believers in Christ. That makes them part of the universal Church.

If the position Pretribbers hold to is indefensible, maybe they *shouldn't* be defended?
 

marks

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You've already admitted the weakness in this argument--all Christians, by their faith, do good works. Never are we told that the 2 Witnesses give special and different non-Church instruction to these Jewish Christians. Very, very weak argument, and completely built on unstated assumptions.

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

When Jesus returns, first, He sends the angels to gather His chosen people, Isreal, back to their promised land. Then, when He sits on His throne, all the nations are gathered to Him, and he separates them left and right, and the reason given for the one and the other is that this one did, and this one did not, do these things.

Why? Why is one accepted and one rejected solely on the basis of whether or not they give food to the Israelites? Most answer that the actions show their faith. I'm asking, their faith in what? God's message of course. What is God's message? Whatever it is, it will evidently have to do with whether they care for the needs of the Israelites.

Your opinion apparently is that this is not significant, and is a weak argument., but I do not agree. We need to take all these things into account, and see any inconsistencies with our ideas and opinions.

Much love!
 

marks

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Mark, you are asking the impossible of us in connection with *any* subject. If you require only your chosen English word, such as "wrath," it isn't even the Greek or Hebrew *Bible* word!
Try orge, and thumos. That's good for starters.

No, I'm not asking the impossible, this is what we do. Stick with what the Bible actually says, and weed out from our arguments those things it doesn't actually say.

Also, words have synonyms. An author may wish to put a very slight different spin on a word that means the same thing as "wrath," such as "anger," or "judgment." I don't think your approach is reasonable, in all honesty.

I use the Bible to define it's own terms. I find this perfectly reasonable, and in fact the way to know I'm not mixing in my own ideas. Once I've decided that when I read of God judging that judgment=wrath, for instance, it's going to lead to erroneous ideas. God will judge us all, but God will not put His wrath on all, for instance.

Just step back from your requirements to prove what "divine wrath" is, and recognize that you're asking for divine punishment in history, as opposed to divine punishment in the last days, as poured out upon Antichrist. There have been *lots* of examples of divine punishment in the history of Israel in the OT! Both Israel and pagan nations suffered divine punishment, including what I already gave you--the Flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom.

These are unmistakably cases of "divine punishment!" So how different is it at the end of the age, when God pours out His wrath on the Antichrist? It will be just like the case of God pouring out His wrath on Babylon in the ancient past!

And I recommend stepping back from our own connotations, and instead - just stick with what the Bible says, in the terms it uses.

But all of this goes in the wrong direction in my rapture discussion, because, I don't use this argument in supporting my view. To me, the rapture is not about God's wrath.

Much love!
 

marks

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The argument you advanced, along with other Pretribbers, is that the Church should not be on earth during the time of "God's Wrath," which you've stated is the time of the "Tribulation," aka the Reign of Antichrist. This is indeed stating that the Church cannot be here during that time.

Again . . . this is not my argument. The church will not be present during the 70th week, and all that it contains, wrath, persecutions, judgments, all that.

You keep wanting to focus on something that I don't, as if I did.

I don't know now to make this more clear.

Avoiding God's wrath is not my reason for thinking the church is raptured pretrib.

Much love!
 

marks

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This is being exempted from "divine wrath," and this is the context of this verse--not exemption from a time of wrath.

Now, while nothing in the Bible speaks of this directly, there is a similar statement made.


Revelation 3:10 KJV
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (testing), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

"the hour of peirasmos", the hour of testing. A time period from which these are exempt. Very interesting to consider the implications of being kept from a time period.

Much love!
 

marks

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The Bible positively states that the Church, or the "body of Christ," is on the earth at that time.
No it does not.

The "saints," as they are called, are identified as believers in Christ. That makes them part of the universal Church.

The saints, yes, but they are not called the body of Christ, or the church. "Universal church" is not Biblical terminology, and only describes what you want to describe by it.

The OT saints were not the body of Christ, while still being saints, for instance.

