Obscure figures of speech...
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The typical JW argument: The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what the WatchTower says it means.
- Jun 22, 2015
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So you are not able to find a figure of speech which Jesus used?
You have hit that wall again!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Have you ever considered starting a figure of speech religion.
United Cliché International
- Jun 22, 2015
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Another figure of speech which we saw in Luke 2:32 regarding light we also see in John the Baptists cry "behold the lamb of God". John 1:29
The apostle Peter further builds on the metaphor in writing that we are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot.
The Christian immediate identifies with the figure of speech and the truth expressed by it.
Jesus is not literally a lamb! But the figure of a lamb expresses many truths about Christ particularly those attributes consistent with a literal lamb.
Again, the use of fire in Matthew 25:41 is referencing a time of judgement - an event to take place at a future time.
So we have seen:
Light = Jesus = Salvation
Lamb = Jesus = Salvation
Fire = Judgement = Consumed in the grave
As we go we will keep adding to these figures which Jesus said was his chosen method of teaching John 16:25
The apostle Peter further builds on the metaphor in writing that we are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot.
The Christian immediate identifies with the figure of speech and the truth expressed by it.
Jesus is not literally a lamb! But the figure of a lamb expresses many truths about Christ particularly those attributes consistent with a literal lamb.
Again, the use of fire in Matthew 25:41 is referencing a time of judgement - an event to take place at a future time.
So we have seen:
Light = Jesus = Salvation
Lamb = Jesus = Salvation
Fire = Judgement = Consumed in the grave
As we go we will keep adding to these figures which Jesus said was his chosen method of teaching John 16:25
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- Jun 22, 2015
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Christians believe the figures Jesus adopted spoke of conscious eternal punishment which they believe are portrayed by such vivid terms as Gehenna of fire (literal rubbish tip on fire), weeping and gnashing of teeth, fire unquenchable, chains of darkness, lake of fire burning with brimstone. Clearly any one in their right mind can see Jesus is using figures of speech? Yes?
It seams the first step in overcoming this error is stating openly that these words are figures of speech - its like this acknowledgment is first base in getting some form of understanding of the text.
The figure is designed to portray something fearful and awful. Acknowledging them to be figurative should lead the believer to the reality. Of course the reality is to be forgotten - to have no memory of that person - to totally cease to exist.
So Amos 9:2 reveals this Hell is a place you can dig to get there (yes, grave!)
Proverbs 23:14 shows the soul (life) of a person can be redeemed from there.
All people descend to the grave (hell, hades, Gehenna etc)
Not all will come forth from hell Daniel 12:2
Psalms 49:15 shows Hell (grave) has power. (again power is a figure of speech for the grave doesn't actually have real power only that it holds people there if there is no intervention (resurrection)
When we start looking for figures of speech we find they are all over Scripture and very helpful in understanding the hidden wisdom of the text.
F2F
It seams the first step in overcoming this error is stating openly that these words are figures of speech - its like this acknowledgment is first base in getting some form of understanding of the text.
The figure is designed to portray something fearful and awful. Acknowledging them to be figurative should lead the believer to the reality. Of course the reality is to be forgotten - to have no memory of that person - to totally cease to exist.
So Amos 9:2 reveals this Hell is a place you can dig to get there (yes, grave!)
Proverbs 23:14 shows the soul (life) of a person can be redeemed from there.
All people descend to the grave (hell, hades, Gehenna etc)
Not all will come forth from hell Daniel 12:2
Psalms 49:15 shows Hell (grave) has power. (again power is a figure of speech for the grave doesn't actually have real power only that it holds people there if there is no intervention (resurrection)
When we start looking for figures of speech we find they are all over Scripture and very helpful in understanding the hidden wisdom of the text.
F2F
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Amen Jesus!
Satan LOVES it when his children convince people that there is no "everlasting fire"!
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Amen Jesus!
Satan LOVES it when his children convince people that there is no "everlasting fire"!
- Jun 22, 2015
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Okay I'll bite!
So there are 5 discernible figures of speech in this verse you have quoted.
1.
2
3.
4.
5.
Try listing them and then provide an interpretation to their meaning.
Enjoy.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
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That was for Jack!
As you can see the Scripture is written in a way that requires discernment of the obscure figures Jesus used and playing that game is a matter of knowing or not knowing!
We not what you have chosen.
- Jun 22, 2015
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@Grailhunter
It should be acknowledged I have dealt with two of your listed quotes and on both occasions you have failed to demonstrate what they mean and you have failed to engage with the figures of speech they contain. This shows me what type of Christian you are and this should be a concern for you.
