Obedience to what?

[FHII]

Well, love is referred to as the sum of the law
So, obeying Christ by loving God and neighbor is technically, following the law of Moses

don't think so...

Mark 12 says there is no greater commandment than "Hear, O Israel, The Lord God is one Lord...." Mat 22 says that on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. It doesn't say that when we follow them we "technically follow the Law of Moses". That's been abolished and replaced.

 

[FHII]

Well the Scriptures should settle that issue, and we are not talking about the 613 commandments in the Torah (even though eventually they all express either love to God or love to neighbor).

You may not be, but I am.

 

[Dave L]

Here's how it works. A simple illustration might be; we are all cats and act like cats. But the law says you must be a dog. So the cats go about acting like dogs to no avail. But in the new birth, God changes some cats into dogs, and they naturally (supernaturally) act like dogs. And live in harmony with the law.

 

[Enoch111]

You may not be, but I am.

Why would you be going back to the Old Covenant and its laws? With even with the best of intentions, no one could fulfil, or will now be able to fulfil. There is no tabernacle, no temple, no Levitical priesthood, and no temple sacrifices. And without that everything else under the Old Covenant would be meaningless.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Heb 8:7)

 

[aspen]

don't think so...

Mark 12 says there is no greater commandment than "Hear, O Israel, The Lord God is one Lord...." Mat 22 says that on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. It doesn't say that when we follow them we "technically follow the Law of Moses". That's been abolished and replaced.

Hmm

We may need to agree to disagree on this

I understand what Mark is saying, but after reading it, I move right to our response, which is to love, in imitation of Jesus who didn’t replace the Law, he fulfilled it....

Matt 5:17-20

 

[FHII]

Hmm

We may need to agree to disagree on this

I understand what Mark is saying, but after reading it, I move right to our response, which is to love, in imitation of Jesus who didn’t replace the Law, he fulfilled it....

Matt 5:17-20

Well we certainly do that and walk away amicably. I will, however, give it one more shot. I don't feel I have expressed myself as best I could.

In the NT, we see the words, "obedience" and "keep his commandments", along with the various variation there of. It it wrong to assume that such refers to the Law given in the OT. We are not under that Law, but I see others pushing it by using these types of NT verses.

Instead, you have to look at what the terms are under the New Covenant.

So, if that helps clear what I am getting at, praise God. If not and you still disagree, I understand and say praise God anyway.

 

[FHII]

Why would you be going back to the Old Covenant and its laws?

Well then we may be one the same page. Please read my response to Aspen in post 25.

 

[marks]

Here's how it works. A simple illustration might be; we are all cats and act like cats. But the law says you must be a dog. So the cats go about acting like dogs to no avail. But in the new birth, God changes some cats into dogs, and they naturally (supernaturally) act like dogs. And live in harmony with the law.

The Law did not have people act like children of God. There was no Divine Fatherhood until Jesus, the Firstborn. And then as people were born again they also became children of God.

The Law regulated a created people until such a time as they would be born from God.

But now that we are God's children, why should we return to try to find relationship with Him in His regulations for those who only know Him as their creator, but not their Father?

Much love!
Mark

 

[aspen]

Well we certainly do that and walk away amicably. I will, however, give it one more shot. I don't feel I have expressed myself as best I could.

In the NT, we see the words, "obedience" and "keep his commandments", along with the various variation there of. It it wrong to assume that such refers to the Law given in the OT. We are not under that Law, but I see others pushing it by using these types of NT verses.

Instead, you have to look at what the terms are under the New Covenant.

So, if that helps clear what I am getting at, praise God. If not and you still disagree, I understand and say praise God anyway.

I will research what you are saying - thanks for explaining

 

[Episkopos]

Here's how it works. A simple illustration might be; we are all cats and act like cats. But the law says you must be a dog. So the cats go about acting like dogs to no avail. But in the new birth, God changes some cats into dogs, and they naturally (supernaturally) act like dogs. And live in harmony with the law.

Acting like dogs...hmmm. An interesting choice of animal for your idea. I prefer fish...and the new gills to breathe water rather than air.

But your idea is sound. :)

 

[Enoch111]

in imitation of Jesus who didn’t replace the Law, he fulfilled it....

When something is fulfilled, it is over and done with. When all the prophecies are fulfilled, they will be over and done with.

So Christ indeed fulfilled the Law of Moses, and thereby ushered in the Law of Christ. That is the focus of Christians. And for Christians love is the fulfillment of the Ten Commandments (which remain under the New Covenant).

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

 

[aspen]

When something is fulfilled, it is over and done with. When all the prophecies are fulfilled, they will be over and done with.

So Christ indeed fulfilled the Law of Moses, and thereby ushered in the Law of Christ. That is the focus of Christians. And for Christians love is the fulfillment of the Ten Commandments (which remain under the New Covenant).

