No Resurrection, No Millennium

[Spiritual Israelite]

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

That's a good verse, Robert. I guess it means that we shouldn't answer your questions since...you know...

 

[St. Joseph]

Christ had a bodily resurrection. Paul taught a bodily resurrection. So i believe in a physical bodly resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At this point, I don't know why someone would argue otherwise, and insist in saying Lazarus was resurrected from the dead, but it really doesn't matter to me.

Always Believing...I mean Robert...I mean Gilligan, what in the world are you talking about here? Have you never read John 11 which talks about the death of Lazarus and then about how Jesus raised him from the dead?

John 11:38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.” 40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

You don't know why someone would insist that Lazarus was resurrected from the dead? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because scripture clearly teaches that he was?

 

[St. Joseph]

Always Believing...I mean Robert...I mean Gilligan, what in the world are you talking about here? Have you never read John 11 which talks about the death of Lazarus and then about how Jesus raised him from the dead?

John 11:38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.” 40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

You don't know why someone would insist that Lazarus was resurrected from the dead? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because scripture clearly teaches that he was?

But again, Lazarus died again. Jesus raised a little girl from the dead. Paul raised the young man that fell out the window.
Resurrection means one that is raised to die no more.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But again, Lazarus died again.

I didn't say otherwise.

Jesus raised a little girl from the dead.

Right. And she died again later, too.

Paul raised the young man that fell out the window.
Resurrection means one that is raised to die no more.

The word resurrection can refer to different things, but it generally means to be brought from death to life. It can refer to someone being resurrected from the dead back in their mortal body or, in the case of Jesus and those who belong to Him, it can refer to those who are resurrected from the dead unto bodily immortality, as Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[ewq1938]

God raising someone back to life on earth, to live out the rest of their days, is no more a resurrection of the dead, than is a spirit-only 'resurrection'.

False.

At this point, I don't know why someone would argue otherwise, and insist in saying Lazarus was resurrected from the dead, but it really doesn't matter to me.

Here is Lazarus being resurrected from the dead:

Joh 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
Joh 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Joh 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Joh 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

 

[ewq1938]

Resurrection means one that is raised to die no more.

And you can prove that? Have anything from a Greek dictionary or concordance to support that?

 

[St. Joseph]

And you can prove that? Have anything from a Greek dictionary or concordance to support that

Can you prove me wrong?

 

[St. Joseph]

Even Jonah was a sign or example of Christs resurrection. He was literally dead 3 days before the fish spit him out.

 

[ewq1938]

Can you prove me wrong?

Sure but I asked you for proof of what you claim so I and those reading along are waiting.

 

[ewq1938]

Even Jonah was a sign or example of Christs resurrection. He was literally dead 3 days before the fish spit him out.

Jonah was not dead at any point of those 3 days. Inside the fish was similar to Christ inside the tomb, but Christ's body was dead while Jonah's was not. He was alive and prayed to God inside the fish...he was spit out alive.

 

[St. Joseph]

Sure but I asked you for proof of what you claim so I and those reading along are waiting.

There is only 2 resurrections. At the end of the world,ages,whenever. First one the believers. Second one,the lost to damnation.
Common sense would tell us Lazarus then, could only be resurrected once.

 

[ewq1938]

There is only 2 resurrections. At the end of the world,ages,whenever. First one the believers. Second one,the lost to damnation.
Common sense would tell us Lazarus then, could only be resurrected once.

Some people died and were resurrected back to mortal life. Lazarus was one of them. He would have died again. On the flip side there will be some mortals that never die, those are written to be changed at the second coming. Most people do die physically one time while a smaller amount died twice, and a group that will not die physically but will be physically changed.

 

[St. Joseph]

Some people died and were resurrected back to mortal life. Lazarus was one of them. He would have died again. On the flip side there will be some mortals that never die, those are written to be changed at the second coming. Most people do die physically one time while a smaller amount died twice, and a group that will not die physically but will be physically changed.

It started out ok. Then you confused me.
Can you clarify? I cant tell if you repeated or what happened

 

[ewq1938]

It started out ok. Then you confused me.
Can you clarify? I cant tell if you repeated or what happened

Just covering three situations about death. Most people die once, a small amount die twice, and a group in the end times won't die at all.

 

[Timtofly]

When did this resurrection take place?
Paul warns against teaching resurrection has already taken place. He called it heresy. I will stick with Paul.

Do you have proof that is what Paul said? Paul claims those who do not accept a resurrection are in error.

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."

