Obedience

[Endzone]

I have often thought that I would love to go back and be the age I was (15) before I decided to launch headlong into intense and open rebellion against my dad and also against the Lord God Himself. I see the incredible amount of damage this has done in my life, and I now understand the the Lord is pleased with perfect obedience.

But we don't like that as Christians do we? No, in all the groups I've been in whether big church or home groups, the favorite subject is mercy and grace. And "mercy and grace" combined with your favorite pet sins to get you through the week. Then back to church or home group for more "mercy and grace". But never (if ever) talk about obedience. Very little talk about holiness, and if there is talk about holiness it is discussed as a suggestion. Very little talk about taking up your cross. Very little talk about "if you love me obey me". In fact very little talk about whether or not we are even doing the will of God in our lives.

And I'll tell you something else, it's easy for a bunch of Christian internet posters to post their comments that they think are so insightful and believe that they are in the will of God and submitted to God, but are they really?

Are we going to take this subject of obedience seriously? Or will just a little more "mercy and grace" teaching and preaching make everything alright?

Thanks,
Endzone

 

[[email protected]]

Amen to your opening post.

There is WAY TOO MUCH made of God's love these days and WAY TOO LITTLE of discipleship.

The way of the cross is not paved with marshmellows and pillows.
No Christian has been granted a blanket license for whatever indiscretions they may exercise along the way.

As beloved sons and daughters we are all being groomed for purity and if we kick against the goads we shall surely suffer for it.

A paster I knew once said, "God is able to pluck His own geese."

It is better to walk the straight and narrow as much as we are able than to flirt with the good graces and patience of the Almighty. It should be remembered that the Good Shepard comforts us with the ROD as well as the staff (ps23).

I speak as one who has been guilty of straying....and know the grace of God in my flesh that He is entirely ready, willing, and able to submit us to painful correction.

I beg any of my brothers and sisters who read this to take seriously the precepts of discipleship. God sees what we do in the dark and He does not look the other way when we disobey.

I wish to end this by saying that having experienced God's judgment and mercy in my life, He has always been right in whatever He did. In the end I always found myself humbled before Him, admitting to His rightness and praising Him for it.

 

[Endzone]

Thanks for your honesty brother. We do indeed reap what we sow. But even though God is hard on wayward Christians like myself, He always seems to be up to something good no matter how much it hurts. I've literally gone through hell these past 4 months, and I'm not out of the woods yet. I've been living a bizzare parallel life for 25 years. On the one hand I had the precious Holy Spirit comforting me every day of my life with His sweetness and mercy and tenderness. He would also lead me and answer me in just about any matter--maybe not immediately, but sometimes immediately. OTOH, I've have another life that the Bible plainly says is poster for sin--visiting prostitutes. Finally about 4 months ago, the Lord brought me into judgment. The Holy Spirit departed, evil spirits became stronger, and I have been homeless for 2 months. I am not lead by the Holy Spirit anymore. I haven't been able to find a job in almost 18 months. Normally only 3 weeks was required to find another one. My credit is now bad even though I never missed a payment on 3 cards for over 10 years. In short, my life just fell apart. I wake up in the morning with tormenting demonic spirits of fear attacking me for about an hour. I have physical problems from having unprotected sex with hookers. I'm not even sure what has happened. Is the Lord cursing me? Is the Lord Chastising me? I'm sure the Lord is angry with me because He plainly says His wrath comes upon the children of disobedience. Sunday in downtown Ft. Worth a young black punk came up and blind side punched me in the eye, nose and mouth. My vision in my left eye is still not quite 100%. I called the police and the cops said because I called him a stupid *igger I deserved what I got. About 5 minutes later this punk and a friend snuck up on me and blind sided me with a punch. They concocted a story that he never hit me, and that is what the police report said. It's wrong. My life seems to have imploded. I have reaped bad things from my sins. I'm not sure what the Lord thinks about me now. He doesn't speak to me much anymore. But if I had not had this sin in my life, this would not have happened.

Oh, I could go on about how people are overweight, watch internet porn, have strife, gossip, etc. in their lives. But "mercy and grace" seems to be the money maker in the church. That seems to be what sells. But, the church has just gone insane with this. There is no balance of discipleship like you say.

