Olivet Discourse present or future?

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Randy Kluth

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This is from a post I made on another forum, and wish to share it here...

I think the main problem, when trying to synchronize the synoptic Gospels on the Olivet Discourse, is that we fail to see how Jesus connected the events of his own generation with the 2nd Coming. After all, that was the same confusion that the Disciples had at the time, and the reason why they asked about the 2nd Coming after Jesus had mentioned the imminent fall of the Temple.

In Ezekiel 12, the Babylonians were presently at the doors of Jerusalem, just like Jesus was indicating, in his Address, the Romans were. The Prophet makes it clear that Israel had been looking for a kind of Messianic deliverance, a "Day of the Lord," when God would come down and defeat the Babylonians and save the nation. But Ezekiel differentiated a current "Day of the Lord" from the future expectation of a "Day of the Lord" in which Israel would finally be delivered for all time.

To correct this false notion, that God's Coming will be to save Israel at that time, Ezekiel points out that this "Coming" will be for Judgment, and not for Salvation. And so, those who rejected the idea that God was mad at Israel began to declare that the current harassment by the Babylonians was not evidence of final judgment, but rather, something that would take place far off in the future.

Eze 12.21 The word of the Lord came to me: 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? 23 Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.’ Say to them, ‘The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. 24 For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. 25 But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious people, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”
26 The word of the Lord came to me: 27 “Son of man, the Israelites are saying, ‘The vision he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies about the distant future.’
28 “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”


So it's critical here to understand that Israel, in Ezekiel's time, had the "Day of the Lord" all wrong, thinking it would bring deliverance, instead of judgment. Any judgment against Israel was far off into the future and nothing to do with what God was bringing to them in their own time.

In the Olivet Discourse we have the same situation. The Pharisees and religious leaders denied that the Romans were anything more than a temporary phenomenon. The "Day of the Lord" would soon arrive, with the Messianic Kingdom, and the Romans would be destroyed, saving Israel.

But Jesus made it clear that the Romans were a sign of impending judgment, that the "Day of the Lord" would bring imminent judgment, and was not far off into the future. He was not denying a future Day of Salvation at his Coming, but was prophesying the imminent destruction of their temple, just as it hat taken place in Ezekiel's time. In fact, Jesus assumed the same name, the "Son of Man," that Ezekiel had taken.

So we have all of this confusion about what Luke meant when he said a "Day" was coming when Jews would have to come down from their housetops and run for the hills. What did this have to do with the eschatological "Day of the Lord?"

Well, it does, because Jesus was defining the "Day of the Lord" as not only future, but also present. The "Day of the Lord" has two aspects to it, and not just one. It does mean final Salvation for national Israel, but not for all of the Jews.

In his time Jesus said the "Day of the Lord" will mean judgment, just as it will when he comes again. The "Son of Man" will return to judge Israel's enemies, but some of his enemies will be wicked Jews. And not only will he judge them at his Coming, but he will also judge them in his own generation.

And just as the future "Day of the Lord" will bring final Salvation for Israel, that Salvation was already present in those who had faith. They already had "Eternal Life." As long as Jesus was there with them, the Kingdom of God was already "near."

So we simply must get the context right, as well as the understanding Jesus had about the "Day of the Lord." There is, of course, the eschatological context. But there was also the present context. Jesus did not see them as conflicting or contradictory. His judgment one day will be final, but it could be comprehensive in history, as well. And Israel's experience at that time was the example for all nations that would see the "Day of the Lord."

Amos 5.18 Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord! Why do you long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness, not light.
 
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Keraz

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And just as the future "Day of the Lord" will bring final Salvation for Israel,
There is no 'salvation for Israel', if who you think is Israel - the Jewish State. Isaiah 22:14 tells us plainly of their fate.
Jesus does not 'come', when He sends His fiery wrath the destroy His enemies. He is not seen on His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath.

Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the Way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Followers of the right Way. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Zephaniah 14-18, Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
 

Randy Kluth

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There is no 'salvation for Israel', if who you think is Israel - the Jewish State. Isaiah 22:14 tells us plainly of their fate.
Jesus does not 'come', when He sends His fiery wrath the destroy His enemies. He is not seen on His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath.

Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the Way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Followers of the right Way. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Zephaniah 14-18, Hosea 4:3, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
Well, I think you know where I stand on this? I can't call the state in the Middle East anything but "Israel." This is by the providence of God, and also by the promise He made eons ago to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The vast number of them may be in sin, but God can save the sinner.