Paul makes no distinction between Christ being resurrected, and the rest of the dead being resurrected. That would include Lazarus. Lazarus was in sheol for 4 days. Jesus was only gone for 3 days. Certainly Lazarus was more dead than Jesus was. We are not talking seconds or minutes. Not even hours. Lazarus was dead dead. Not a near death experience.

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

Jesus purposely waited for 4 days.

"Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

Jesus waited 4 days so they could see the glory of God. This was a resurrection.

"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

How can talking about Jesus' resurrection be profain and vain babbling? How can talking about Lazarus be profane and vain babbling? That is Scripture.

A past resurrection, where it is taught no other resurrection can occur would be a false teaching. No one living missed a resurrection. They were not even dead yet. Unless you can show what exactly these two teachers even taught, you can not apply that as a blanket statement declaring God's Word off limit in a conversation about the resurrection. Today the false teaching is that there is only one future resurrection. Not that the living missed the only resurrection ever to happen. These 2 teachers seem to be preterist in their view that resurrection already happened, and now people were stuck in their sin with no hope of eternal life. I guess your interpretation is totally different. What else would destroy a person's faith other than claiming it was all over, and nothing in the future could change that?

We know there was a resurrection at the Cross. That is not the same as declaring it was the only one that would ever happen.

 

[Timtofly]

That's why it's Scripturally incorrect to say Lazarus was resurrected from the dead, coming out of his tomb still bound in graveclothes.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

So this is true, except for Lazarus, Jesus, and every other resurrection since then?

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So this is true, except for Lazarus, Jesus, and every other resurrection since then?

"And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord."

This was not a resurrection. She was not placed into a grave.

"And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him."

Not a resurrection.

Even Paul left for dead, entering the 3rd heaven, Paradise, was not called a resurrection.

Being raised from death and the Resurrection and the Life out of the grave after so many days is a resurrection. However, no one can taste death since the Cross. No one even enters the grave. Unless one is sent back prior to a resurrection, then the resurrection is immediate and permanent. Why would God grant eternal life at the point of physical death, and then send them all back to Adam's dead corruptible flesh at some point?

Not tasting death is not the prevention of natural physical death. Not tasting death is totally avoiding the state of death the soul experienced in the OT. That tasting death was waiting in Abraham's bosom. That tasting death no longer happened after the Cross. Resurrection for the redeemed was instant and permanent. Only those alive at the Second Coming will not even face death, unless they are about to be martyred at the split second of the Second Coming. Then you can argue if they physically died or not. Or even lying in a hospital and take their last breadth, the second the Second Coming happens. Are they considered alive and remain or dead at the same time?

 

[Timtofly]

But again, Lazarus died again. Jesus raised a little girl from the dead. Paul raised the young man that fell out the window.
Resurrection means one that is raised to die no more.

Scripture that states Lazarus died again?

Your opinion does not create a fact.

Your opinion, instead, calls Jesus a liar, and that Lazarus did not experience the Resurrection and the Life. You seem to not believe the very words of Jesus.

"And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth."

 

[St. Joseph]

Scripture that states Lazarus died again?

Your opinion does not create a fact.

Your opinion, instead, calls Jesus a liar, and that Lazarus did not experience the Resurrection and the Life. You seem to not believe the very words of Jesus.

"And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth."

Believe what you will. Will not change destiny of the soul either way. Nothing to argue over.

 

[St. Joseph]

Do you have proof that is what Paul said? Paul claims those who do not accept a resurrection are in error.

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."

Paul makes no distinction between Christ being resurrected, and the rest of the dead being resurrected. That would include Lazarus. Lazarus was in sheol for 4 days. Jesus was only gone for 3 days. Certainly Lazarus was more dead than Jesus was. We are not talking seconds or minutes. Not even hours. Lazarus was dead dead. Not a near death experience.

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him."

Jesus purposely waited for 4 days.

"Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

Jesus waited 4 days so they could see the glory of God. This was a resurrection.

"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

How can talking about Jesus' resurrection be profain and vain babbling? How can talking about Lazarus be profane and vain babbling? That is Scripture.

A past resurrection, where it is taught no other resurrection can occur would be a false teaching. No one living missed a resurrection. They were not even dead yet. Unless you can show what exactly these two teachers even taught, you can not apply that as a blanket statement declaring God's Word off limit in a conversation about the resurrection. Today the false teaching is that there is only one future resurrection. Not that the living missed the only resurrection ever to happen. These 2 teachers seem to be preterist in their view that resurrection already happened, and now people were stuck in their sin with no hope of eternal life. I guess your interpretation is totally different. What else would destroy a person's faith other than claiming it was all over, and nothing in the future could change that?

We know there was a resurrection at the Cross. That is not the same as declaring it was the only one that would ever happen.

2Tim 2:18