Thanks for listening.

Amen to your opening post.

There is WAY TOO MUCH made of God's love these days and WAY TOO LITTLE of discipleship.

The way of the cross is not paved with marshmellows and pillows.
No Christian has been granted a blanket license for whatever indiscretions they may exercise along the way.

As beloved sons and daughters we are all being groomed for purity and if we kick against the goads we shall surely suffer for it.

A paster I knew once said, "God is able to pluck His own geese."

It is better to walk the straight and narrow as much as we are able than to flirt with the good graces and patience of the Almighty. It should be remembered that the Good Shepard comforts us with the ROD as well as the staff (ps23).

I speak as one who has been guilty of straying....and know the grace of God in my flesh that He is entirely ready, willing, and able to submit us to painful correction.

I beg any of my brothers and sisters who read this to take seriously the precepts of discipleship. God sees what we do in the dark and He does not look the other way when we disobey.

I wish to end this by saying that having experienced God's judgment and mercy in my life, He has always been right in whatever He did. In the end I always found myself humbled before Him, admitting to His rightness and praising Him for it.

 

[bigape]

Hello Endzone

Interesting post.

And although I fully agree with you, about the importance of “stressing” obedience, in a Church setting, the internet is a whole different animal.

In Church(your Church or my Church), we are dealing with folks who are born again, and they need to be reminded of how important it is for them to follow the Lord’s instructions, so that He will bless them.

But, here on the internet, we face a totally different demographic.
--------------------------------------------------
The internet is like the sidewalk.
And here on the sidewalk, you will find all kinds of people with all kinds of ideas about God and the Bible, all professing to be saved.

Now Jesus made it very clear.........
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The vast majority of people, are going to die and go to hell.

And in light of........
Matthew 7:21-23
V.21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
V.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
V.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is clear, that there are going to be a lot of religious people, who will go to hell.
--------------------------------------------------
Therefore, I respectfully disagree, about the importance of stressing obedience in a setting like this.
What people on the internet(sidewalk), need to hear most, is “the true way of salvation”.

Now I know that this won’t be all that popular, but it’s what people really need.

 

[brionne]

I have often thought that I would love to go back and be the age I was (15) before I decided to launch headlong into intense and open rebellion against my dad and also against the Lord God Himself. I see the incredible amount of damage this has done in my life, and I now understand the the Lord is pleased with perfect obedience.

But we don't like that as Christians do we? No, in all the groups I've been in whether big church or home groups, the favorite subject is mercy and grace. And "mercy and grace" combined with your favorite pet sins to get you through the week. Then back to church or home group for more "mercy and grace". But never (if ever) talk about obedience. Very little talk about holiness, and if there is talk about holiness it is discussed as a suggestion. Very little talk about taking up your cross. Very little talk about "if you love me obey me". In fact very little talk about whether or not we are even doing the will of God in our lives.

And I'll tell you something else, it's easy for a bunch of Christian internet posters to post their comments that they think are so insightful and believe that they are in the will of God and submitted to God, but are they really?

Are we going to take this subject of obedience seriously? Or will just a little more "mercy and grace" teaching and preaching make everything alright?

Thanks,
Endzone

I agree with you that obedience is not easy for any of us. I was also a rebellious teen and it was mostly because rebellion is easier then submission. This is why most people "take the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction" as Jesus said, because its the easy option.

Christianity is hard work, self dicipline & sacrifice. Obedience should be taken very seriously because for any who “practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” Hebrews 10:26-31

Mercy and forgiveness is set aside for those who are 'excercising faith' which means its for those who are 'doing' what is required of their faith. For those who willfully sin and keep sinning, they will not recieve Gods mercy....we have to take responsibility for our actions and we will be held accountable for them.

 

[Endzone]

Alright Pegg, I curious to know where you grew up?

Alright, let me ask you a question. Are the addicted who are struggling to get free willfully sinning? I think nearly every Christian has this experience when they get saved. And that is certain sins and habits just fall off of them, but others are a struggle to get free from. Cussing was a habit that just disappeared from me when I got saved. The porn stuff though, man, what an ongoing battle.