F2F
It should be acknowledged I have dealt with two of your listed quotes and on both occasions you have failed to demonstrate what they mean and you have failed to engage with the figures of speech they contain. This shows me what type of Christian you are and this should be a concern for you.
F2F
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No reason to deal...believe the scriptures....don't explain so many away....don't twist them....Yeshua is a full fledged God.
- Jun 22, 2015
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John 16:29 is really interesting!!!
“not in parables.” or “not in metaphors.”
How are the disciples’ reply to Jesus now you are speaking plainly and not in obscure figures of speech to be understood?
Their claim to understand seems a bit impulsive! It is difficult to believe that the disciples have really understood the full implications of Jesus’ words, although it is true that he spoke to them plainly and not figuratively in John 16:26-28. The disciples will not fully understand all that Jesus has said to them until after his resurrection, when the Holy Spirit will give them insight and understanding (John 16:13)
What also of interest is how so many Christians do not seek to understand the hidden meaning in Christ's teaching today. How many times have you seen "just accept the Bible for what it states"or, "Don't twist the text"...little do they know they remain in the darkness when they take this approach.
We have seen a couple come unstuck with the figure of fire in Matthew 25:41.
Here is another:
Matthew 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again?
Salt being the figure of speech. We are not literally salt but the imagery speaks of a more profound meaning - a reality which is hard to put into words.
So far we have seen; Light, Lamb, Fire and now Salt used as obscure figures of speech.
Who would like to define the properties of salt and how they relate to a believers life?
F2F
“not in parables.” or “not in metaphors.”
How are the disciples’ reply to Jesus now you are speaking plainly and not in obscure figures of speech to be understood?
Their claim to understand seems a bit impulsive! It is difficult to believe that the disciples have really understood the full implications of Jesus’ words, although it is true that he spoke to them plainly and not figuratively in John 16:26-28. The disciples will not fully understand all that Jesus has said to them until after his resurrection, when the Holy Spirit will give them insight and understanding (John 16:13)
What also of interest is how so many Christians do not seek to understand the hidden meaning in Christ's teaching today. How many times have you seen "just accept the Bible for what it states"or, "Don't twist the text"...little do they know they remain in the darkness when they take this approach.
We have seen a couple come unstuck with the figure of fire in Matthew 25:41.
Here is another:
Matthew 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its flavor, how can it be made salty again?
Salt being the figure of speech. We are not literally salt but the imagery speaks of a more profound meaning - a reality which is hard to put into words.
So far we have seen; Light, Lamb, Fire and now Salt used as obscure figures of speech.
Who would like to define the properties of salt and how they relate to a believers life?
F2F
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
Hmm interesting well God has power to do things with only His breath and nothing else. I would think Jesus could do the same.
Ecclesiastes 12
6Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring and the wheel is broken at the well, 7before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8“Futility of futilities,” says the Teacher. “Everything is futile!”…
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We, meaning Kingdom Hall?So far we have determined the Christian can interpret these figures of speech:
Light
Darkness
Lamb
Salt
Lion
BUT NOT
Fire :hmm:
How so?
Kingdom Hall / Hallway to Hell fire!
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
- Jun 22, 2015
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Okay so lets try a personification
Romans 6:23
"The wages of sin is death"
Wages is the figure in use...as a person goes to work the consequence of working is you are paid wages. Here the consequence of sin is death.
We die for 2 reasons
1. We transgress God laws we die 1 John 3:4
2. We die because we inherit mortality1 Corinthians 15:22
Both of which cause us to return to the dust of the earth.
Personification uses figures so we can easily identify with the idea being conveyed.
Jesus used the figure of fire in Matthew 25:41 to the same affect. Judgement for those unworthy is likened to fire - not there wont be a literal fire at the judgement but the intensity of the judgements will be likened to a burning fire which will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth.
F2F
Romans 6:23
"The wages of sin is death"
Wages is the figure in use...as a person goes to work the consequence of working is you are paid wages. Here the consequence of sin is death.
We die for 2 reasons
1. We transgress God laws we die 1 John 3:4
2. We die because we inherit mortality1 Corinthians 15:22
Both of which cause us to return to the dust of the earth.
Personification uses figures so we can easily identify with the idea being conveyed.
Jesus used the figure of fire in Matthew 25:41 to the same affect. Judgement for those unworthy is likened to fire - not there wont be a literal fire at the judgement but the intensity of the judgements will be likened to a burning fire which will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth.
F2F
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