J:The Matthew 7 passage refers to people (those who said, Lord, Lord, but disobeyed continually) who were never truly born of God.Romans 8 is a wonderful demonstration of the security of the believer, and they are defined by Paul earlier in the chapter as those 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.
Once Saved Always Saved ?
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(farouk;68220)
J:The Matthew 7 passage refers to people (those who said, Lord, Lord, but disobeyed continually) who were never truly born of God.Romans 8 is a wonderful demonstration of the security of the believer, and they are defined by Paul earlier in the chapter as those 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.
Yes I agree with that, but that doesn't exactly prove the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved... if that is literally you are saying.Bible is literally against it, So therefore God is against this false doctrine of OSAS.
J:The Matthew 7 passage refers to people (those who said, Lord, Lord, but disobeyed continually) who were never truly born of God.Romans 8 is a wonderful demonstration of the security of the believer, and they are defined by Paul earlier in the chapter as those 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.
Yes I agree with that, but that doesn't exactly prove the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved... if that is literally you are saying.Bible is literally against it, So therefore God is against this false doctrine of OSAS.
J
art of the problem is the superficial evangelistic methods whereby people have professions of faith extracted out of them, when there has never been a work of the Spirit of God in their hearts. Conversion is the work of the Spirit, and as Paul says to the Philippians, chapter 1.6, 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ'.
art of the problem is the superficial evangelistic methods whereby people have professions of faith extracted out of them, when there has never been a work of the Spirit of God in their hearts. Conversion is the work of the Spirit, and as Paul says to the Philippians, chapter 1.6, 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ'.(farouk;68225)
Jart of the problem is the superficial evangelistic methods whereby people have professions of faith extracted out of them, when there has never been a work of the Spirit of God in their hearts. Conversion is the work of the Spirit, and as Paul says to the Philippians, chapter 1.6, 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ'.
True, at the same time, they are scriptures saying we can do good works and have a evil heart...Matthew 7:9 - Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?Matthew 7:10 - Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?Matthew 7:11 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?...Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?Luke 11:12 - Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
J
art of the problem is the superficial evangelistic methods whereby people have professions of faith extracted out of them, when there has never been a work of the Spirit of God in their hearts. Conversion is the work of the Spirit, and as Paul says to the Philippians, chapter 1.6, 'He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ'.True, at the same time, they are scriptures saying we can do good works and have a evil heart...Matthew 7:9 - Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?Matthew 7:10 - Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?Matthew 7:11 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?...Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?Luke 11:12 - Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
J:It is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2).Nowhere does it say that somene who is truly born again, will then get unborn again.(Jordan;68227)
True, at the same time, they are scriptures saying we can do good works and have a evil heart...Matthew 7:9 - Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?Matthew 7:10 - Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?Matthew 7:11 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?...Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?Luke 11:12 - Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
True, at the same time, they are scriptures saying we can do good works and have a evil heart...Matthew 7:9 - Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?Matthew 7:10 - Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?Matthew 7:11 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?...Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?Luke 11:12 - Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(farouk;68228)
(Jordan;68227)
True, at the same time, they are scriptures saying we can do good works and have a evil heart...Matthew 7:9 - Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?Matthew 7:10 - Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?Matthew 7:11 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?...Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?Luke 11:12 - Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
J:It is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2).Nowhere does it say that somene who is truly born again, will then get unborn again.I never said that... Of course we are saved by grace. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6)I'm saying it as if you did good works to people, do it as a chores and then say "Well God will give me a reward if I do it anyway" The heart is not right with God.What I'm saying is more towards James 2... as the defination of works between Paul and James are completely different.
(Jordan;68227)
True, at the same time, they are scriptures saying we can do good works and have a evil heart...Matthew 7:9 - Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?Matthew 7:10 - Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?Matthew 7:11 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?...Luke 11:11 - If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?Luke 11:12 - Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
J:It is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2).Nowhere does it say that somene who is truly born again, will then get unborn again.I never said that... Of course we are saved by grace. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6)I'm saying it as if you did good works to people, do it as a chores and then say "Well God will give me a reward if I do it anyway" The heart is not right with God.What I'm saying is more towards James 2... as the defination of works between Paul and James are completely different.