I've found that God's mercies never come to an end just like Jeremiah says. But we certainly reap what we sow, and I've found that the Lord has allowed me to reap very harshly sometimes for my sins. The Lord kind of gets fed up with my continual sinning even though I always cry and ask forgiveness and say I want out. There is a passage in Ezekiel where the Lord says, OK, I'll just let you reap what you have sown and be filled with your own ways rather than have to restore your soul every time.

I agree with your comments about living the Christian life. But there is the "you can't do it in your own strength" crowd and the "It wont happen till God wants it to happen" crowd. I agree with those statements, but they can become an excuse to sin. It is also true that like Paul said, we should beat our bodies and bring it into subjection. That takes work. That is something we do. We have not yet resisted unto blood striving against sin. The church is missing this big time. That kind of message wont bring a big offering. People would much rather hear mercy and grace.

I agree with you that obedience is not easy for any of us. I was also a rebellious teen and it was mostly because rebellion is easier then submission. This is why most people "take the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction" as Jesus said, because its the easy option.

Christianity is hard work, self dicipline & sacrifice. Obedience should be taken very seriously because for any who “practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” Hebrews 10:26-31

Mercy and forgiveness is set aside for those who are 'excercising faith' which means its for those who are 'doing' what is required of their faith. For those who willfully sin and keep sinning, they will not recieve Gods mercy....we have to take responsibility for our actions and we will be held accountable for them.

 

[brionne]

Alright Pegg, I curious to know where you grew up?

Im from Australia and grew up in Sydney.

Alright, let me ask you a question. Are the addicted who are struggling to get free willfully sinning? I think nearly every Christian has this experience when they get saved. And that is certain sins and habits just fall off of them, but others are a struggle to get free from. Cussing was a habit that just disappeared from me when I got saved. The porn stuff though, man, what an ongoing battle.

If some are struggling with ongoing addictions, but are actually 'trying' to overcome them, then I dont believe they are willfully sinning. Even the aposlte Paul acknowledged that he had traits which he had not fully got control of, yet he was still being used by God. Romans 7:23,24,25 This shows that God does not expect perfection of us, but he does expect us to make every effort to mentally fight the effects of sin in our life. This means we should not be giving in to sin, but rather we keep fighting the urge to sin.

I've found that God's mercies never come to an end just like Jeremiah says. But we certainly reap what we sow, and I've found that the Lord has allowed me to reap very harshly sometimes for my sins. The Lord kind of gets fed up with my continual sinning even though I always cry and ask forgiveness and say I want out. There is a passage in Ezekiel where the Lord says, OK, I'll just let you reap what you have sown and be filled with your own ways rather than have to restore your soul every time.

Its as you say, we are 'reaping what we sow'....God will not protect us from the consequences of our actions. But he will offer us mercy and forgiveness if we are trully repentant and strive to fight the urge to sin. The door is always open for us but its up to us to walk thru it and stay within it. That is how the value of Jesus sacrifice is transfered to us...its by Gods willingness to accept our repentance and grant us forgiveness.

I agree with your comments about living the Christian life. But there is the "you can't do it in your own strength" crowd and the "It wont happen till God wants it to happen" crowd. I agree with those statements, but they can become an excuse to sin. It is also true that like Paul said, we should beat our bodies and bring it into subjection. That takes work. That is something we do. We have not yet resisted unto blood striving against sin. The church is missing this big time. That kind of message wont bring a big offering. People would much rather hear mercy and grace.

its true that we cannot live a christian life on our own. We need knowlege, reason, spirit and good associates who also live a christian life. But sometimes we will fall and that is to be expected because we are imperfect, but if we have a good solid base to come back to, then we are more likely to be successful in maintain our relationship with God.
My church certainly doesnt preach mercy and grace and nothing else. I was disfellowshiped for wrongdoing and I'll tell you right now that it was the most merciful action God has ever given me because its what brought me back to him. Sometimes we need a firm hand in order to help us back on our feet.

All churchs should administer discipline as set out by the apostles. That discipline is to remove wrongdoers from the congregation in order to lead them to repentence. Its not up to the church to forgive us, its up to the church to keep us on the right track and I think your right in that this is where most church's fail. Rather then help the flock to keep on the straight and narrow path, they make christianity too easy by ignoring the importance of obedience and true repentance.

 

[fivesense]

Hello Endzone

Interesting post.

