One saved at instant of faith, baptism, both or ?

[shturt678s]

Providing one given the time, and availability of water, where exactly is one "saved," and is "repentance" necessary beyond the modern pervasively taught "I was bad before and now I'm a good guy"? Passages helpful.

Old Jack

 

[RANDOR]

Old things have passed away.........that is not you Jack, behold the new!
I got saved in my mothers garage............but went later in life and got Baptized......sure hope I did it right.......
Dang Chinese directions are hard to read most of the time.

Took two people to 3.5 hours to put together a ping pong table...played 30 minutes after installation.....sat in garage for the next 10 years.....gave it away.
Go figure.

 

[clark thompson]

I am one that believes baptism does need give salvation but is done by faith because we have salvation and want to show others we choose Him.

 

[lforrest]

I believe you are baptized into Jesus' death symbolically with the water baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the other baptism which is the deposit of the new life in Christ.

I now believe the only moment of salvation is the moment Christ was raised from the dead. From God's eternal perspective you are already a new creation, spiritually alive. From our corporal perspective we still need only put the old man to death and come into conformity with the image of Christ.

 

[shturt678s]

Old things have passed away.........that is not you Jack, behold the new!
I got saved in my mothers garage............but went later in life and got Baptized......sure hope I did it right.......
Dang Chinese directions are hard to read most of the time.

Took two people to 3.5 hours to put together a ping pong table...played 30 minutes after installation.....sat in garage for the next 10 years.....gave it away.
Go figure.

Sounds like a valid mustard seed ("faith") salvation to me, and works for me. You even look "repentant."


Old Jack planting mustard seeds

I believe you are baptized into Jesus' death symbolically with the water baptism. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the other baptism which is the deposit of the new life in Christ.

I now believe the only moment of salvation is the moment Christ was raised from the dead. From God's eternal perspective you are already a new creation, spiritually alive. From our corporal perspective we still need only put the old man to death and come into conformity with the image of Christ.

Actually I agree with you with a question, how do you view Mk.1:15b in all this?

Old Jack

 

[lforrest]

Actually I agree with you with a question, how do you view Mk.1:15b in all this?

Old Jack

I view it through 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV "12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Also 2 Corinthians 3:16

 

[RANDOR]

Crack!........ball is hit high into left field.....runner on third waits for the catch....tags up and heads for home......eyes on catchers eyes......
the intense look on the catchers face reassures the runner will not make it...........quickly he asks for forgiveness............the ball slams into the mit swings around tags the runner 3 feet from the bag....umpire screams.....
SAFE!

 

[shturt678s]

I view it through 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV "12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Also 2 Corinthians 3:16

Appreciate your response, great!

You wasn't aware that ICor.13:9-13 has always been one of my best encouragers from the Word. The only problem is I haven't grown up yet (v.11), and at my age don't think I'll grow up, however still going for it as a child.

Old Jack

Crack!........ball is hit high into left field.....runner on third waits for the catch....tags up and heads for home......eyes on catchers eyes......
the intense look on the catchers face reassures the runner will not make it...........quickly he asks for forgiveness............the ball slams into the mit swings around tags the runner 3 feet from the bag....umpire screams.....
SAFE!

Crack! I don't know? In the 7th grade got in a fight on the baseball field winning the fight, however he picked up the bat laying around and I ended with an upper cracked skull....a glancing blow as I ducked...owe! Lost that one in the end. My point running the race with you away from baseball fields...even on the streets in the ghettos o.k. just have to pick up the pace wearing the right colors.

Old running Jack

 

[lforrest]

Appreciate your response, great!

You wasn't aware that ICor.13:9-13 has always been one of my best encouragers from the Word. The only problem is I haven't grown up yet (v.11), and at my age don't think I'll grow up, however still going for it as a child.

Old Jack

The rebel on the cross next to Jesus didn't have any time to grow up, but he made it anyways.

 

[shturt678s]

The rebel on the cross next to Jesus didn't have any time to grow up, but he made it anyways.

Thank you for your response! I have one more thing going for me, I'm consistently repentant like he was.

I'm starting to see you're also one of them 24/7 non 007 secret agent Christians...a forever good thing...great!

Old Jack, 24/7 Bible thumper, maybe needing to become like that little child that Jesus picked up in His arms?