Sounds good what you said in your last post. I think maybe we are defining OSAS a bit differently, but I guess I'll pass on that one.Take care.
tomwebster
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(farouk;68228)
J:It is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2).Nowhere does it say that somene who is truly born again, will then get unborn again.
Read all of the many other posts on this subject, then maybe you will figure it out.
J:It is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2).Nowhere does it say that somene who is truly born again, will then get unborn again.
Read all of the many other posts on this subject, then maybe you will figure it out.
T:Nowhere in Scripture, that is, does it say that. If there is no life there in the first place, despite possible appearances, then the person in question was never truly born again.It's either all of grace, by the Spirit, or not at all.(tomwebster;68236)
Read all of the many other posts on this subject, then maybe you will figure it out.
Read all of the many other posts on this subject, then maybe you will figure it out.
So you think you can judge peoples hearts? Same old ridiculous argument to support mens lies The take no responsability watered down Word according to men fast food religion with out understanding or context One verse charlie interptations is what I call it It is not a Biblical teaching period ..its a mans doctrine ..
C:No, the people in question in the context that I was referring to are those who reject Christianity and end their lives in that state, after formerly professing it. If God, who searches the hearts and knows His own, imparted life, then there is still life. Repentance and faith (Romans 2, Ephesians 2.8&9, etc) are entirely the work of God. He who is able to save (Hebrews 7.25) is gloriously able also to keep (Jude 24), and he does keep them, because nothing can separate the Lord's people from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8.35-39).(Christina;68246)
So you think you can judge peoples hearts? Same old ridiculous argument to support mens lies The take no responsability watered down Word according to men fast food religion with out understanding or context One verse charlie interptations is what I call it It is not a Biblical teaching period ..its a mans doctrine ..
So you think you can judge peoples hearts? Same old ridiculous argument to support mens lies The take no responsability watered down Word according to men fast food religion with out understanding or context One verse charlie interptations is what I call it It is not a Biblical teaching period ..its a mans doctrine ..
Nowhere does it say that somene who is truly born again, will then get unborn again.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (rev 3:5)unless you are an overcomer, Jesus will blot your name out of the book of life.and tell me how do you get your name in the book of life, if you never believed.this is getting ridiculous,There is no such thing as OSAS.(I made the period really big, hows that for innovation
)your brother in christ Ryan Fitz
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (rev 3:5)unless you are an overcomer, Jesus will blot your name out of the book of life.and tell me how do you get your name in the book of life, if you never believed.this is getting ridiculous,There is no such thing as OSAS.(I made the period really big, hows that for innovation
The true believer was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) and it's all of grace, not human inclination or merit or effort.The very Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13.8).(Letsgofishing;68248)
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (rev 3:5)unless you are an overcomer, Jesus will blot your name out of the book of life.and tell me how do you get your name in the book of life, if you never believed.this is getting ridiculous,There is no such thing as OSAS.(I made the period really big, hows that for innovation
)your brother in christ Ryan Fitz
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (rev 3:5)unless you are an overcomer, Jesus will blot your name out of the book of life.and tell me how do you get your name in the book of life, if you never believed.this is getting ridiculous,There is no such thing as OSAS.(I made the period really big, hows that for innovation
Amen LGFRead Gods word do not listen to men I have met many who were truly saved and fell away for various reasons a death of a loved for example ... We can not say they were never saved ...thats a lie ..a cop out excuse of men .. We have responsability to stay in his Word to learn his truth his ways if we stay in the milk (easy stuff) we will fall away thats why God tells us to get into the meat ...Milk will not sustain one .. it doesnt mean one was not saved .. it means we need more substancial noushishment to stay in it ... Heres Gods final word on this Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heavenWe have to do his will not our will Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are believers the prophisized in his name What does God say to them?? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquityOSAS DISPROVED.............NOT ONE WORD OF MINE........... ALL GODS All those who have Not fallen away, not followed antichrist ,do Gods will, already know they are saved they do not need a OSAS doctrine ... All those who fall away do not his will ... want to see a OSAS doctrine because it requires no responsabilty for their action ...This was never Gods message And please do not claim the fake Calkvanistic doctrine Only the Elect were forechosen everyone has free will ...predestination of all makes a mockery of Gods Word
The Lord Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them".And the election by grace (Ephesisans 1) and eternal security of the believer is a very heartening truth, becuase we know that despite our efforts being not good enough, the Lord strengthens and sustains His people and nothing can separate us from the love of God.
