I'll take the Literal Bible over your interpretations any day.Over recent months covering various subjects it has become plain to many in this forum that Christians generally tend to have a bias to reading God's word literally and inferring meaning to the text never intended by the author. The reason for this thread is to discuss study techniques which can assist the reader with interpreting the text correctly.
Let's begin with an example of which there will be hundreds before this thread is done.
Take Matthew 25:41 as a hot potato at the moment:
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say •to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
Compare this verse with Jesus' words
John 16:25 I have told you these things in obscure figures of speech; a time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in obscure figures, but will tell you plainly about the Father.
So it's no secret Jesus spoke in parable and figures of speech to conceal hidden things from those not worthy to receive them and to encourage the Elect to study to show themselves approved in the searching out wisdom and truth.
Firstly, I have encountered a number of members who dont know what figurative language is or how its used in the Bible.
In Matthew 25:41 we have 3 pieces of information which need unpacking.
1. Eternal fire
2. Devil
3. Angels
Each of these are not literal in their meaning and are obscure figure of speech to teach hidden wisdom to the inquiring mind.
A plain reading of that verse offers you no understanding at all. You need to look behind the symbols to understand what the Lord is teaching.
Here is an extremely well accepted example of figurative language.
Revelation 3:15-16
You are neither cold nor hot:
This was a judgment on a churches spiritual condition.
The cold or hot is not literal, it's figurative.
The issue with the modern Christians is they dont have the tools to discern whats figurative and what's literal.
I hope to go through a number of examples showing how to identify and interpret them.
For those (lukewarm) who believe Jesus was talking about their literal body temperature; please resist from contributing to this thread (thank you)- Revelation 3:16 is speaking to those
who are indifferent, ineffective, impotent and who are not literally lukewarm!
Matthew 25:41 is just one of hundreds upon hundreds of verses the Lord used in obscure figurative language...lets see if we can decipher them in their correct context!
People in this forum guilty of misinterpreting figures of speech are hereby named:
@Grailhunter
@Aunty Jane
@dad
@Jack
Lets not add to this list shall we....be great to remove names!
F2F
Obscure figures of speech...
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- Jun 22, 2015
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So your initial claim was wrong.
No need to ask me - the issues in your interpratation have been well established and proven - it's up to you to learn and grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I am not a JW for the tenth time...and if I was who cares...if you hold error and you cannot defend your truth you need to go away and search for yourself these things.
Grailhunter in another thread has the same issue as you do and she is grappling with understanding Christ's obscure language as you did with your ark thread.
She can discern light as being the Lord Jesus Christ from Luke 2:32 but cannot discern the meaning of fire in Matthew 25:41.
Can you see the problem?
The notions applied to fire are not found in the Bible but light is clearly defined - well fire is also it's just an unwillingness to identify it.
F2F
You will care when you stand before THE Judge, Jesus.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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dad
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Not at all.
Your rejection of what the bibles says as true is not my problem. The scene with the temple in heaven was not offered as some parable.
Great. Apparently some posters have said the place is infested with them, and with your unsound positions, I thought it was worth checking.
That issue is belief versus unbelief. Sorry you side with the latter.
So what?
No.
You seem to be all over the map.
Let's see, Jesus said the rich man died but was alive and tormented in the fire. I believe Jesus, not Satan's messengers trying to lead us to Hell fire.
dad
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- Jun 22, 2015
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There are instances in the Word of God where there are compelling reasons not to interpret a text literally such as the figure of Light in Luke 2:32. It would be foolish to suggest the natural element of light has come to the Gentiles to save them. So far @dad & @Grailhunter have both agreed with this principle.
What's important when dealing with figures of speech is to interpret the figure in it's correct context - what is the figure associated with i.e Luke 2:32 Salvation, Gentiles provide us the clue that Light refers to Jesus Christ.
You need to pay due attention to connotations, as well as denotations, of the terms involved in the figure of speech.
Read the figure of speech carefully for all of its import; do not “skim read” figures of speech in the Bible! For example fire which is used in Matthew 25:41 can be skimmed over assuming fire = literal place of torment = eternal suffering.
This is a trap.
The fire is not literal (first mistake!)
The symbolic meaning of the fire is!
In this verse we have other figures used, so the verse is highly obscure which is the Lord's approach to most of teachings.
In cases where an explanatory propositional statement follows a figure of speech, interpret it in the light of the propositional statement.
Pay careful attention to contexts—immediate and far, linguistic and historical—in the interpretation of figures of speech.
So lets put up Matthew 25:41 and apply these rules.
25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil (false accusers) and his angels (messengers)!
What is the context?