 

[IanLC]

Salvation is achieved by faith through grace! If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart you are saved! Yet baptism is an act of obedience wherein if you are truly saved you will willingly be baptized and not only that receive all that God has for you!
"Peter answered them, "All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is a powerful act because you symbolically experience death and resurrection! We say in our church you go down in that liquid grave and arise washed from sin! I was baptized when I was a child by what my parents say and christined but just this year I decided to be re-baptized 1. because the Holy Spirit was leading me 2. I had no recollection of my so called first baptism and 3. So I could experience it and remember the experience 4. out of obedience to the Lord Jesus! I had so much joy in the Holy Ghost and felt a closeness with Jesus and newness in my spirit!
And my last point if Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness shouldn't we follow suit?
"But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?" 15But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him. As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him." (Matthew 3:14-16)

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19)

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Jesus, when speaking to Martha, "he that is dead and believeth on me shall live". How is it a dead person can believe? He was speaking of those who were born dead, spiritually (all of us). Jesus went on to say, "He that is alive and believeth on me shall never die". Believing on Jesus can give us spiritual life that Adam had lost by disobeying God. Once we have spiritual life (step 1), believing requires action in taking step 2.

Step 2 is as Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be born again of the water and the Spirit. Why the Spirit? Because the gift of God (the Holy Ghost) is eternal life.

 

[rayofChrist58]

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Whoever chooses to believe in the Son of God is saved just like the thief on the cross beside the Lord , believed and got saved.


Baptism


1 Peter 3:21
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,



Baptism is required because our Lord Himself took the baptism and repentance of our sins is also required .

 

[puntorojo]

I like to think of Baptism as a wedding ring. You don't have to wear a wedding ring to be married. You are still married if you take that ring off. Baptism is you showing your peers that you are saved, and to celebrate your salvation.

 

[Wormwood]

Hmmm, can anyone show me a verse that say baptism is merely for "show" or that it is merely an outward sign of something that has already happened? I can think of about a dozen verses that show the opposite...namely that baptism is the point at which a person is: washed, clothed with Christ, dies with Christ, is raised to new life, is forgiven, receives the Holy Spirit, and is saved. The Scriptures seem very clear to me on this issue. As for one verse worth considering...

“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:37–38, ESV)

If they were "cut to the heart" at Peter's message, does this not imply that they believed? Why doesn't Peter say, "You don't have to do anything! If you have been cut to the heart it shows the Spirit is moving, and have believed this message, you are already saved. If you want to display your new state of salvation, you can be baptized...if you want." I think many have allowed their theology to reinterpret some pretty clear texts on this issue.

 

[DPMartin]

This is a constant theological distraction focused on questioning of one’s faith in the promise of Christ and the fulfillment therein.
Though many don’t see it as such, because there is no validation of any chosen theology in it. The solution to the problem is simply when the thief on the cross acknowledged the Christ, he received the Mercy of God through Christ. He merely acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah promised, and he was saved. And at that moment Jesus acknowledged his salvation in telling the thief on the cross he would see him in paradise.
There’s no requirement for the thief to get off the cross and be baptized is there? No ceremonies, statements of faith, sacraments, so on and so forth. Nor was there anything else required for that individual to be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven. The faith (belief and trust) is required. When Jesus saw faith in Him He honored it, and that is the only judgement that counts in the day of reckoning.

 

[Wormwood]

DPMartin,

Two issues with your point about the thief on the cross. First, we should never explain away explicit commands and teachings in the NT because of a possible exception. Even if the thief were an exception (which I do not believe he is), is this rationale to argue that all of Peter and Paul's teaching on baptism is therefore invalid?

Second, the thief is a pointless reference because Christian baptism had not even been instituted yet. Jesus had not died, raised and sent the Holy Spirit to those who would believe. In any event, if a person trips and breaks their neck on the way to the baptistery, I have no doubt that the grace of God would cover the person. Yet we should not point to such examples and conclude that teachings like Acts 2:38-40 are empty and baptism really has no sacramental significance.

 

[DPMartin]

DPMartin,

Two issues with your point about the thief on the cross. First, we should never explain away explicit commands and teachings in the NT because of a possible exception. Even if the thief were an exception (which I do not believe he is), is this rationale to argue that all of Peter and Paul's teaching on baptism is therefore invalid?

Second, the thief is a pointless reference because Christian baptism had not even been instituted yet. Jesus had not died, raised and sent the Holy Spirit to those who would believe. In any event, if a person trips and breaks their neck on the way to the baptistery, I have no doubt that the grace of God would cover the person. Yet we should not point to such examples and conclude that teachings like Acts 2:38-40 are empty and baptism really has no sacramental significance.

