No Righteousness = No Heaven

[marks]

That is where we differ with people of other faiths. And ONLY there.

I though you didn't have a disagreement with other faiths?

Don't you teach that those who are faithful to their learned religion are accepted by God?

Don't all these internal inconsistencies in your teaching bother you, even a little?

?

 

[marks]

The bible states that Cornelius was righteous BEFORE being baptized in the Spirit.

And that's not what Justbyfaith was talking about. Nice little switch there. But non-responsive.

You want to be a sinner AND also righteous while claiming to be of Christ.

Straw man. Constantly pulled out, but still not true.

"Oh! You just want to stay a sinner!! OH!!!" Right.

Until we walk in His holiness by grace we cannot have a right standing with God. Until then we are judged by our own righteousness.

Yet God justifies the ungodly. So this is more nonesense.

 

[marks]

You don't understand that God justifies people for what THEY do.

That's not even what Justification is even about.

Sins require being justified. If you don't sin, then you don't need justification.

Justification is all about when you've sinned, and therefore cannot be with God, if you believe, God justifies the ungodly, and then you can.

Your salvation, so called, is a reward for your so-called works of righteousness (dirty rags). Biblical salvation is by faith, and is a gift, specifically not related to works. Romans 3 and 4 get pretty detailed about that.

 

[marks]

When Jesus said...I came not to call the righteous to repentance....how many indoctrinated people add their self life into it? How many add to the bible to misunderstand it by adding in "self". The carnal mind trying to understand the bible. So then these read the statement as "self-righteous"...without a clue as to their adding judgment to themselves by changing the words of Jesus away from the truth.

I would truly suggest returning to these passages not trying to see yourself in them, as if you are the "righteous" that Jesus does not call to repentance. Look at who Jesus is speaking to.

Were they righteous? Or did they just think they were righteous?

We need to ask those questions of ourselves.

You can fool yourself into thinking you're better than others, that you are righteous, not like those scummy tax collectors! But they will enter the kingdom before the others.

 

[marks]

Here is a way to see how indoctrinated a person is....by the words of Jesus.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Mat.9 :12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Three times Jesus says to us that the righteous are they that are whole and have no need to a doctor. Those who love Jesus and the truth will have no problem admitting that. But the churches are filled with others... who add in a human interpretation to mean that Jesus is saying that the self-righteous are whole.

So they turn the truth of God into a lie.

So you are really going with that?

That there are those who don't need Jesus, and will be with God just fine on their own?

I hope people here really understand the things you teach.

That some of humanity is right with God based on their own merit, having lived a righteous life.

Not a chance!

 

[marks]

There are 4 possibilities listed in the bible

No there is not. More foolishness!

For humanity, there is either the lake of fire, or living eternally in God's kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Please . . . show in the Bible four possible destinations for humans. Not there!

 

[marks]

There is no difference. A good Muslim is the same as a good Jew is the same as a good Christian. If they all do the same things they ALL are like Jesus in that He also did the same.

Tell that to the Muslim and the Jew!

 

[marks]

Peter put Ananias to death

There's a glaring assumption. Certainly isn't taught in Scritpure.

Building much doctrine on this idea? Where would you get this idea from?

 

[marks]

Please stop adding to the words of the bible. You hurt yourself and the naive who would listen to you.

Back at you.

 

[marks]

So you are taking on my arguments that sink YOUR argument. And you are running in circles...but still not finding the end of your knot.

Interesting how you won't address my arguments. But I understand. Many many questions you don't want to answer.

 

[marks]

A person who has the righteousness of God on them is holy as God is holy...with the same authority. So then His righteousness is to rule over others.

I think this must be the draw for you. You see yourself as fit to rule over others, and bristle when they disagree with your doctrine.

This is very revealing.

 

[Episkopos]

Religion teaches us that whether I behave rightly or not...if I hide behind Jesus I'm saved in spite of anything I do or don't do. Then it is a question of having a good lawyer...not unlike the wealthy in this life. Jesus then is not only seen as a Genie of sorts but also a lawyer for the rich. Whether you are guilty or not doesn't matter.

And this form of doctrine serves the middle class who seek to hide what they really are and what they really do in favour of a dogmatic posturing that these claim bring assurance of salvation. I mean...if Jesus is your lawyer and all and willing to defend they who hide their true selves away behind a religious facade??!! However, Jesus is not bought by the rich. He is not attracted to our wealth. So the whole system collapses for want of truth.

Gal. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

 

[marks]

.

Religion teaches us that whether I behave rightly or not...if I hide behind Jesus I'm saved in spite of anything I do or don't do. Then it is a question of having a good lawyer...not unlike the wealthy in this life. Jesus then is not only seen as a Genie of sorts but also a lawyer for the rich.

With this artificial distinction, underlined, you shift the narrative. Anyone else notice that? This attempts to move the conversation away from the Bible, and towards prejudices. Speaking of acting like a lawyer . . . that's what a lawyer does. They shift the narrative into a different direction when they know they can't argue against what's actually being presented.

"OH! You make Jesus like the rich man's lawyer."

No one is talking like that, just you.

 

[marks]

And this form of doctrine serves the middle class

Straw man. middle class? What's that even supposed to mean!

 

[marks]

Some people really love this idea that God will accept us based on

Our

Own

Goodness.

 

[brakelite]

Meaning that unless God imputes Christ's righteousness to you by grace through faith, you are shut out of Heaven. That is what justification is all about.

I disagree. Justification is that which actually does justify us

So you are really going with that?

That there are those who don't need Jesus, and will be with God just fine on their own?

I hope people here really understand the things you teach.

That some of humanity is right with God based on their own merit, having lived a righteous life.

Not a chance!

I think that in a sense that is right. Christ died for the whole world. Not everyone has had the opportunity to hear the gospel in full... Even some who frequent forums may not fully understand our appreciate the gospel. Yet God is gracious. People who are living up to the light they have... Can not God's grace and mercy cover them? Are we to judge and condemn them because they haven't heard of Jesus? Yet surely Jesus gave His life for them also? I am not talking about universalism. But when Jesus said no man cometh to the Father except through Him that doesn't necessarily mean that excludes those who have never heard of him.
In the first chapter of Romans Paul vilified those who knew the truth, but didn't live according to that truth. What do you think Paul means here regarding those who have not heard the gospel...
KJV Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Enoch111]

I disagree. Justification is that which actually does justify us

So how can you disagree? Since justification does indeed ACTUALLY justify us, and God is the one who declares it, what's your problem? Or do you just like to disagree?

 

[justbyfaith]

That's not what you said. And that's not what you meant.

So now you are saying you know what I said and what I meant? I believe that your using the quote feature is in order.

Actually God does not baptize the wicked in the Spirit.

He justifies the ungodly because of their faith; thus translating them from being wicked to being righteous.

God does not make sinners holy...they must repent first. But God does make the righteous holy...if they surrender to Him.

God does indeed make sinners holy. They cannot make themselves holy; and because they are not holy, they are sinners: and God does indeed make them holy.

But you are looking for an extra-biblical righteousness. You want to be a sinner AND also righteous while claiming to be of Christ.

We are justified by His blood (Romans 5:9); in fact covered by it so that God doesn't see our sins any more (Romans 4:7-8). The same blood also sanctifies us (making us holy)...(Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29). But sanctification is most often over time (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Are you saying Jesus was a good looking guy?

More study is needed . . .

Isa 53:1, Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2, For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3, He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5, But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6, All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

In the first chapter of Romans Paul vilified those who knew the truth, but didn't live according to that truth. What do you think Paul means here regarding those who have not heard the gospel...
KJV Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

It seems to me that you are trying to say here that the gospel of Christ is the law.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[farouk]

if there was a passage to cause me to consider if that is true it would be:
1 Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
“...that not unto themselves, but unto us did they minister...”

The Scriptures are indeed so complete as regards the message of the sufferings of Christ, and their deep meaning.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Scriptures are indeed so complete as regards the message of the sufferings of Christ, and their deep meaning.

Indeed. Galatians 6:14-16 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. [16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

It all points to Him.