What are the figures of Fire; Devil; Angels represent at the time of his judgements in the earth?
Always remember Jesus made it very clear that he was teaching in these figures of speech so we shouldn't be alarmed if we dont understand them.
What's important when dealing with figures of speech is to interpret the figure in it's correct context - what is the figure associated with i.e Luke 2:32 Salvation, Gentiles provide us the clue that Light refers to Jesus Christ.
You need to pay due attention to connotations, as well as denotations, of the terms involved in the figure of speech.
Read the figure of speech carefully for all of its import; do not “skim read” figures of speech in the Bible! For example fire which is used in Matthew 25:41 can be skimmed over assuming fire = literal place of torment = eternal suffering.
This is a trap.
The fire is not literal (first mistake!)
The symbolic meaning of the fire is!
In this verse we have other figures used, so the verse is highly obscure which is the Lord's approach to most of teachings.
In cases where an explanatory propositional statement follows a figure of speech, interpret it in the light of the propositional statement.
Pay careful attention to contexts—immediate and far, linguistic and historical—in the interpretation of figures of speech.
So lets put up Matthew 25:41 and apply these rules.
25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil (false accusers) and his angels (messengers)!
What is the context?
What are the figures of Fire; Devil; Angels represent at the time of his judgements in the earth?
Always remember Jesus made it very clear that he was teaching in these figures of speech so we shouldn't be alarmed if we dont understand them.
dad
Well-Known Member
Being away from Jesus, which equals tomented. Are you working toward some point?
dad
Well-Known Member
A spiritual light is as real as physical light. In fact the world was lightened by God in the beginning (and you can't try to make that mean opened the understanding of people as there were no people!) So much actual light plants grew fine before the sun was created and there was still day and night.
So that was not a figure of speech so much as a description that exceeds mere physical definition and fullness. New Jerusalem also will need no other light!So His light is more real than the physical light we see today.
Again, the spiritual meaning is deeper than just the physical fire we know but just as real. You do not get to wave it away as unreal.
Since the smell of brimstone is associated with hell, it is safe to assume that a lot of fire will be there as well. Yet it is the type of fire that does not make the body die.
One needs understanding to understand any statement from God. If one has this wisdom one will not be waving away or disbelieving much of the bible blaming it on symbolism or etc.
The context is that after Jesus returns some wicked people will be sent away to the place of torment. Lots of fire there spiritual and physical.
Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
It is given to us. Plain as the nose on our face.
Proverbs 8:9
They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
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Correct...but the figure of true light is being used to communicate the literal reality that Christ has come to the Gentiles.
Correct, literal fire is being used to describe a future reality which doesn't include actual fire.
So this is the type of non biblical assumptions one makes when trying to force a literal meaning to a figure of speech.
2 Timothy 4:17 is a blatant example. In no way at all can you make the Lion literal - its the meaning of the figure associated to a very real threat at that time which Paul was saved from.
The fire of Matthew 25:41 is significant of a coming event which is extensively spoken of in the NT though has nothing to do with literal fire.
For now it's sufficient enough to understand you have been given knowledge which isn't consistent with Jesus's teaching on the judgement and for now its obvious you dont hold that understanding of what judgement will be like for those who are rejected. Extreme language is used to demonstrate the severity of the outcome.
Hebrews 12:29 does not mean God is literally "on fire" or does it mean He is a Literal Consuming fire - the figure of speech here is the same as Matthew 25:41 which is why fire is commonly used to speak of Judgement.
Imagine what you could fabricate in your mind if you believe God was actually a fire? Yes, it would be ridiculous to push those notions upon the text - well that is what @Grailhunter is doing in this thread. They pick and choose which figures of speech they wish to force their doctrine upon without any qualification at all.
Surely you can see how big this subject is? We have fire, devil, angels being rejected etc and who has rightly divided the word of Truth to give a correct interpretation of the Lord's teaching?
What we know for sure, is nowhere in the NT is this place of fire literal or literally taught - it does not exist! ...only in the minds of confused Christians who have swallowed the false doctrine.
F2F
Grailhunter
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I just gave you a bunch of scriptures that clearly say fire, unquenchable fire, the hell of fire, as eternal punishment and eternal torment.....ya know pain! weeping and gnashing of teeth! Like I said I am just glad I do not have a religion where I have to explain away the Bible.
Light in the New Testament and other religious texts denote light as a beacon or guide a kin to enlightenment. To light the path of The Way.
As far as Yahweh described as fire.... "The Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night. Exodus 13:21
And in case you missed it the first time...
Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
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dad
Well-Known Member
No Jesus is the light of the world and lights every man that comes into the world. So the Light did come. His light did shine.
