One Baptism

[Marymog]

Good post! Needful!

Baptism is immersion. Now, in saying that, I'm not trying to evoke a discussion on "immersion vs. sprinkling", for instance. Only to say that "baptism" is not a "technical term", in that it always has a certain and specific meaning.

The Bible uses "baptism" of people, and "pots and cups". It uses it in literal fashion, baptised in water, spiritual fashion, baptized in the Holy Spirit, baptized into Christ. Metaphorically, a baptism of fire, Jesus' baptism of suffering. The people were baptized into Moses.

So, Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, writes to the Gentile church, there is One Baptism. Of all these baptisms, which would you suppose God meant?

My answer is that God meant what Paul has also written to another Gentile church, that we are baptized into Jesus Christ.

Some respond that there are actually more baptisms. But I don't thing Scripture contradicts itself.

Consider . . . John's baptism in water unto repentence was there for a time and purpose, then was finished.

What is our baptism?

Much love!

Thank you.

To answer your question our baptism is a baptism into the Holy Spirit when one is baptized with water: John 3:5, Acts 8:36, various 1st century Christian writings also

According to Scripture before one is baptized one must first receive His word, believe that word and repent. That water baptism is, as scripture says, for the remission of sins. It also washes away our sins but not like the removal of dirt from our body.

The effect of baptism is that we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. We are assured that those that believe and have been baptized shall be saved. Notice how belief and baptism are two different actions? The act of believing is separate from the act of being baptized. Therefore just believing is not enough. For if one does not first believe he is not baptized. Why would one get baptized if they don't believe what they were just told about Jesus?

We are warned that he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Mary

PS...it should be noted that some denominations reject John 3:5, Acts 8:36 and early Christian writings as evidence of the necessity for water baptism. They accept a teaching that the men of the Reformation didn't even preach. They accept the teachings of men who disagreed with the reformers. I fail to see how the 1st century Christians got this wrong and men living in the 16th century got it right....truly baffling

Mary

 

[Marymog]

No. I believe the Romans passage teaches baptism into Jesus Christ, and that this then must be the one baptism taught in Ephesians.

Much love!

I agree with you. They do not speak to water baptism at all.

My point was I thought we were discussing baptism. I did not understand why you didn't quote passages about water baptism and you only referenced passages that don't mention water.

But I digress.....you have already clarified your thought process in other posts.

Thank you.

 

[marks]

To answer your question our baptism is a baptism into the Holy Spirit when one is baptized with water: John 3:5, Acts 8:36, various 1st century Christian writings also

That's two baptisms. How do you get around that?

 

[Marymog]

That's two baptisms. How do you get around that?

Nope....not two baptisms. You failed to recognize the word "when" in that sentence!!! I also wrote: "The effect of baptism is that we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." They are one in the same. Just like God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. You can't have one without the other.

When one is baptized with water you receive the Holy Spirit....just like Scripture says....just like I said.

Mary

Definition of WHEN

 

[marks]

Nope....not two baptisms. You failed to recognize the word "when" in that sentence!!! I also wrote: "The effect of baptism is that we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." They are one in the same. Just like God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. You can't have one without the other.

When one is baptized with water you receive the Holy Spirit....just like Scripture says....just like I said.

Mary

Definition of WHEN

OK. Because you had said . . .

our baptism is a baptism into the Holy Spirit when one is baptized with water:

This is again 2 baptisms, one with water, and one into the Holy Spirit. One is a physical baptism, the other a spiritual baptism. And that's just the point, there is the one, and we can describe it according to the process and location, and we can see it, and the other, which is mystical, and isn't something seen with our eyes in this realm.

Because you have them occurring at the same time, or one actually precedent to the other, that first you water baptize, and in doing this action, the mystical baptism into Christ also happens, that does not make two into one.

However . . . if you stay with the simplicity of the Scripture, there is no conflict with other passages.

Much love!

 

[Marymog]

OK. Because you had said . . .



This is again 2 baptisms, one with water, and one into the Holy Spirit. One is a physical baptism, the other a spiritual baptism. And that's just the point, there is the one, and we can describe it according to the process and location, and we can see it, and the other, which is mystical, and isn't something seen with our eyes in this realm.

Because you have them occurring at the same time, or one actually precedent to the other, that first you water baptize, and in doing this action, the mystical baptism into Christ also happens, that does not make two into one.

However . . . if you stay with the simplicity of the Scripture, there is no conflict with other passages.

Much love!

I now see what you are saying.

You ONCE AGAIN failed to recognize the word WHEN....

The fact is that there is only ONE baptism. The effect of that baptism is receiving the Holy Spirit. Getting baptized is an action. Receive the Holy Spirit is the gift (effect) of that action. You have to agree to be baptized. The gift of the Holy Spirit is automatic.

 

[marks]

The fact is that there is only ONE baptism.

Hi Mary,

Au contraire, I realize you are conjoining two baptisms into one in claiming that they occur at the same time, so it's the same act. You are also simply not calling a baptism what you previous did call a baptism.

What you are doing here is simply not recognizing the baptism which the Bible tells us is ours. We are baptized into Christ, according to Romans 6.

You can go to the language of "receiving the Holy Spirit", not counting this a baptism, that's fine, I'm not going to debate with you on that point. But I will continue to point to the language of Romans 6, this is a particular baptism, plainly stated, described and taught in detail. Our baptism into Christ. And Ephesians tells us there is in fact One Baptism.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

This teaches two baptisms. One being into water, the other being into Jesus. With the notion that the one brings the other.

Is that not so?

Hi marks,
No, it teaches that they (water and Spirit) baptize you as one.

Its like a peanut butter jelly sandwich. Its just one sandwich.

And with np diseespect to @Marymog ,

This IS the one baptism. It is by the power of the holy spirit that the sacramant actually conveys what thw outward sign also signifies.

It is thus that we are truly buried with Christ and rise with Him to new life on Him.

It is thus that we are born again and become children of God, members of His body, the Church.

Such we have always taught, believed , and Lived! For 2000 years as St Cyril shows.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

Pax!

 

[marks]

This IS the one baptism. It is by the power of the holy spirit that the sacramant actually conveys what thw outward sign also signifies.

A baptism sandwich? Mutliple ingredients, take two baptisms, layered into one?

That's double think. This is how people claim that both works and faith save. 2 becomes equal to 1.

I understand what you are saying, I could only hope you are understanding what I'm saying.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hi marks,
No, it teaches that they (water and Spirit) baptize you as one.

Its like a peanut butter jelly sandwich. Its just one sandwich.

And with np diseespect to @Marymog ,

This IS the one baptism. It is by the power of the holy spirit that the sacramant actually conveys what thw outward sign also signifies.

It is thus that we are truly buried with Christ and rise with Him to new life on Him.

It is thus that we are born again and become children of God, members of His body, the Church.

Such we have always taught, believed , and Lived! For 2000 years as St Cyril shows.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

Pax!

Is your church in charge of that baptism? That is to say, do you acknowledge water baptism, and therefore the baptism in the Holy Spirit, performed by, let's say, just any Christian, with or without any church affiliation?

I'm just wondering if it's the same as with communion.

Much love!

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

A baptism sandwich? Mutliple ingredients, take two baptisms, layered into one?

That's double think. This is how people claim that both works and faith save. 2 becomes equal to 1.

I understand what you are saying, I could only hope you are understanding what I'm saying.

Much love!

If you are saying that to be born again you need not be born of water and Spirit,
Then you are mistaken. There is but one new birth and it is by water and Spirit, this is the ONE baptism, by which one is born again and eneters into the kingdom of God
All the apostolic churches testify to this and have done so for 2000 years.

A baptism without the Spirit is an empty ritual, 'a form of religion but denying its power'

And the idea that one no longer needs to receive the living water to which the Spirit and the Bride beckon all, is a lie straight out of the pits of hell.

Baptism is not a 'work' but a gift one receives, so the error of 'faith alone' is not pertinent to this discussion.
One cannot baptise oneself.

do you acknowledge water baptism, and therefore the baptism in the Holy Spirit, performed by, let's say, just any Christian, with or without any church affiliation?

Baptisms done with the proper intention using the Trinitarian formula are valid

Peace!

 

[Ezra]

When one is baptized with water you receive the Holy Spirit.

wrong when we get saved we are baptized into the Body by his spirit . water baptism does not do that

 

[marks]

If you are saying that to be born again you need not be born of water and Spirit,
Then you are mistaken.

Hi Philip,

Is that what I said?

I think we will have a much better discussion if you respond to my words instead of yours.

Unless you are born of water and the Spirit, well, we know what it says.

Baptisms done with the proper intention using the Trinitarian formula are valid
Peace!

OK, so, I baptize you into the Name of Jesus . . . no good in your eyes, is that right?

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Hi Philip,

Is that what I said?

I think we will have a much better discussion if you respond to my words instead of yours.

That's what it sounded like you were saying... That there is 2 baptisms rather one as the Church has taught for 2000 years.

If you agree that we are born again by water and spirit then why are you trying to separate that one event into 2 baptisms?

OK, so, I baptize you into the Name of Jesus . . . no good in your eyes, is that right?

Much love!

Well i wouldn't go so far as to say its no good. 'a bent reed I will not break'

But Jesus Himself told us to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that is the recogzied form for entrance into the Church.
It is the 'narrow gate' that gives one access to the kingdom of God and participation in the sacred mysteries...

So if you wished acces to the Eucharist, but had been baptised in the name of Jesus only, you would have to be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

Peace!

 

[marks]

If you agree that we are born again by water and spirit then why are you trying to separate that one event into 2 baptisms?

You are the one claiming two baptisms though you wish to present them as a single baptism. I am saying that there is one baptism, and that baptism is into Jesus. You are saying, I believe, that you need have baptism into water in order that you may have baptism into Jesus. That's two baptism. One into water, one into Jesus.

And of course, this is if you believe the "water" here is baptismal water, rather than human birth water.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

The first birth is from his mother's womb. Can that be repeated?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Not the first birth only, but a second birth, of the Spirit.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The first birth produces only flesh, it is the second birth that is a new spirit.

This is not a teaching from Jesus on water baptism, He never even mentions it. Born by water, and by the Spirit. Because flesh gives birth to flesh. Spirit gives birth to spirit. But as I said, this passage never mentions baptism, rather physical birth and spiritual birth.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

You are the one claiming two baptisms though you wish to present them as a single baptism. I am saying that there is one baptism, and that baptism is into Jesus. You are saying, I believe, that you need have baptism into water in order that you may have baptism into Jesus. That's two baptism. One into water, one into Jesus.

No. What I am saying, which is what the Church has said for 2000 years, is that the one baptism into Christ is by means of water and Spirit. That is not two baptisms, but one. And it is the means by which one is born again.

And of course, this is if you believe the "water" here is baptismal water, rather than human birth water.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

The first birth is from his mother's womb. Can that be repeated?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Not the first birth only, but a second birth, of the Spirit.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The first birth produces only flesh, it is the second birth that is a new spirit.

This is not a teaching from Jesus on water baptism, He never even mentions it. Born by water, and by the Spirit. Because flesh gives birth to flesh. Spirit gives birth to spirit. But as I said, this passage never mentions baptism, rather physical birth and spiritual birth.

Now you here are separating the birth of water and the birth of Spirit into 2 events. This is contrary to the teaching of our brethren for 2000 years.
As a relatively recent doctrine of men, it is to be rejected.
If you can demonstrate the Church teaching your position for 2000 years, i will reconsider.

Peace !

Much love![/QUOTE]

 

[marks]

If you can demonstrate the Church teaching your position for 2000 years, i will reconsider.

You know that this is a fallacy when discussing Scripture, right? We need go with what the Bible says, in this case plainly, even if people for 10,000 years say differently.

It's a false appeal to authority. Authority is decided by Scripture. In the case of disagreement, well, "so and so says it means this," that's not authorative.

Rather show your view from the text as I have done mine.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As a relatively recent doctrine of men, it is to be rejected.

Another fallacy. God taught it in the New Testament. This predates your church. And supercedes your authority.

Philip, if we can't simply accept the simple Words from God in the Bible, then what? Why do you need these false appeals?

Much love!

 

[Ezra]

OK, so, I baptize you into the Name of Jesus . . . no good in your eyes, is that right?

honestly this is big thing among the COC i think and apostolic . i baptize in the trinity name others in Jesus name.i go by Christ words . the person saying the words only has small part in it . after all wear only doing the physical work . God is doing the rest

 

[Ezra]

So if you wished acces to the Eucharist, but had been baptised in the name of Jesus only, you would have to be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

that is man made doctrine not Bible