And although I fully agree with you, about the importance of “stressing” obedience, in a Church setting, the internet is a whole different animal.

In Church(your Church or my Church), we are dealing with folks who are born again, and they need to be reminded of how important it is for them to follow the Lord’s instructions, so that He will bless them.

But, here on the internet, we face a totally different demographic.
--------------------------------------------------
The internet is like the sidewalk.
And here on the sidewalk, you will find all kinds of people with all kinds of ideas about God and the Bible, all professing to be saved.

Now Jesus made it very clear.........
Matthew 7:13-14
V.13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
V.14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The vast majority of people, are going to die and go to hell.

And in light of........
Matthew 7:21-23
V.21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
V.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
V.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is clear, that there are going to be a lot of religious people, who will go to hell.
--------------------------------------------------
Therefore, I respectfully disagree, about the importance of stressing obedience in a setting like this.
What people on the internet(sidewalk), need to hear most, is “the true way of salvation”.

Now I know that this won’t be all that popular, but it’s what people really need.

Besides it not being all that popular, it is not the truth for today. What the OP and this response is, is 21st century Circumcision religion. It is works oriented and based upon the flesh. It does not please God, does not lead anyone to salvation, denies the Cross of Christ, rejects God's justification of the irreverent apart from works, leads to self-righteousness, marginalizes our Apostle Paul to nearly useless, and leads to more personal sin and delusion. As Paul has said, Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is only by mercy and grace that anyone can serve God. He called and chose and JUSTIFIED those He called, in spite of their sinful condition. It is foolishness and ignorance to believe that being saved by grace through faith, somehow goes back to works of the flesh to maintain that which came out of God gratuitously. It mocks God's mercy to believe works somehow enter into it at any point. What is in man to stand and say, I will do right to please God, when a whole nation could not do so over the centuries? Can it not be seen that it is impossible, beside the Holy Writings saying it is impossible?

Give it up, you who would be in right standing with God through the works of your flesh, your "righteous" acts and words. If there is any good thing in you, it does not stem from yourself, it comes from God through Christ, to whom you have been crucified and died. You are dead people, dead. It is not possible to do any good thing apart from Christ and His Spirit. Anything else is a joke. A terrible one at that.

Endzone, you must ask yourself, Have I been baptized into death? Or, am I hanging on to my life, messed up and impossible to change.
Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we
should not serve sin.
Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Do not chide those who have come into a full knowledge of the grace and mercy of God. They know they would be lost without it, and they can do nothing right or pleasing to God unless they are powerfully operating in their spirits. When you finally give up hope of standing on your flesh merits by "discipleship" or obedience, or whatever circumcision activity seems best to remain in control, seek the grace and mercy of God for your redemption. You may be elect, you may not. That is God's concern. Mine is that you recognize the Cross of Christ and what it means for us. His suffering, humiliation, crucifixion, and death, it all is ours as well.

I guarantee nothing will change for the better without the mercy and grace from above to intervene.

fivesense

 

[jiggyfly]

I guarantee nothing will change for the better without the mercy and grace from above to intervene.

fivesense

Good post Fivesense, I especially like this last sentence. This truth is very evident in Paul's life, he was very obedient to the law and disciplined by the scriptures yet he counted it as garbage compared to a relationship with Christ based on the wonderful mercy and grace of Father.

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

 

[fivesense]

I agree with you that obedience is not easy for any of us. I was also a rebellious teen and it was mostly because rebellion is easier then submission. This is why most people "take the wide and spacious road leading off into destruction" as Jesus said, because its the easy option.

Christianity is hard work, self dicipline & sacrifice. Obedience should be taken very seriously because for any who “practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment.” Hebrews 10:26-31

Mercy and forgiveness is set aside for those who are 'excercising faith' which means its for those who are 'doing' what is required of their faith. For those who willfully sin and keep sinning, they will not recieve Gods mercy....we have to take responsibility for our actions and we will be held accountable for them.

Pegg, Pegg, Pegg. Have you not read the heading on that letter? It is addressed to Hebrews. Although it is not the inspired title, the contents and subjects warrant it. Neither you nor I, or any other Gentile, is mentioned anywhere in that epistle. It is for those who believed on Christ as Jews, and it is a letter addressed to them to encourage them. The preaching of Peter after Pentecost went unheeded by the majority of Israel, and the Twelve ended up dying or in exile, the Kingdom failing to appear. It was a letter of encouragment to those who still believed, but did not know what to do next.

