Olivet Discourse present or future?

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Eternally Grateful

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hmmmm. I think if we are satisfied with that answer we are at an impasse in our understanding because 'perfection' whatever that is, also needs to be defined.
It was defined

Commit one sin and you are not perfect

perfection means you have never commited one sin.

perfection according to the law means you have never broken one command..

perfection according to the minister of death means we have not broken one of the ten commands.

we can;t even do the last one. Let alone do the first one..

so the fact we can not do the last one should point us to the perfect righteous one who never broke the law and died for those of us who did
 

Randy Kluth

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Please tell us how you understand 'His righteousness'......and how the Law or laws pointed to it.
Christ's righteousness is his perfect conformity to the word of God, both in terms of morality and also in terms of identity. As such he is God. He is the perfect representation of who God is in human form.

The laws of Moses were designed by God to give Israel the opportunity to live in covenant with Himself so that they would be blessed. However, God, in His justice, had to show that Man had been disqualified from Eternal Life by his being the offspring of those who had departed from His word, namely Adam and Eve.

So the Law, for all of its intention to allow Israel to live in conformity with God's word, still had to show that they were disqualified from Eternal Life. A flawless righteous one had to come who as God could pardon them and give them a new contract that disposed of the Sin problem.

Thus, Christ is a flawless righteousness that is given to those who choose to repent, and has no condemnation for their sin. This righteousness is not based on the Law, but on the principle of Christ himself, who had the authority to give to men his own righteousness by allowing them to participate in his Spirit.

The Law was in place in perpetuity on the basis of God's own word, which cannot fail. But inasmuch as the Law showed Man does fail, Israel would inevitably break the covenant of Law. A new way had to be provided Israel in order for them to obtain Eternal Life.

I will add to this that I think Jesus came not to show his righteousness in terms of all of the symbols used by the Law, which applied to sinful Israel but not to him. Rather, he came to show in his character what those symbols were supposed to represent, which are the characteristics of love and kindness in God, which come only by conforming to God's word.
 
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Keraz

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You're saying there are false Jews, correct?
I'm saying that whether people are descended from Jacob or not, the criteria for their survival in the forthcoming Day the Lord will destroy His enemies, is belief in Jesus.
John 3:36....he that believes not the Son, shall not see life.....

Your idea is that even after that terrible Day, the Jews will get a second chance. This is a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory and is not Biblical. Only a remnant of the Jews will survive to join with their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:3-4
Even Zechariah 12:9-14 and 13:8-9, describe just a remnant, of Jews; those who are Christians now.
 

Randy Kluth

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I'm saying that whether people are descended from Jacob or not, the criteria for their survival in the forthcoming Day the Lord will destroy His enemies, is belief in Jesus.
John 3:36....he that believes not the Son, shall not see life.....

Your idea is that even after that terrible Day, the Jews will get a second chance. This is a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory and is not Biblical. Only a remnant of the Jews will survive to join with their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:3-4
Even Zechariah 12:9-14 and 13:8-9, describe just a remnant, of Jews; those who are Christians now.
Sorry, Premillennialism is not dependent on Dispensationalism. But you're talking about something even beyond Pretribulationism--you're talking about not even being called up to heaven. Who in history has believed that?
 

quietthinker

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It was defined

Commit one sin and you are not perfect

perfection means you have never commited one sin.

perfection according to the law means you have never broken one command..

perfection according to the minister of death means we have not broken one of the ten commands.

we can;t even do the last one. Let alone do the first one..

so the fact we can not do the last one should point us to the perfect righteous one who never broke the law and died for those of us who did
...and so God scrapped the Law?
 

MatthewG

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@quietthinker
...and so God scrapped the Law?
Jesus fulfilled it. Paul said the Law is spiritual and good. But every time he tired to fulfill it himsrlf the more judgemental he became.

“But Saul was going everywhere to destroy the church. He went from house to house, dragging out both men and women to throw them into prison.”
‭‭Acts of the Apostles‬ ‭8‬:‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬
 

quietthinker

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Christ's righteousness is his perfect conformity to the word of God, both in terms of morality and also in terms of identity.
How does that look?
The laws of Moses were designed by God to give Israel the opportunity to live in covenant with Himself so that they would be blessed.
How does that look like?
Rather, he came to show in his character what those symbols were supposed to represent, which are the characteristics of love and kindness
and how does that ultimately look like?
 

quietthinker

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@quietthinker

Jesus fulfilled it. Paul said the Law is spiritual and good. But every time he tired to fulfill it himsrlf the more judgemental he became.

“But Saul was going everywhere to destroy the church. He went from house to house, dragging out both men and women to throw them into prison.”
‭‭Acts of the Apostles‬ ‭8‬:‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬
so, Jesus fulfils it then scraps it? Wouldn't you say that makes God an arbitrary rule maker?
 

MatthewG

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so, Jesus fulfils it then scraps it? Wouldn't you say that makes God an arbitrary rule maker?
Who said he scraped it? Would you say Gods an arbitrary rule maker for his chosen material nation at the time, or were the laws for a purpose? Did you listen to what as stated?
 
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MatthewG

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@quietthinker do you think that because of Gods laws he is the reason for govermental or federal state laws and why wards or jail or prisons, exist today?
 

