Observable Personal Change is Not Required For Salvation.

[Jared42]

John 6:47 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that believes on me has everlasting life."

Titus 3:5 "He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Salvation and eternal life come at the moment one becomes born again by believing in the Name of the Lord Jesus as the incarnate Son of God.

Any observable change on that person's outward conduct unto Godliness is an afterfact, and not actually verifiable by any other person.

 

[Davy]

I strongly, strongly... disagree.

Even Christ's enemies will notice a change with a new believer on Christ Jesus.

Other believers that knew the person before will also notice a change in their behavior. It may not appear immediately at the moment of belief and baptism, but it will appear. And brethren need to also remember per Apostle Paul that The Holy Spirit gives different gifts according to one's calling.

I remember a father who had a young son told me he couldn't find anything his son was interested in, or any good at. Then his son joined the military, and they discovered he had a gift for languages, so they sent him to language school for at least four different languages. That's The Holy Spirit working, but it simply manifested at a certain time.

 

[Robert Gwin]

John 6:47 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that believes on me has everlasting life."

Titus 3:5 "He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Salvation and eternal life come at the moment one becomes born again by believing in the Name of the Lord Jesus as the incarnate Son of God.

Any observable change on that person's outward conduct unto Godliness is an afterfact, and not actually verifiable by any other person.

Only if you are perfect Jared. Personally I do not know any Christian who came in from the world that has not had to make very observable changes in their lives. Those who were raised Christian, it may be a bit harder to observe, but they all had to make changes as well, as we are not born perfect.

 

[Jared42]

What makes you assume a person has to "make changes" in order the be saved? It is not in Scripture, but only in the mouths of Professional Church Talkers.

 

[Jared42]

I strongly, strongly... disagree.

Even Christ's enemies will notice a change with a new believer on Christ Jesus.

Other believers that knew the person before will also notice a change in their behavior. It may not appear immediately at the moment of belief and baptism, but it will appear. And brethren need to also remember per Apostle Paul that The Holy Spirit gives different gifts according to one's calling.

I remember a father who had a young son told me he couldn't find anything his son was interested in, or any good at. Then his son joined the military, and they discovered he had a gift for languages, so they sent him to language school for at least four different languages. That's The Holy Spirit working, but it simply manifested at a certain time.

The fact that people might "notice" a change in a person who has received Christ does not mean that person has been saved by changing.

How is that logical thought process coming along?

 

[Davy]

What makes you assume a person has to "make changes" in order the be saved? It is not in Scripture, but only in the mouths of Professional Church Talkers.

Believing on Christ Jesus had better make changes in the new believer, otherwise one's belief isn't real.

Anyone... can just 'say' they believe on Jesus Christ, but a true believer will involuntarily prove it by their works.

Works don't save us, Faith on Jesus does; but works in Him are a natural by-product of our Faith on Christ Jesus.

 

[Davy]

The fact that people might "notice" a change in a person who has received Christ does not mean that person has been saved by changing.

How is that logical thought process coming along?

Well, I guess you missed what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 25 about the unprofitable servant. Here's a little lesson for you, so let's see what thought process you've fallen into...

Matt 25:25-30
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

In the parable, they represent Christ's servants, and the talents are tools to be used to go produce fruit. All the previous ones given more than one talent prospered, except this one servant that was given one talent.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.'

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Why would Jesus call that one "wicked and slothful"?

It's because to be 'in Christ', the believer can't help but want to work in service of Christ Jesus, and produce fruit in Him.

 

[Jared42]

Believing on Christ Jesus had better make changes in the new believer, otherwise one's belief isn't real.

Anyone... can just 'say' they believe on Jesus Christ, but a true believer will involuntarily prove it by their works.

Works don't save us, Faith on Jesus does; but works in Him are a natural by-product of our Faith on Christ Jesus.

How do you know when you are observing good works in someone else?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

What makes you assume a person has to "make changes" in order the be saved? It is not in Scripture, but only in the mouths of Professional Church Talkers.

Well since the "old nature" dies and we are "reborn" it is correct to say that we are totally changed since what was no longer is. ( that's not us doing that but the Spirit doing the changing)

After that the "physical manifestations" reflecting that "transformation" (high level of change) will take whatever time they take in whatever way they take.

 

[Jared42]

Well, I guess you missed what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 25 about the unprofitable servant. Here's a little lesson for you, so let's see what thought process you've fallen into...

Matt 25:25-30
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

In the parable, they represent Christ's servants, and the talents are tools to be used to go produce fruit. All the previous ones given more than one talent prospered, except this one servant that was given one talent.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.'

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Why would Jesus call that one "wicked and slothful"?

It's because to be 'in Christ', the believer can't help but want to work in service of Christ Jesus, and produce fruit in Him.

Let's use your help to complete this lesson.

Is that passage talking about Salvatiin

 

[Jared42]

Well, I guess you missed what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 25 about the unprofitable servant. Here's a little lesson for you, so let's see what thought process you've fallen into...

Matt 25:25-30
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

In the parable, they represent Christ's servants, and the talents are tools to be used to go produce fruit. All the previous ones given more than one talent prospered, except this one servant that was given one talent.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.'

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Why would Jesus call that one "wicked and slothful"?

It's because to be 'in Christ', the believer can't help but want to work in service of Christ Jesus, and produce fruit in Him.

Let's use your own ideas to complete this lesson.

Is Jesus in Matt. 25 talking about Salvation through the faithful use of talents?

 

[Davy]

The fact that people might "notice" a change in a person who has received Christ does not mean that person has been saved by changing.

How is that logical thought process coming along?

How is your LACK... of proper thought processing, since you obviously don't understand what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians about the manifesting of The Holy Spirit?

 

[Davy]

Let's use your help to complete this lesson.

Is that passage talking about Salvatiin

Just keep believing the hirelings that God did not call, and you'll eventually find out.

 

[Jared42]

How is your LACK... of proper thought processing, since you obviously don't understand what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians about the manifesting of The Holy Spirit?

I understand what Paul spoke of in 1Corinthians. That is why I do not try to fabricate what is not happening.

How correct is the thought process for "Pentecostals" to name themselves that when they do not replicate anything from Pentecost in Acts ch. 2?

You cannot answer.

 

[Jared42]

Well since the "old nature" dies and we are "reborn" it is correct to say that we are totally changed since what was no longer is. ( that's not us doing that but the Spirit doing the changing)

After that the "physical manifestations" reflecting that "transformation" (high level of change) will take whatever time they take in whatever way they take.

 

[Jared42]

Have you been qualified and assigned to verify spiritual rebirth in anyone other than yourself?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Have you been qualified and assigned to verify spiritual rebirth in anyone other than yourself?

not verify but have had discernment of authenticity of a few when the situation required it.