As members of the Body of Christ, it is good to study this epistle to the Jews, as it is packed with wisdom and the truth of God to Israel. We will learn much from its contents, and glorify God by knowing Him better. Nevertheless, its injuctions, commands, summaries and threats do not belong to us. The whole of it belongs to Israel.

We have been justified and glorified with the calling. God did it, not us. He will keep it, not us. He will get the praise for it, not us.
Do not for a moment think that what this epistle teaches the Jews, will work for us. It doesn't. To apply the teachings and precepts of Hebrews to ourselves is to diminish what we already have and share with the Christ of God in heaven.

fivesense

Good post Fivesense, I especially like this last sentence. This truth is very evident in Paul's life, he was very obedient to the law and disciplined by the scriptures yet he counted it as garbage compared to a relationship with Christ based on the wonderful mercy and grace of Father.

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Now where's the freewill in that kind of a deal, where God imprisons everyone? Are you sure it says that? That would make God kind of a mischief maker of sorts, toying with us, locking us up in stubbornness against our will, that He may have mercy on all.

I guess in the final analysis, He is taking responsibility for it, I mean giving out mercy to all and not just some, so He can be All in all eventually...

There's that darn "all" word again. That one always makes me uncomfortable.

fivesense.

 

[jiggyfly]

Now where's the freewill in that kind of a deal, where God imprisons everyone? Are you sure it says that? That would make God kind of a mischief maker of sorts, toying with us, locking us up in stubbornness against our will, that He may have mercy on all.

I guess in the final analysis, He is taking responsibility for it, I mean giving out mercy to all and not just some, so He can be All in all eventually...

There's that darn "all" word again. That one always makes me uncomfortable.

fivesense.

Yes indeed such a small word yet enormous expression.

 

[Endzone]

fivesense your judgment of me is completely false, and you are talking like a nut case--which a lot of you on this board are quite frankly. You think I don't know you can't live the Christian life in your own strength? You think I don't know we need mercy and grace? But a lot of Christians in the church today have turned that into a license to sin. The church is actually encouraging them to sin! Paul says in the New Testament "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Besides it not being all that popular, it is not the truth for today. What the OP and this response is, is 21st century Circumcision religion. It is works oriented and based upon the flesh. It does not please God, does not lead anyone to salvation, denies the Cross of Christ, rejects God's justification of the irreverent apart from works, leads to self-righteousness, marginalizes our Apostle Paul to nearly useless, and leads to more personal sin and delusion. As Paul has said, Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is only by mercy and grace that anyone can serve God. He called and chose and JUSTIFIED those He called, in spite of their sinful condition. It is foolishness and ignorance to believe that being saved by grace through faith, somehow goes back to works of the flesh to maintain that which came out of God gratuitously. It mocks God's mercy to believe works somehow enter into it at any point. What is in man to stand and say, I will do right to please God, when a whole nation could not do so over the centuries? Can it not be seen that it is impossible, beside the Holy Writings saying it is impossible?

Give it up, you who would be in right standing with God through the works of your flesh, your "righteous" acts and words. If there is any good thing in you, it does not stem from yourself, it comes from God through Christ, to whom you have been crucified and died. You are dead people, dead. It is not possible to do any good thing apart from Christ and His Spirit. Anything else is a joke. A terrible one at that.

Endzone, you must ask yourself, Have I been baptized into death? Or, am I hanging on to my life, messed up and impossible to change.
Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we
should not serve sin.
Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Do not chide those who have come into a full knowledge of the grace and mercy of God. They know they would be lost without it, and they can do nothing right or pleasing to God unless they are powerfully operating in their spirits. When you finally give up hope of standing on your flesh merits by "discipleship" or obedience, or whatever circumcision activity seems best to remain in control, seek the grace and mercy of God for your redemption. You may be elect, you may not. That is God's concern. Mine is that you recognize the Cross of Christ and what it means for us. His suffering, humiliation, crucifixion, and death, it all is ours as well.