Keraz

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Sorry, Premillennialism is not dependent on Dispensationalism. But you're talking about something even beyond Pretribulationism--you're talking about not even being called up to heaven. Who in history has believed that?
You seem very confused; I am sure I have made myself clear that the Bible does not teach a rapture to heaven for anyone.
The Words of Jesus are plain and indisputable: No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13

Eventually, God and heaven come to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7
The Prophetic Word is also very clear about the fate of the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews and all of the Lord's enemies in the Middle East on His Day of wrath, and later at his Return; all will be killed and only those people who have proved their faith and trust in Jesus will go with Him into the Millennium.
 

Randy Kluth

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You seem very confused; I am sure I have made myself clear that the Bible does not teach a rapture to heaven for anyone.
The Words of Jesus are plain and indisputable: No one goes to heaven, except for the One who came from there. John 3:13
I'm confused? I thought I was pretty clear, that you're teaching something that is obviously rare, that Christians are not going to be called up to heaven. How is that confusing for you?

Premillennialists believe in a coming Age of glory, where God reigns unimpeded for a thousand years. Dispensationalists tend to believe Israel will be dominant in this era. Other Premills believe Israel will simply be one of many nations who are Christian in this age. Other Premills believe nations are irrelevant in the age to come.

So your claim that Israel's national recovery is a "Rapture Belief" seems bizarre to me, since many groups other than Pretribbers believe in this. And the belief of being Raptured to heaven is ubiquitous--what other option is out there?
Eventually, God and heaven come to the earth. Revelation 21:1-7
The Prophetic Word is also very clear about the fate of the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews and all of the Lord's enemies in the Middle East on His Day of wrath, and later at his Return; all will be killed and only those people who have proved their faith and trust in Jesus will go with Him into the Millennium.
The Bible also states that Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. We are transformed and then reign on earth in some way, together with Christ. Rejecting Israel's national restoration is rejecting God's promise to Abraham, that he would have a nation of descendants. You simply fail to recognize what God can do to restore Israel, even if it comes through major judgment. God is merciful, and He loves societies as well as individuals. He can save *nations.*
 
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quietthinker

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Who said he scraped it? Would you say Gods an arbitrary rule maker for his chosen material nation at the time, or were the laws for a purpose? Did you listen to what as stated?
isn't the rhetoric here 'Law has been done away with' ?
 
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MatthewG

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isn't the rhetoric here 'Law has been done away with' ?
“So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. I want to do what is right, but I can’t. I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭14‬-‭25‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Not Legalism but Christ​

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has [l]not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 [m]Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and [n]neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Remeber we gotta use our ears @quietthinker yes, the law has been done away with. That old Mosaic Law and Levitical law was all fulfilled in Christ. We were never given it anyway, it was for the Jewish nation.

Heathens/Gentiles were a law unto themselves...

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,


but I do believe @quietthinker if was not for Gods provisions and council we wouldn't have jails and prisons, or governmental laws.
 
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MatthewG

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Do you think it possible for use to instate "the Mosaic Law of all things" to nation today? Considering, it would be unthinkable to put to death a rebellious son, @Randy Kluth though people would be like "damn I wish i could kill this boy he is always causing me trouble" While it can be individual and spiritual that makes sense, but to be able to apply to America, or Austrilia just seems implausible cause Paul states it is spiritual and good not that it should be mandated cause they were nailed to the cross.

It's really amazing the overall scope if one takes in all of pauls writings and the other apostles as well...

Thank you also for the mention of Tabernacle and on the High Priestly Garments by Maureen Gaglardi

Times have certainly changed from since the dawn of Christ, haven't they? Or have they all remained the same, but everything becomes new in spiritual application of being born again?

When it comes to the olivet discourse, it's over with. The spiritual principles though at QT mention in Matthew 5, are always on going they are steps to heaven (in a sense), which people can fall down and walk back up again in their life of walking with Christ and maturing.
 
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ewq1938

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Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
 
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quietthinker

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Do you think it possible for use to instate "the Mosaic Law of all things" to nation today? Considering, it would be unthinkable to put to death a rebellious son, @Randy Kluth though people would be like "damn I wish i could kill this boy he is always causing me trouble" While it can be individual and spiritual that makes sense, but to be able to apply to America, or Austrilia just seems implausible cause Paul states it is spiritual and good not that it should be mandated cause they were nailed to the cross.

It's really amazing the overall scope if one takes in all of pauls writings and the other apostles as well...

Thank you also for the mention of Tabernacle and on the High Priestly Garments by Maureen Gaglardi

Times have certainly changed from since the dawn of Christ, haven't they? Or have they all remained the same, but everything becomes new in spiritual application of being born again?

When it comes to the olivet discourse, it's over with. The spiritual principles though at QT mention in Matthew 5, are always on going they are steps to heaven, which people can fall down and walk back up again in their life of walking with Christ and maturing.
The times we live in today is advanced comparatively. Human rights were not heard of, environmental care or concerns were not even on the horizon.
The influence Israel came from was that of the Pharaohs. That's the only system they were familiar with (400 yrs of slavery) ...do what the boss says or die. Now they are free....probably about a million or so people. Imagine keeping order with so many people who are no longer answerable to Pharaoh. Were to now?....into the desert. What are the immediate concerns? food, water, wild animals, vipers, scorpions....surrounding nations. No military training. Slaves, thats what they were, the rule being Pharaohs whip generation in, generation out.

Imagine if Moses had come along and said 'guys, what we are going to do is forgive the Egyptians' ...how do you think that would have gone down? They probably would have lynched Moses that afternoon. They needed to be ratcheted around from slave thinking to liberated thinking. We have a record of their history. Most of the time it was tougher than we imagine. The people wanted to party with no responsibility and yet God had chosen them. How to bring them inline with his values was the challenge? It is no less the challenge today.