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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No it does not.
The saints, yes, but they are not called the body of Christ, or the church. "Universal church" is not Biblical terminology, and only describes what you want to describe by it.

The OT saints were not the body of Christ, while still being saints, for instance.
Much love!

*All* Christians in the NT era are part of the "Body of Christ." To say otherwise is wrong. If there are any Christians at all in the "Tribulation Period," they are part of the Body of Christ. Your saying that some Christians are *not* the Body of Christ is unScriptural and in fact against Scripture.

1 Cor 10.16 And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

Most Christians feel Jesus asked *all Christians* to participate in Communion, in order to "remember him." Are you saying that there are Christians in the "Tribulation Period" who do not take Communion?
 

marks

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is that the Church should not be on earth during the time of "God's Wrath," which you've stated is the time of the "Tribulation," aka the Reign of Antichrist.
Babylon Harlot's wine is wrath. The sixth seal announces the day of wrath is come. The seventh trumpet announces that the wrath has come. In the bowls wrath of God is filled up. The winepress is God's wrath. These are the wrath in the Revelation.

Tribulation simply means affliction, crushing pressure. There is actual time called "the Tribulation", only that Jesus said following the AOD would be the time of greatest affliction ever. That affliction is not defined as being the reign of the antichrist - actually the beast. I can't recall a place where it speaks of antichrist reigning. Again, I like to hold to Biblical terminology uses in the way the Bible uses it. This is a mental discipline intended to keep my own ideas from infiltrating.

Once we start swapping out Biblical terms for non-Biblical terms, we end up with words that we are defining our ways to describe doctrines God describes in other ways. Or even using Biblical terms, but still substituting them, just to say, I prefer to think of Biblical concepts in the very words and terms the Bible itself uses.

Much love!
 

marks

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*All* Christians in the NT era are part of the "Body of Christ." To say otherwise is wrong. If there are any Christians at all in the "Tribulation Period," they are part of the Body of Christ. Your saying that some Christians are *not* the Body of Christ is unScriptural and in fact against Scripture.
Scripture. Let's talk Scripture.

Why the sheep/goats judgment the way the Bible says?

Much love!
 

marks

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If there are any Christians at all in the "Tribulation Period," they are part of the Body of Christ.
The question is . . . Will God declare the Christian righteous because of their works?

Much love!
 

marks

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Most Christians feel Jesus asked *all Christians* to participate in Communion, in order to "remember him." Are you saying that there are Christians in the "Tribulation Period" who do not take Communion?
Do you have a passage in mind to look at?

Much love!
 

marks

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This is indeed stating that the Church cannot be here during that time.

Revelation 9:1-6 KJV
1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

All who are alive on the earth at this time who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads will suffer this fate.

Revelation 7:1-4 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

According to this passage, there will be 144,000 men of Israel who will have this seal.

So then there will be 144,000 on the earth who will be protected from this plague, and they will all be Isrealites, sealed before the sounding of the trumpets. If the gentile church is present on the earth at this time, not being Jews, they will not have this seal of God in their foreheads, and therefore would be subject to this locust plague for those 5 months.

Any other conclusion will not have Scripture to support it. That believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit, this does not equal "having the seal of God in their foreheads". The angel brought "the seal of the living God", which is not the same thing as that the Holy Spirit indwells us when we believe. This is something an angel brings out of the east. And it is used to seal 144,000 of Israel.

Those who receive this seal are called "the servants of God", an inclusive term. If I say, you can eat the cookies on the plate, what am I offering? Some of them? Or all of them?

The servants of God are sealed, and there are 144,000 of them, and they are all Jews. So then, where is the gentile church? We are called the servants of God also. But at that point in history, these are all there are.

This shows the church is not on the earth at this time. But only if you are willing to strictly confine yourself to what is written.

Much love!
 

marks

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The Bible positively states that the Church, or the "body of Christ," is on the earth at that time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Which day won't come? The day of Christ. And of our gathering to our Lord Jesus Christ? Don't be shaken in mind as though the day of Christ (lit.) has arrived. Why would they be shaken in mind by the Day of Christ arriving? And in particular concerning His coming, and our being gathered to Him?