I guarantee nothing will change for the better without the mercy and grace from above to intervene.

fivesense

Thanks Pegg for your comments. I have visited Melbourne/Geelong in the late 80s. I really enjoyed the visit.

It sounds like you did go to a very unique church there that wasn't just all "mercy and grace". It also sounds to me like you did not allow yourself to become bitter about it but rather use it as an opportunity to sanctify yourself.

 

[fivesense]

fivesense your judgment of me is completely false, and you are talking like a nut case--which a lot of you on this board are quite frankly. You think I don't know you can't live the Christian life in your own strength? You think I don't know we need mercy and grace? But a lot of Christians in the church today have turned that into a license to sin. The church is actually encouraging them to sin! Paul says in the New Testament "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

You are mistaken, Endzone, if you believe I have rendered any judgment of you that is false. I did not address you in any particular way other than to rely on God. If your response is to defend and malign with slurs like "nut case" and make broad sweeping remarks to include others not mentioned, then apparently you have been offended. I appologize for inadvertantly provoking this in you. I did not realize you would personalize the issue. In one of your posts you spoke of the many difficulties you had with unsubmitted portions of your life. I deem those occurances to be a result of failing to walk in the Spirit of Christ which sets us free from sin's dominion. I was addressing that portion, though not directly. I find that such struggles typically result in not allowing the truth of God to firmly establish itself in the heart and mind, and that there is something else that holds us captive to sin's grasp. In your case, I believe it to be the conflict with law and grace. By holding to the notion that resisting sin unto blood is the answer, the power of grace to eliminate sin's hold is neutered. By appealing to anything other than the grace and mercy of God, we will always seek to serve God in our flesh to make Him "happy" or "pleased" with us. This is not the case. There is nothing that can change His opinion or thoughts of us, not sin, not failure, not perfect obedience, since we have already been declared not guilty of offenses past, present and to come.

Paul said that where sin abounded, grace did superabound:
Ro 5:20 And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,
Ro 5:21 that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord
Ro 6:1 . What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 let it not be! we who died to the sin-how shall we still live in it?

The power of grace to overwhelm is the message of Paul's evengel. It was contrary to what the Lord and the Twelve were preaching, which was salvation through works and faith. In Paul's gospel, it is faith alone that justifies. The Jewish believers were to live on in the flesh, seeking the promise of the Kingdom reign on earth according to the Prophets, and the Gentiles and Jews chosen by God for the Body are to live by co-death and co-crucifixion with the Christ in spirit.

Grace is supplied to reign and direct our lives, just as sin once ruled and controlled us. Grace, once apprehended, overwhelms the sinfulness in us all. It is powerful unto those who believe. For the ones who choose to reject this truth, and apply other means to be conformed to the image of the Son, there will be naught but disappointment and failure in the battle against sin in the heart and flesh.

fivesense

 

[brionne]

Pegg, Pegg, Pegg. Have you not read the heading on that letter? It is addressed to Hebrews. Although it is not the inspired title, the contents and subjects warrant it. Neither you nor I, or any other Gentile, is mentioned anywhere in that epistle. It is for those who believed on Christ as Jews, and it is a letter addressed to them to encourage them. The preaching of Peter after Pentecost went unheeded by the majority of Israel, and the Twelve ended up dying or in exile, the Kingdom failing to appear. It was a letter of encouragment to those who still believed, but did not know what to do next.

As members of the Body of Christ, it is good to study this epistle to the Jews, as it is packed with wisdom and the truth of God to Israel. We will learn much from its contents, and glorify God by knowing Him better. Nevertheless, its injuctions, commands, summaries and threats do not belong to us. The whole of it belongs to Israel.

We have been justified and glorified with the calling. God did it, not us. He will keep it, not us. He will get the praise for it, not us.
Do not for a moment think that what this epistle teaches the Jews, will work for us. It doesn't. To apply the teachings and precepts of Hebrews to ourselves is to diminish what we already have and share with the Christ of God in heaven.

fivesense

God has the same standards for gentiles as he does for the jews.... the gentiles were made into one body along with the believing jews

And the laws of God were to be written on the hearts of 'all' mankind...not only jews.