Again you see what you chose and ignore the scripture that puts the responsability on us to stay in the faith ... thats not perfect for only one was perfect ... THE RESPONSABILITY IS OURS but in this age of men and political correctness nobady wants to take responsability ... Thats what Amos 8:11 -12 speaks of Gods Word is not heard ...only mans... belive what ever men tell you but its a mans religious belief not scripture Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen. Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heavendeny these verses if you like but this is a bible study site we take all scripture into account we dont just ignore what doesnt fit ...our man made ideasThe fact God will never leave us is a given promise....If his will is done ................. but we can leave him..............OSAS says we can not a lie of men
C:It's good to get into the Word of God, as you say.All good verses which you quoted, yes, praise God.We also read that God 'is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy' (Jude 24); he who is 'able to save them to the uttemost that come unto God by him' (Hebrews 7.25) is also the One who keeps His people.Yes, we should labour steadfastly in the Gospel of our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, who said 'Without me ye can do nothing'. 'Be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord' (1 Cor. 15.58). And human responsibility is a solemn matter, and we know the Apostles in Acts preached: 'God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'.'Keep us, Lord, o keep us cleavingTo Thyself and still believingTill the hour of our receivingPromised joys in heaven'.God bless, and may we be encouraged.
Fine I do not deny any verse's ..but to find what the answer is ..We must find the doctrine that encompasses all your verse's and mine We today think it fine to pick one side or the other thats where we fail What does God really say ... thats the truth we should be seeking ... There are no contrdictions in Gods Word ...so how do you combine your scripture and mine without a contrdiction being created ??The answer to this question will tell you what Gods truth is ... and its not Osas as that is contrdicted so there is something inbetween something we are missing thats causing this contrdiction find it you find the truth
(Christina;68258)
Fine I do not deny any verse's ..but to find what the answer is ..We must find the doctrine that encompasses all your verse's and mine We today think it fine to pick one side or the other thats where we fail What does God really say ... thats the truth we should be seeking ... There are no contrdictions in Gods Word ...so how do you combine your scripture and mine without a contrdiction being created ??
The answer to this question will tell you what Gods truth is ... and its not Osas as that is contrdicted so there is something inbetween something we are missing thats causing this contrdiction find it you find the truth
Now you got it Christina..."MISSING SOMETHING" is the key words.It's not about osas...it's about rightly dividing the Word of God. OSASis not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is SANCTIFICATION. One is quotingJUSTIFICATION scriptures and you are quoting SANCTIFICATION scriptures.What's the difference? Thought you would never ask. You don't lose your Justification...which is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ...that qualifiesyou for the second resurrection but if you want the FIRST Resurrectionyou must go through the firery trials that try you and that is called Sanctification. Mal. 3:2-3 says,2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.In the N.T. James says,12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.Your job is to humble and submit unto the Lord and He performsthe WORK not you. Yes but we still have to humble and submit right?Yes and the Lord gives us the faith as a gift to perform humility andsubmission to His Spirit. So we really don't have anything to do with that either. It is God working His Will in us causing us to grow in theSpirit.Someone who rejects chastisement is like the Israelites in thewilderness. Did they overcome? Paul said NO. Did they cross over into the Promise Land? Paul said No. The Promise Land represents the First Resurrection where only the Overcomerswill be written in the Book of Life or given Immortality in thatAge. The rest of God's Servants will be raised with the unbelievers orthe Second Resurrection. In Luke 12:46,46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.In other words, they were evil servants of God and they had towait like the Israelites did in the wilderness. So when you rightlydivide the Word of Truth, all the scriptures begin to make sense.Logabe
Fine I do not deny any verse's ..but to find what the answer is ..We must find the doctrine that encompasses all your verse's and mine We today think it fine to pick one side or the other thats where we fail What does God really say ... thats the truth we should be seeking ... There are no contrdictions in Gods Word ...so how do you combine your scripture and mine without a contrdiction being created ??