Says who? Brimstone..?
Calling the reality no biblical simply shows you have a lobotomized view of the book.
Death by lions was a common thing in Rome, no? How is it that Paul could never have faced such a reality? How would you know?
Brimstone. Do you think that that really means candy? If fire and brimstone are involved in hell, why would we think there was only freah air and cool breezes?
It is also used to describe stuff.
Yes, He is a consuming fire in many ways. When He slays the wicked for example. When He burns inside of us. etc. Obviously He is not the bad physical fire, but in the spirit, fire has reality also. Do you nor believe there is water in New Jerusalem or do you wave that away also?
When God as a Spirit came down on Pentecost what did we see? Ever heard of the burning bush?
Fire is a way to describe the burning torment of hell. It is a spiritual reality. There also may be some physical fire in that place and sulfur etc. Who knows? The lake of fire is not a frozen lake.
I guess when people have a burning desire to wave away reality of the bible, they know no bounds.
- Jun 22, 2015
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Correct, I'm not sure why you wrote this...we already agree????
The point being made is Luke 2:32 is not speaking of natural light but using natural light as a figure which speaks to Jesus Christ!
This is incoherent?
True but the death how ever it came is used by the symbol of the Lion.
Correct - fire and brimstone are used literally in Sodom & Gomorrah and thereafter used as a figure to describe future judgements on the nations.
Jude 1:7 2 Peter 2:6 Romans 9:29 and so on - however that does not mean God's future judgements will all be precisely as Sodom & Gomorrah. God has open the earth and swallowed people whole without the use of fire; so it falls on you to correctly identify the figure of speech and provide the correct interpretation.
So what I see you doing here is qualifying the figure of "consuming fire" which is the right thing to do. Tongues of fire came down and rested upon the Apostles because of the power and authority given to them from on high and the heat of the message would burn in those who received it.
So the figure of fire is in the positive sense and is not "literal fire"
That's the important point to take away - it's all about interpreting the symbol which you are starting to do.
Fire is a symbol for final judgement on a person's life for those found unworthy of immortality. The wicked are not given immortality that is only for the righteous!!!!
The wicked are sent to the grave (hell, hades etc) to remain their forever.
Ignorant comment given all we have looked at!
Here is a question regarding Matthew 25:41.
Have a look at the verses before it and after that verse.
Who are those being judged?
If you read it literally you must say the devil and his allies - this places you in a difficult position no doubt!!!
Can you see why?
F2F
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And that is all you have given me!
The issue grail is this:
1. You dont know how to explain a verse.
2. You are unable to use any tools Christ gave you to interpret them
3. As you do you copy and paste and assume an understanding merely because the word hell or fire is used. You dont have any interest in understanding figures of speech John 16:25
F2F
- Jun 22, 2015
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....So 2 Peter 2:6 actually provide us the answer to the figurative language of fire.
and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
Totally consumed!!!
No reference to eternal torment
No reference to literal burning place
No reference to them being rewarded with immortality
No reference to burning souls
So when reading Matthew 25:41 the image of fire can be seen in a historical example and as Gehenna which is a corruption of the Hebrew word Gai, a valley, and Hinnom, its name. Improperly rendered “hell” in the AV version.
In that case Jesus is referencing a literal place of fire to demonstrate the total destruction of the wicked at their judgement.
Nowhere in the Bible is a place of literal eternal fire given description.
F2F
and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
Totally consumed!!!
No reference to eternal torment
No reference to literal burning place
No reference to them being rewarded with immortality
No reference to burning souls
So when reading Matthew 25:41 the image of fire can be seen in a historical example and as Gehenna which is a corruption of the Hebrew word Gai, a valley, and Hinnom, its name. Improperly rendered “hell” in the AV version.
In that case Jesus is referencing a literal place of fire to demonstrate the total destruction of the wicked at their judgement.
Nowhere in the Bible is a place of literal eternal fire given description.
F2F
Grailhunter
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This is only an admission on your part that points 1 - 3 are correct...although this time you didn't copy and paste, well done here!
Here is a challenge for you.
Read John 16:25 and show me a figure of speech you believe Christ is talking about? Once you have found one...provide your interpretation.
It shouldn't be hard as Jesus admits its the only way he taught
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
This is only an admission on your part that points 1 - 3 are correct...although this time you didn't copy and paste, well done here!
Here is a challenge for you.
Read John 16:25 and show me a figure of speech you believe Christ is talking about? Once you have found one...provide your interpretation.
It shouldn't be hard as Jesus admits its the only way he taught
Hell is not a figure of speech....You are hilarious! It just does not take much to prove that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a joke.
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