Where we live in the Kingdom of God is of little consequence to me, whether in the Middle East or somewhere else on planet earth. The main thing is just getting there!

The New Jerusalem lands somewhere in the Middle East, so I suppose we will all live there, at least part of the time? But it won't lack for acreage or room space--it will include most of the entire Middle East. And it will stretch all the way up to outer space! The views will be literally out of this world! ;)
 

Keraz

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I think you know where I stand on this?
The sad fact is; that people who have decided what God should do, will have their understanding of the truth of Prophecy, blocked and be unable to comprehend what will really happen. Isaiah 29:9-12 says this plainly.

Many will try to gain this knowledge. Daniel 12:4 But only a few will understand. Daniel 12:10

Ezekiel 33:30-33 People gather in groups and talk among themselves, saying: Let us see if there is any message from the Lord.
So people will read what is Written, but they will not act on it. Fine words, they will say, with insincerity, for their hearts are set on going their own way and they believe false teachers who promote prosperity and removal from any Tribulation.
To them, anyone who tells the truth of the Prophetic Word, is no more than a singer of fine songs, or a gifted musician. They will read the truth as presented, but none will take heed of it.
When disaster comes, as it come will, only then will they remember that they were warned, but failed to take notice of what God's prophets had told them.
REB. Condensed and paraphrased.
I can't call the state in the Middle East anything but "Israel.
The Jewish State of Israel is the fake, Satanic parallel and God will wipe them out as He says He will, in 20 + Prophesies.
the promise He made eons ago to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
Those promises of keeping Israel safe and prosperous, have been kept in the Western nations. We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, His Overcomers, as seen in each of the 7 Churchs in Revelation.
WE are the inheritors of the holy Land. Galatians 3:29, Isaiah 56:1-8
 

quietthinker

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Olivet Discourse present or future?​

Matthew 5? ....Present continuous
 

Randy Kluth

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The sad fact is; that people who have decided what God should do, will have their understanding of the truth of Prophecy, blocked and be unable to comprehend what will really happen. Isaiah 29:9-12 says this plainly.

Many will try to gain this knowledge. Daniel 12:4 But only a few will understand. Daniel 12:10
That can be misapplied to anybody you disagree with.
The Jewish State of Israel is the fake, Satanic parallel and God will wipe them out as He says He will, in 20 + Prophesies.
Nobody is denying that Israel will be judged, nor that the world will suffer judgment. You appear to be "hateful" towards the Jewish People--that concerns me. If God "so loved the world," that would include the nation of Jews, as well, right?
Those promises of keeping Israel safe and prosperous, have been kept in the Western nations. We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, His Overcomers, as seen in each of the 7 Churchs in Revelation.
WE are the inheritors of the holy Land. Galatians 3:29, Isaiah 56:1-8
There is nothing in the Bible that redefines "Israel" as the "Church." The two passages in the NT Bible (Gal 6.16; 1 Pet 2.9) that suggest to some that "Israel is the Church" were references to the national hope of Jewish Christians, and to the access Gentile Christians have been given to their hope in Christ (Rom 11.17).

The grafting in of Christians onto the Hope of Israel was not a redefinition of 'Israel," but rather, an expression of unity with Israel.

As Hosea said, "Those who were called 'Not My People' will once again be called 'My People.' (paraphrased) Here is Paul referring to the same...

Rom 9.25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one.”

It does not say, "Israel" will be redefined as the "Church." No, it is implying that Israel, now in a state of unbelief, will come again to a position of faith in God. They will return to their calling as "God's People." This is hope for all formerly Christian countries who have fallen away. We may return to our calling one day, when circumstances allow it.
 
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Keraz

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It does not say, "Israel" will be redefined as the "Church." No, it is implying that Israel, now in a state of unbelief, will come again to a position of faith in God.
But the Bible never says that the Jews will =generally repent and become Christian.
Paul is specific: A real Jew is one whose heart is faithful and righteous.....Romans 2:29 Of Israel, [the Jews] only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27
Jesus said the truth; Those who claim to be Jews, but are not, they are the Synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9b

John 3:36 puts it plainly: ....Whoever disobeys, [disbelieves] the Son will not see Eternal life, God's wrath rests upon them.