If they understood that they would be gathered to Christ at the Day of Christ, then this would be telling them the time was now, so that's good news. If they understood that they would be gathered after the Day of Christ, then this would still be good news, telling them they were truly getting closer.

It's only if they understood that that they would be gathered before the Day of Christ that they would be troubled, as that is the only viewpoint which would conflict with that news, that the Day of Christ is come, that is, has arrived.

That day - the day of Christ - will not come except the apostasia come first, and the man of sin is revealed. Apostasia has a strong background usage of rebellion, but literally means departure. That day will not come except the departure come first.

Is that statement intented to settle the issue raised just before it?

My understanding of this passage is expressed in,

"You are getting letters and speakers telling you, "this is now the Day of Christ", and you are troubled about that, because you know I told you that the rapture will be first, and then the Day of Christ, which is the Day of the LORD, which is a day of wrath.

Don't pay attention to them, because the Day of the LORD won't come except the departure come first, and the man of sin be revealed."


1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Which day won't come? The day of Christ. And of our gathering to our Lord Jesus Christ? Don't be shaken in mind as though the day of Christ (lit.) has arrived. Why would they be shaken in mind by the Day of Christ arriving? And in particular concerning His coming, and our being gathered to Him?

The Day of Christ was Christ's Coming for the Church. What the Thessalonians were concerned about was that they had missed what may have been a very significant event, the Coming of Christ.

Now you may ask, "How could they possibly have thought they missed this event?" For one, those who claimed they were in some sense the "Coming of Christ" were not presenting it properly. I could offer you several possibilities as to how they presented it.

But since Paul wasn't all that clear about what the claim looked like, we should take it in a broader context, in the same way in which Jesus warned his Disciples: "Don't go running after False Christs and False Prophets." People, in their carnal selves, are always looking for some earthly exhibition of God's Kingdom so that they can control and manipulate it.

If, for example, the Kingdom of God appears as an army, a General may maneuver that army to get what he wants, and claim it is God's Kingdom instrument. We've seen kings claim to rule by "Divine Right." Sometimes it is their right, and at other times, it is just their rationalization for abusing their office.

We've seen Christian cults claim to be, in some sense, the Kingdom of God, eg the JWs. Many of the Christian cults claim to be prophets of what is happening next, so that they appear to be the ones determining, for us, what next big event will happen, so that we can be prepared.

There have been various Millennial movements in history, that claimed to be part of what is bringing in the Kingdom of God. In our day, Premillennialists are trying to get people all excited by telling them, as if they're a prophet, the Kingdom's right at the door! By declaring the imminence of the Kingdom, and by "interpreting" current events, they become gurus of the future for their followers.

Paul was telling the Christians at Thessalonica: Don't get all excited in this way about the Kingdom of God. We're not to be concerned about whether it's coming in the next few years or in the next few centuries. Rather, we need to *always be ready,* spiritually and morally, so that when it does come, sooner or later, we will be ready. We are to live moral and spiritual lives *all the time!* It is not predicated on a prophetic calendar scheme. It is not predicated on any particular sequence of events. We are to be righteous *all the time!*

At any rate, anything that claims to be "God's Kingdom" is false, because until that day actually comes, we have to be aware that the enemy is ruling in the heaven, and controls many political powers on earth. We cannot exercise full Kingdom authority, or eschatological power, until Christ comes and awards that task to us. We do have limited authority to be a witness, to testify to the truth. But overall, we are as Christ was, humbled by wicked forces that control us materially, to some degree.

If they understood that they would be gathered to Christ at the Day of Christ, then this would be telling them the time was now, so that's good news. If they understood that they would be gathered after the Day of Christ, then this would still be good news, telling them they were truly getting closer.

It's only if they understood that that they would be gathered before the Day of Christ that they would be troubled, as that is the only viewpoint which would conflict with that news, that the Day of Christ is come, that is, has arrived.