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

Sounds like the Law has been abolished based on your understanding, yet Christ declared that he did not come to abolish it

 

[marks]

We have to remember what the Law was. It was a covenant between God and Israel, a contract made at Mt Horeb. When Jesus fulfilled the Law, He fulfilled the Israelite requirement of the contract. "IF you do keep these commandments, Then I will bless you with . . ."

Jesus kept the commandments, all of them, perfectly, thus fulfilling their side of the contract. No one could ever do that, before or since, just the same, Jesus' fulfilling of God's Law propitiates on our behalf.

Returning to that contract, that covenant, for the Jew who has trusted in Jesus, it's like sending in car payments for a car that's already been paid for by someone else. For the gentile it's like sending car payments on that Jewish believer's car. It's someone elses, and it's already paid for.

Much love!

 

[aspen]

I think you guys might be overlooking the big picture here, the commandments are behaviors that if exercised, are examples of sin because they lack love. Love is what completes ‘do not murder’ for example; it is not enough to refrain from killing your neighbor for selfish gain, you are called to love your neighbor! The same goes for all the commandments. In fact, you can no longer commit any sin against your neighbor if you are exercising love. Far from being abolished, the completed, fulfilled love is the word that will not past away and Christ is the Word actualized.

 

[FHII]

I think you guys might be overlooking the big picture here, the commandments are behaviors that if exercised, are examples of sin because they lack love. Love is what completes ‘do not murder’ for example; it is not enough to refrain from killing your neighbor for selfish gain, you are called to love your neighbor! The same goes for all the commandments. In fact, you can no longer commit any sin against your neighbor if you are exercising love. Far from being abolished, the completed, fulfilled love is the word that will not past away and Christ is the Word actualized.

Ok then, what is "far from being abolished"? What must we keep?

 

[Enoch111]

Sounds like the Law has been abolished based on your understanding, yet Christ declared that he did not come to abolish it

There are various aspects of the Law so we need to be clear as to what was abolished (through fulfillment) and what was retained. The term "the law" also has several applications, depending on the context.

 

[Helen]

Ok then, what is "far from being abolished"? What must we keep?

Good question, I like that.

I await his answer too. :)

Jesus said He came and fulfilled the law.
If what He said is true...then the ONLY way we can keep the law is IN HIM..
While we remain "in Him" we too fulfil the law.

Yet @marks hit the nail on the head...the law of Moses was for and to Israel.
It was never ever give to the Gentiles.

And that is why Jesus says The New Commands are LOVE.

Which is impossible for us, but kept when we are 'found in Him without spot or wrinkle.'

 

[FHII]

Good question, I like that.

I await his answer too. :)

Jesus said He came and fulfilled the law.
If what He said is true...then the ONLY way we can keep the law is IN HIM..
While we remain "in Him" we too fulfil the law.

Yet @marks hit the nail on the head...the law of Moses was for and to Israel.
It was never ever give to the Gentiles.

And that is why Jesus says The New Commands are LOVE.

Which is impossible for us, but kept when we are 'found in Him without spot or wrinkle.'

I have a big problem with all this "love" because people generally skip the first commandment (love the Lord) and highlight the second. Also, they forget about the importance of truth. You can't love the Lord without it.

I await his answer too. Because there are a lot of "next question" I will ask.

It's going to come down to the conclusion that we can't keep the Law (whether you want to call it of Moses, God or the 10 Commandments).

If I am right about that, then we get back to my original question.

 

[aspen]

Ok then, what is "far from being abolished"? What must we keep?

Hmm...
I thought I just explained this....I am not being clear....let me try again - sorry about this.

Let’s say the law is a jigsaw puzzle of the Kingdom of God within,
It has a picture that can be seen and understood, but many pieces are missing
Christ brings the missing pieces and declares the puzzle to be complete

The Law had all the information to be complete, but it was missing the authority and the perfection of mind, heart and will to be completed / internalized without Christ.
Love through service and sacrifice were the missing pieces, which only Christ could bring

Now, ‘do not murder’ is not only important, but ‘loving outwardly (God and neighbor), completes the Kingdom God within. Of course, it takes the Holy Spirit to keep all the pieces together and God’s forgiveness when we fail to live out our calling

Hebrews 4:1-3 “Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.”

 

[Enoch111]

It's going to come down to the conclusion that we can't keep the Law (whether you want to call it of Moses, God or the 10 Commandments).

Had you stopped with Moses, that would have been fine. But the New Covenant was designed to have the new creature in Christ enabled to keep the Law (the Ten Commandments).

HEBREWS 10
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

God goes even further with this in Ezekiel 36:26,27
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So under the New Covenant, God gives a new heart and a new spirit to the new creature in Christ, plus His own Holy Spirit to enable the Christian to walk in His laws, statutes, and judgments (His commandments).