You say I hate Jews? No, what I hate is to see people confused and wrong in their beliefs about what God has planned for our future.
An amazing time, when we will be the people who God always wanted in His holy Land. His witnesses and His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:1-6
 

Randy Kluth

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But the Bible never says that the Jews will =generally repent and become Christian.
Paul is specific: A real Jew is one whose heart is faithful and righteous.....Romans 2:29 Of Israel, [the Jews] only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27
Jesus said the truth; Those who claim to be Jews, but are not, they are the Synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9b

John 3:36 puts it plainly: ....Whoever disobeys, [disbelieves] the Son will not see Eternal life, God's wrath rests upon them.

You say I hate Jews? No, what I hate is to see people confused and wrong in their beliefs about what God has planned for our future.
An amazing time, when we will be the people who God always wanted in His holy Land. His witnesses and His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:1-6
You're saying there are false Jews, correct? But that has nothing to do with disproving that there will be a national awakening in national Israel. So I don't know that you're proving anything with respect to our disagreement?

Okay, so you don't hate Jews. But you are certainly strongly disinterested in their having a national revival. Don't you want one for your own country?
 

Randy Kluth

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If we are talking about Matthew 5, Jesus' discourse are eternal principles of the Kingdom of God
This is one of those passages that haunted me for years until more recent times. Now I think I have a handle on it. Jesus was saying that the Law remained in effect, not for eternity, but as long as the Covenant of Law remained in effect. As we know, that Covenant failed, and Israel was cast aside, at least until they, as a nation, come to the New Covenant.

So Jesus was speaking to those, still under the Law, who sought to minimize some commandments while emphasizing others. Jesus said they were all applicable, and none of them should be demeaned.

Jesus was saying that as long as heaven and earth remained--essentially forever, God would be a witness against those who thought to demean and to diminish the Law. God's word remains true even when men break that Law.

However, when the Law was actually nullified at the Cross, it came to no longer be required. It isn't as though God's word ceased to be in effect for righteousness but that it came to rightfully point to the righteousness of Christ, whose righteousness exceeded the righteousness of the Law.

And this is because the Law had applied to sinful men, whose righteousness always fell short of Eternal Life. That was the entire purpose of the Law, to show Israel that they needed a better Covenant that would last forever, and not one that actually disqualified them from Eternal Life.

So let's look at it again...
Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Again, the Law was designed to point to Christ and to his greater righteousness. The righteousness of the Pharisees showed that not all those under the Law produced a righteousness that leads to Eternal Life.

So until the *Law was fulfilled,* and *everything accomplished,* nothing in the Law would change. All 613 or so laws would continue unabated until they were "fulfilled."

We now know that that fulfillment came at the Cross, when the shortcomings of the Law were shown to be insufficient and only Christ's Grace the means of Eternal Life. However, just as the Law remained a witness to God's eternal word in the heavens, so Christ's fulfillment of the Law remains a witness to God's eternal word in the heavens. If the Law was binding in heaven, so is Christ's Covenant.

Please bear in mind that Jesus was saying this about the Law *while the Law was still in effect!* But he was also saying that he had come to do something with the Law, namely, to "fulfill" it. We know that righteousness, being expressed under the Law, would continue to be expressed in Christ. His righteousness would be the eternal source of salvation that the Law had only pointed to.
 

ewq1938

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None of the OD events have taken place yet. Main events that are unique would be the gospel being preached globally then the end happening. Obviously the end did not take place yet. The second coming, resurrection of the dead in Christ and rapture also have not happened. Christ said one generation would see all the events take place. The events cannot be separated so two generations see them.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
 

quietthinker

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It points to it by showing us how far we are from it. And showing us what his is..

that will lead us to him, who became a curse for us
and what is it that constitutes 'his righteousness' at the core?
Moses gave us what it is

Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey EVERY word.

If you commit one sin, your done..
do you think this answers the question?
 

Eternally Grateful

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and what is it that constitutes 'his righteousness' at the core?

do you think this answers the question?
Yes

His righteousness is perfection

It points to our sin.. so we can then look for a savior

which in turn, the law points us to the innocent lamb slain for our sins. Which s the lamb of God.
 

quietthinker

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Yes

His righteousness is perfection

It points to our sin.. so we can then look for a savior

which in turn, the law points us to the innocent lamb slain for our sins. Which s the lamb of God.
hmmmm. I think if we are satisfied with that answer we are at an impasse in our understanding because 'perfection' whatever that is, also needs to be defined.