That day - the day of Christ - will not come except the apostasia come first, and the man of sin is revealed. Apostasia has a strong background usage of rebellion, but literally means departure. That day will not come except the departure come first.

"Apostasia" can only mean "departure from the faith," not "departure, as in Rapture of the Church!" Does it make sense to say, "The Rapture will not come until the Rapture happens 1st?" That doesn't make sense!

Paul was teaching what Dan 7 taught, that Christ comes only after wickedness is finished with the rebellion of Antichrist, the "Little Horn." We are to be alert to problems in our present existence, so that we preserve our spiritual standing until the end.
 

Randy Kluth

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Revelation 9:1-6 KJV
All who are alive on the earth at this time who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads will suffer this fate.

Revelation 7:1-4 KJV
According to this passage, there will be 144,000 men of Israel who will have this seal.

So then there will be 144,000 on the earth who will be protected from this plague, and they will all be Isrealites, sealed before the sounding of the trumpets. If the gentile church is present on the earth at this time, not being Jews, they will not have this seal of God in their foreheads, and therefore would be subject to this locust plague for those 5 months.

1) If there are Israeli Christians on earth at this time, then the *Church* is on the earth, suffering the "Wrath of God," according to your definition of the "Wrath of God." I do not personally define the "Wrath of God" as the "Tribulation Period." But the point is, you do, and you therefore have the Jewish Church on the earth, suffering God's "Wrath" during this time.

2) There are other interpretations of this passage without denying that there are still Christians on earth at this time, suffering the "Wrath of God," as you define it. For example, I see the 144,000 in the context of Israel, or more broadly, the Middle East region. A "strong wind" is blowing, bringing judgment upon all except for Christians, represented by a symbolic 144,000. This number represents Christian Jews who are the biological heirs of Abraham, and of his descendants from all 12 tribes.

This does not have to be a wind that blows across the whole globe. In those days, the "earth" expressed the entire land area around a particular observor. It was less scientific, and more "observational" then.

I think the point is, God is going to eternally preserve Christians in this region, particularly in Israel, who otherwise are going to be judged and removed for eternity.
 

Truth7t7

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I personally believe the book of Revelation is only speaking of a single period of 3.5 years, followed by a brief period of time in which armies are mobilized to Armageddon. I believe that because the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule is based on Dan 7, where we are told the same, that there will be a final 3.5 years period of Antichristian rule.

Dan 7.25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

This is repeated again in Dan 12.

Dan 12.7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Dan 12.11-12 is something else. Daniel 12, I believe, sums up the book of Daniel, emphasizing not just one, but two of the major events on Israel's horizon at that time--the coming Antichrist to end the age of Israel's struggles and the problem of Antiochus 4. Both were still future in Daniel's time, and were to be of great concern to the Jews.

Though the reign of Antiochus 4 and the reign of Antichrist are roughly the same length of time, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign is expressed as strictly a 3.5 year period, or 1260 days. The reign of Antiochus 4, by contrast, extends slightly longer, to 1290 days.

Revelation describes this 3.5 year period of Antichristian rule more specifically as 42 months or 1260 days. Though this is the length of time Antichrist rules without impediment or opposition, I think his rule actually extends beyond that, though in a period when his absolute authority is being lost.

Nations gather to Armageddon in opposition to him, culminating in a world war. This is purely speculative, but I know the 1260 days is actually extended to account for the 2 Witnesses remaining dead in the streets of Jerusalem. And I know it takes time for armies to be mobilized to the Middle East. And I also know Christ will return on an unknown day.
I Agree, the 1260 days of the (Two Witnesses) and 42 months of (The Beast) are "Parallel" and the same time frame of 3.5 years

Dispensationalism falsely teaches these are separate chronological events in a total of 7 years (False)

Dispensationalism also falsely teaches the book of Revelation is taught in chronological order (False), it's parallel teachings of same events

The (Two Witnesses) will be before (The Beast) for 3.5 years, bringing all plagues as Often as they will, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt