One Baptism

[marks]

Marks,

First, thank you for the pleasant dialouge. And I think we have come to the crux of our difference here.

The Church had been bapising people since before 1 letter of the NT was penned.

She has documented evidence that what she says of baptism now, is what she has said from the beginning.

For 2000 years she has understood that to be born again (by water and Spirit) one must receive the sacrament of baptism. And that this is specifically what Jesus is referring to when HE says we must be born of water and Spirit.
All the apostolic churhes teach this. All the bishops in communion with Alexandria. The bishops in communion with Constantinople. The bishops in communion with Rome.
Not one 2000 year old Christian community teach otherwise.

Why do you think your interpretation of our scriptures should be anything else but the teaching of men?

Peace!

What in this post gives a Scriptural refutation of my assertion? Can you help me? I'm not seeing it.

All I can find here is, "you are wrong, and everybody who is anybody knows you are wrong."

How am I wrong?

The Bible says . . . there is One Baptism.

The Bible says . . . we are baptized into Christ.

OK. Millions of people say this is not what it means. Yet it remains clear as day to me. There is one baptism, being baptized into Christ.

There have been a number of baptisms in the past, now there is one.

Straight from the Bible. Not my interpretation. Straight from the Word of God.

There is one baptism. We are baptized into Christ. Why do you need anything else?

Let me ask you . . . if you are not baptized into Christ until you are baptized into water, what happens when you come to faith? When you believe? You are not baptized into Christ, having not been baptized into water, so then, what does happen?

When I look at it this way, it really makes no sense to me at all. When I believed, I was baptized into Christ, and was born again.

Are you saying those who believe are not born again until they are water baptized?

Much love!

 

[marks]

your interpretation of our scriptures should be anything else but the teaching of men?

You can disparage me and my views all you want. I don't care. It's not important to me.

Just the same . . . What my Bible, the Scriptures which God gave to me, says . . . well, you can read it for yourself. You don't need me to interpret. You only need accept what it says, and not add to it.

Ephesians 4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The question I asked Philip, I'm interested in anyone's response . . .

Let me ask you . . . if you are not baptized into Christ until you are baptized into water, what happens when you come to faith? When you believe? You are not baptized into Christ, having not been baptized into water, so then, what does happen?

Much love!

 

[marks]

She has documented evidence

I agree, in a way, this is the heart of the matter.

You routinely retreat to the appeal to authority of your church, lacking the Scriptural teaching. For my point of view, I need only quote two verses of Scripture, both directed to the same Gentile Christian audience, both in teaching passages, both written by the apostle to the gentiles, both clear as day.

I quote the Bible, and you quote your church. And we find disagreement. But that's not a red flag to you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Of THE Church, founded by Christ through His apostles.

OK, so that includes me, and my pastor, and our church, being part of the true church of all who are baptised into Jesus Christ.

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord

Do you mean this part?

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." You seem to have added something to the passage.

Please show . . . in the Bible . . . that being water baptized according to specific formula is what is meant.

Much love!

 

[Philip James]

Appeal to authority of a "she"? Who is this "She"?

She is the bride of Jesus Christ.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

You routinely retreat to the appeal to authority of your church, lacking the Scriptural teaching

Um no, i give the understanding of the scripture as it has been lived by my brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers for 2000 years,

Your interpretation is novel and is thus rejected.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

Please show . . . in the Bible . . . that being water baptized according to specific formula is what is meant.

Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

I quote the Bible, and you quote your church. And we find disagreement. But that's not a red flag to you.

The 'red flag' is that your interpretation of what you quote is at variance with what the Church has always taught and believed.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

The Bible says . . . there is One Baptism.

The Bible says . . . we are baptized into Christ.

And the bible says... we must be born of water and Spirit.

And the bible says... Go therefore and baptise in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...

And the Church says that this ONE baptism is the living water of the sacrament of baptiam.

And so she has done for 2000 years.

Peace!

 

[marks]

Um no, i give the understanding of the scripture as it has been lived by my brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers for 2000 years,

Your interpretation is novel and is thus rejected.

Peace!

Is that your final word?

 

[Philip James]

Are you saying those who believe are not born again until they are water baptized?

Yep

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

You seem to have added something to the passage

What have I added? Do you see an issue with the translation I used?

Peace

 

[marks]

The 'red flag' is that your interpretation of what you quote is at variance with what the Church has always taught and believed.

Peace!

This is another false appeal to authority. Your church has taught this, but not "the church". The only way that makes sense is in your idea that your church is the only true church. Which is not true.

Much love!

 

[marks]

She is the bride of Jesus Christ.

Peace!

Only your church is "the bride of Christ"?

 

[marks]

Are you saying those who believe are not born again until they are water baptized?

Yep

Peace!

Then this is wrong?

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

And this is wrong?

John 3:14-16 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Because you believe, whosever believeth in him and shall be baptized in water with the correct words shall not perish, but have everlasting life. That is correct?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And the bible says... we must be born of water and Spirit.

And the bible says... Go therefore and baptise in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit...

And the Church says that this ONE baptism is the living water of the sacrament of baptiam.

And so she has done for 2000 years.

Peace!

Water and spirit = Adamic birth and heavenly birth

The Bible tells us of Jesus instructing His disciples to baptize . . . why?

Hint: Jesus and His apostles were continuing to announce the good news that the kingdom of God can come to earth as Jesus reigns from Jerusalem, and salvation goes to the ends of the earth to the gentiles, through Israel.

"The church" says many things. Your church says many things, and does many things, and I don't think all is in agreement with Scripture.

But even so it remains a false appeal to authority, "that's what Rabbi so and so says", or the modern day equivalent.

Why wouldn't Paul include teaching about baptism into water while he is teaching baptism into Jesus? Wouldn't that have brought amazing clarity to the topic? Instead, he plainly writes, God's teaching, not man's, that there is in fact one baptism. And He tells us that we are baptised into Jesus.

I have no objection to towards someone being water baptized. I was water baptized.

I did it as a public display of my repentance. The baptism, to me, symbolizes the new mind of Christ I had received.


Let me ask you.


Does everyone who comes to faith, who believes in Jesus, do they all get water baptized, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Philip James]

Instead, he plainly writes, God's teaching, not man's, that there is in fact one baptism. And He tells us that we are baptised into Jesus.

And for 2000 years the Church everywhere has taught that one is baptised into Jesus through the living waters (that is by water and Spirit) of the sacrament of baptism.

This is another false appeal to authority. Your church has taught this, but not "the church". The only way that makes sense is in your idea that your church is the only true church. Which is not true.

That which is believed everywhere by all is part of the deposit of faith received from the apostles.

But even so it remains a false appeal to authority, "that's what Rabbi so and so says", or the modern day equivalent.

Hardly. In every apostlic community you find this teaching on the sacrament of baptism. No where do you find one teaching something different.

and spirit = Adamic birth and heavenly birth

Now this, you find nowhere taught by the Church throughout its history. It is a recent invention of men and thus of 'Rabbi' so and so, and as such is to be rejected.

If you can find one 2000 year old apostolic community that teaches this, please demonstrate it.

If you can't then you are maintaining that the Holy Spirit left the Church in the dark for 1900 years (or whenever this noveau idea surfaced)

Does everyone who comes to faith, who believes in Jesus, do they all get water baptized, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

The living water of Baptism is available to all who would receive it.


The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water

Peace be with you!

 

[marks]

And for 2000 years the Church everywhere has taught that one is baptised into Jesus through the living waters

This is patently false. It is overgeneralization, and a false appeal to authority.

You cannot show this in Scripture, so you continue in appeals to authority, and now in overgeneralization.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That which is believed everywhere by all

That would settle the matter then. We are all in agreement!