You know, it’s a shame that this subject gets gleaned so much over nothing. Men always want to make what is in their hand to do or posess, sacred, but what is truly sacred is supposed to posess them.
The act of baptism by water is the outward acknowledgment of the new life in the Christian context, but that requires in the name of Jesus Christ in the case of Christians. (Rom:6:4 Again acknowledgment.

Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit its empty and useless, no more effective then getting circumcised with out the covenant through Abraham. Those that were baptized by John the Baptist, and Peter visited them in order that they be baptized in the Holy Spirit should tell us that much.

Hence without the Presence of God to fulfill the Word He has given in a covenant, there is no covenant, nor fulfillment therein. Case in point with the circumcision of Abraham and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. The Presence of God (Holy Spirit) was with Abraham and his children, and the Presence of God (Holy Spirit) was with Peter also. And needless to say the Holy Spirit was present the day the thief acknowledge his Messiah. Outward acts of men that are ordained by the Lord that it be associated to Him, are a priesthood/ministry for the sake of the spreading of the Gospel. But Salivation of the soul is acknowledgment of one’s Savior.

The churches have made this simple act of acknowledgment into a religious requirements for the salvation of the soul, where as what is truly required is the Lord God’s acknowledgment of the faith He sees in a person in that person’s acknowledgment of His Son. Because one acknowledges, one agrees, and believes, and in the case of Jesus the Christ that is the qualifier for Salvation. The ministry of Grace has many things ordain by God for the outward showing thereof. But circumcision was a outward part of a covenant with the same God but not required for salvation, bringing offerings on Passover was a part of a covenant with the Lord God of Israel, but not required for salvation. Its was fulfillment their priesthood if you will but not the fulfillment of their salvation. No different then with baptism by water, or partaking in the bread and blood of Christ.
1Cor:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Wormwood]

DPMartin,

I appreciate your response. However, my concern is that you listed a great number of views, but no Scriptural support for those views. You claimed that baptism is an "acknowledgement" of the new life in Christ. This is not what the NT explicitly teaches. Let's look at a few verses:

“And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’” (Acts 22:16, ESV)

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.” (Romans 6:3–5, ESV)

“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:27, ESV)

“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:11–12, ESV)

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 3:21, ESV)

Here, we see the Scriptures teaching the exact opposite of what you are implying. First, these Scriptures teach that baptism is not merely an "acknowledgement" of something God has already done. Rather, baptism washes sins, unites us with the death and resurrection, puts on Christ, and saves us. So the question is, what Scriptural evidence do you have to support your assertions? Why should I believe you that baptism is merely an acknowledgement when Peter commanded people to be baptized in order to "wash away your sins" and "receive the Holy Spirit"? Why say it is acknowledgement when Paul says, "we were buried with him by baptism" and that those who had been baptized had "put on Christ." This is not the language of mere "acknowledgement." It seems very clear that Paul and Peter both taught that these things actually happened in/by baptism. To say that these events are unrelated to the act of baptism is to dismiss very very explicit teaching. I think you are allowing your theology to reframe these verses in a way that makes them say the opposite of what they teach.

Second, my view of baptism is not the same as the act of circumcision. In fact, Paul distinguishes baptism from circumcision in Colossians 2:11-12 and shows how baptism is NOT a reliance on flesh/works of the law, but is a means by which God acts. Baptism is a means by which we put our flesh to death rather than exalt it. It is a submission to God's work. It is an act of faith that is the very antithesis of works of the law! To suggest that seeing baptism as important is emphasizing works or law is a complete misunderstanding of Scriptures teaching on both.
Moreover, I disagree on your view of 1 Cor. 12:13 that separates water baptism and Spirit baptism. The very word "baptism" implies water. Acts 2:38-40 and Titus 3:5 show that the act of water baptism and the coming of the Spirit are linked. Ephesians 4:3 also tells us that there is "one baptism" not two. Also, Paul shows that in this baptism, we are brought into the body. I think he is clearly referring to Christian water baptism here as evidenced in teaching in other places such as Galatians 3:27. In fact, this was how the early church understood baptism historically.

In sum, we can make assertions or try to point to exceptions all day. Yet at some point you will have to explain how these texts teach something other than what they appear to be saying.