 

[fivesense]

God has the same standards for gentiles as he does for the jews.... the gentiles were made into one body along with the believing jews

And the laws of God were to be written on the hearts of 'all' mankind...not only jews.

Lets' look at this, Pegg.

AV Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

He will make a covenant. With whom? It says, "the house of Israel". In whose inward parts? Israel's. Who is going to be "my people" Israel.

The uniqueness of God's prophetic utterances is the supernatural display of them specifically being fulfilled, not Nostradamus-like.

He did not say, "the nations", did He?

Why change the word of God? In an attempt to "spiritualize" it to fit theology? That somehow the Body is "spiritual Israel", a falsehood?

If He meant everybody, our God would have said so, or He was being hidden and vague, which I cannot subscribe to.

I believe God.

fivesense

 

[gator347]

Do you love God or not?

What were the two most important Commandments according to Jesus?

I loved my parents. When I was young my parents wanted my obedience but they cherished my love. I could have been in jail but my mom would have still loved me.

Did the thief on the cross make it to heaven?

Those of you who obey God just to get into heaven are sad.

I obey God because I love HIM. I do my best so I don’t disappoint HIM. People, this is easy. You have two rules to follow. Funny thing, is that all you hardliners are the worst offenders. Can you say Pharisee? – Sure, I knew you could?

 

[Foreigner]

I have to go with Gator on this one.


"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your mind, and love one another as yourself."


If you love God - truly love Him - the obedience portion of your relationship works itself out.

 

[fivesense]

Foreigner and Gator have shut me up. I'm amazed.

fivesense

 

[brionne]

Lets' look at this, Pegg.

He will make a covenant. With whom? It says, "the house of Israel". In whose inward parts? Israel's. Who is going to be "my people" Israel.

He did not say, "the nations", did He?

Why change the word of God? In an attempt to "spiritualize" it to fit theology? That somehow the Body is "spiritual Israel", a falsehood?

If He meant everybody, our God would have said so, or He was being hidden and vague, which I cannot subscribe to.

I believe God.

fivesense

Paul, an isrealite by birth, was aware that the promise was made to the 'house of Isreal' and he spoke to gentile christians about this in Romans chpt 9.

However, in Romans 9:6,7,8 he stresses the fact that "not all who spring from Isreal are trully Isreal" but the 'seed' are the 'children of the promise'
He clarifies who the 'children of the promise' are in Galatians 4:28 He was speaking to Gentile christians for in Gal 5:2 he discusses cirmucision and says "if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU" So he wasnt speaking to Jews here but rather uncircumcised believers.

Now, if you want to hold to the belief that the 'house of Isreal' only applies to a natural born Jews you are welcome to do that, but I will stick to the bible in this regard and to the writings of Paul who was inspired by holy spirit to write:

Galatians 3:29 "Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

 

[logabe]

Paul, an isrealite by birth, was aware that the promise was made to the 'house of Isreal' and he spoke to gentile christians about this in Romans chpt 9.

However, in Romans 9:6,7,8 he stresses the fact that "not all who spring from Isreal are trully Isreal" but the 'seed' are the 'children of the promise'
He clarifies who the 'children of the promise' are in Galatians 4:28 He was speaking to Gentile christians for in Gal 5:2 he discusses cirmucision and says "if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU" So he wasnt speaking to Jews here but rather uncircumcised believers.

Now, if you want to hold to the belief that the 'house of Isreal' only applies to a natural born Jews you are welcome to do that, but I will stick to the bible in this regard and to the writings of Paul who was inspired by holy spirit to write

:
Galatians 3:29 "Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise."

Wow...that's very good Pegg.

Like Jacob, we become Israelites by a change in our character.
We must all learn the same lesson that Jacob learned. It is the
lesson that we are not more powerful than God. It is the lesson
that we should have faith in the sovereignty of God and not try to
help Him fulfill His promises with a little help from the flesh. God
does not need us to lie or defraud others, for whoever does these
things is only a Jacobite and not an Israelite.

We see, then, that Jacob was not born an Israelite. He became
an Israelite later in life after learning a very important lesson in
the sovereignty of God. Hence, the term “Israel” was not a matter
of genealogy, but a testimony of character. It was only later that
Jacob-Israel's descendants were called “Israelites,” to denote
that they were physically descended from the man renamed Israel.

Logabe