The answer to this question will tell you what Gods truth is ... and its not Osas as that is contrdicted so there is something inbetween something we are missing thats causing this contrdiction find it you find the truth
Now you got it Christina..."MISSING SOMETHING" is the key words.It's not about osas...it's about rightly dividing the Word of God. OSASis not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is SANCTIFICATION. One is quotingJUSTIFICATION scriptures and you are quoting SANCTIFICATION scriptures.What's the difference? Thought you would never ask. You don't lose your Justification...which is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ...that qualifiesyou for the second resurrection but if you want the FIRST Resurrectionyou must go through the firery trials that try you and that is called Sanctification. Mal. 3:2-3 says,2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.In the N.T. James says,12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.Your job is to humble and submit unto the Lord and He performsthe WORK not you. Yes but we still have to humble and submit right?Yes and the Lord gives us the faith as a gift to perform humility andsubmission to His Spirit. So we really don't have anything to do with that either. It is God working His Will in us causing us to grow in theSpirit.Someone who rejects chastisement is like the Israelites in thewilderness. Did they overcome? Paul said NO. Did they cross over into the Promise Land? Paul said No. The Promise Land represents the First Resurrection where only the Overcomerswill be written in the Book of Life or given Immortality in thatAge. The rest of God's Servants will be raised with the unbelievers orthe Second Resurrection. In Luke 12:46,46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.In other words, they were evil servants of God and they had towait like the Israelites did in the wilderness. So when you rightlydivide the Word of Truth, all the scriptures begin to make sense.Logabe
Christina:Yes, the more we delve into God's Word, the more we see just how deep it is and how many nuances and different emphases there are. Even in the way passages are themselves put together, the Scriptures themselves can often be a salutary and helpful guide in showing us just how in the revelation of Divine truth two distinct emphases or aspects can exisit side by side, not in opposition but in a complementary way.Examples that come to mind include statements in Philippians chapter 2:"Work our your own salvation [or: deliverance] with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you both to do and to will of his good pleasure." Now it would seem that in the first statement, in this passage of Divine revelation, the emphasis would be on human responsibility. Whereas the apparent emphasis in the second statement is Divine sovereignty.Again, for example, adjacently occurring statements of the Lord Jesus in chapter 6 of John's Gospel come to mind. He says:"All that the Father hath given me shall come to me". He goes on to say immediately afterwards, "and him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out."it would seem that in the first statement, the emphasis would be on Divine sovereignty. Whereas the apparent emphasis in the second statement is human responsibility.For statements of Scripture such as the ones in these passages, if a reader were to approach them in a strongly rationalizing way, the reaction might possibly be,'Well, which of these statements are more true than the others?' whereas we know by faith that if we acknowledge that both sets of statements with apparently divergent emphases are part of the overall mind of the Lord for us in revelation, then without necessarily being able fully to rationalize them completely now, we can await a coming day when faith will give way to sight as we gaze in eternity on the Lord Jesus who said to His followers, who didn't always grasp fully what his meaning was: "What I do thou knowest not now, but thou shalt know hereafter." Things I don't really grasp now will become clear in a coming day, and meanwhile, in order to affirm God's sovereignty from Scripture, I am not challenging human responsibility, and in order to affirm Scripture's statements about human responsibility I am not challenging God's sovereignty. It is in fact exactly these issues which have taken up the efforts and studies of Godly teachers of past generations and centuries. For example, the preacher C H Spurgeon in the 19th century was asked how he reconciled the sovereignty of God with human responsibility. And, humorist that he often proved to be, he responded, "I wouldn't try to reconcile two friends".I don't properly understand it - in fact, the very eternity of God means I can't properly grasp His greatness - but the loving and gracious key with which the Lord challenges me is the idea of trust (Proverbs 3, 5), when Scripture shows two distinct emphases, sometimes even expressed side by side.I like Anne Griffiths' words, which I apply to my heart, in her lovely hymn about the Scriptures:'O may these hallowed pages be My ever dear delight!And still new beauties may I see, And still increasing light!"(My two cents'.)
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