One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

[ReChoired]

The bridegroom taking the virgins is not the 2nd coming.

I never said it was.

It is the catching away of the living saints.

Some were ready, others were not.

Ah, you have the 'rapture' misunderstanding. Read the context:

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

Matthew 25 says nothing about catching anyone away, at all. As I said, it deals with the close of probation, as it was in the days of Noah.

Gen_7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.​

Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

The false (Jesuit) 'rapture' scenario that splits Jesus actual 2nd Coming into 2 phases, is error. The actual "caught up" takes place at Jesus second Advent which is the loudest most visible thing ever:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

Did you notice that the righteous are "alive and remain"? They are "left" alive, while the wicked are "taken" in destruction as demonstrated earlier.

This may help you:

https://archive.org/download/sermon...9 - ARMAGEDDON AND THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES.ppt

https://archive.org/download/14-com...HE MILLENNIUM & REVELATIONS GRAND FINALE.pptx

You might also read:

The Real Left behind:

https://archive.org/download/sda-stephen-bohr-left-behind/SDA - Stephen Bohr - Left Behind.pdf

Futurism's Incredible Journey:

https://archive.org/download/sda-st...phen Bohr - Futurism's Incredible Journey.pdf

 

[Truther]

Ah, you have the 'rapture' misunderstanding. Read the context:

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.​

Matthew 25 says nothing about catching anyone away, at all. As I said, it deals with the close of probation, as it was in the days of Noah.

Gen_7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.​

Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

The false (Jesuit) 'rapture' scenario that splits Jesus actual 2nd Coming into 2 phases, is error. The actual "caught up" takes place at Jesus second Advent which is the loudest most visible thing ever:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
​

Did you notice that the righteous are "alive and remain"? They are "left" alive, while the wicked are "taken" in destruction as demonstrated earlier.

This may help you:

https://archive.org/download/sermon-19-armageddon-and-the-seven-last-plagues/Sermon 19 - ARMAGEDDON AND THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES.ppt

https://archive.org/download/14-combined-sermon-20-hope-for-the-millennium-revelations-grand-finale/14 Combined - Sermon 20 - HOPE FOR THE MILLENNIUM & REVELATIONS GRAND FINALE.pptx

You might also read:

The Real Left behind:

https://archive.org/download/sda-stephen-bohr-left-behind/SDA - Stephen Bohr - Left Behind.pdf

Futurism's Incredible Journey:

https://archive.org/download/sda-stephen-bohr-futurisms-incredible-journey/SDA - Stephen Bohr - Futurism's Incredible Journey.pdf

Buncha silly commentary you posted.

Stick to the passage...it says the 5 wise went with the bridegroom and the 5 foolish were left behind trying to find oil.

Yep, it really is that easy.



Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


This was the Spirit filled/led saints being removed from the carnal ones.

Here is where the marriage is....


7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


Definitely not on earth.

 

[Davy]

Thank you for proving my point.

Two strawmen here and a false apriori.

Strawmen:

[1] I never said that God created animals "with a soul". I stated that living animals are "living souls" and demonstrated with scripture.
[2] I never said that God created animals with the exact same capability as mankind either.​

False apriori:

[1] "with a soul", the Bible doesn't say that mankind was created "with a soul", but that mankind, (Adam) was created and "became a living soul".
​

Another Strawman.

Strawman:

[1] I never stated that animals (lower orders of creatures) are "accountable like us (mankind) for sin"
​

Let me know when you desire to deal with what I actually presented, instead of what 'you' presented that 'I' presented. One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

Stupid Jewish Shemantics, evidence of the blindness Paul spoke of to Titus...

Titus 1:10-14
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
KJV

 

[Timtofly]

So, in Matt 25(the same conversation per 24), the bridegroom took the virgins or left them?

They were knocking at the door, but no one opened it for them. So no, death means taken. Some who died were always ready to die in Christ. Death starts out 50/50 death rate.

But at the end all will be dead, either with Christ or forever separated from Christ.

 

[Truther]

They were knocking at the door, but no one opened it for them. So no, death means taken. Some who died were always ready to die in Christ. Death starts out 50/50 death rate.

But at the end all will be dead, either with Christ or forever separated from Christ.

So we which are alive and remain will be killed by Jesus then caught up?

 

[Timtofly]

So we which are alive and remain will be killed by Jesus then caught up?

The old flesh will be changed. If you want to say killed, that is one mode of change. The only one we have experience with.

 

[Truther]

The old flesh will be changed. If you want to say killed, that is one mode of change. The only one we have experience with.

Jesus will kill off the saints?

 

[Keraz]

But at the end all will be dead, either with Christ or forever separated from Christ.

This belief contradicts what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen; we shall not all die.....

This prophecy applies to the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. All the people during the Millennium reign of Jesus, will be mortals, incl the raised martyrs, as per Revelation 20:4.
At the GWT Judgement, every person who has ever lived will be raised to stand before God and some will be still living then. All whose names are found in the Book of Life will receive immortality; the ancient Saints, all the Christian martyrs, all the faithful dead and those who are still alive. The rest of mankind are destined for the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Truther]

This belief contradicts what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen; we shall not all die.....

This prophecy applies to the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. All the people during the Millennium reign of Jesus, will be mortals, incl the raised martyrs, as per Revelation 20:4.
At the GWT Judgement, every person who has ever lived will be raised to stand before God and some will be still living then. All whose names are found in the Book of Life will receive immortality; the ancient Saints, all the Christian martyrs, all the faithful dead and those who are still alive. The rest of mankind are destined for the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

All the dead in Christ(shall rise first) are still dead during the Millennial?

I thought they were part of the 1st resurrection, prior to the Millennial?....


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Keraz]

All the dead in Christ(shall rise first) are still dead during the Millennial?

I thought they were part of the 1st resurrection, prior to the Millennial?....

You quote Rev 20:4 yourself. It clearly says the only the GT martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. ALL the rest of the dead, good and bad; await the Great White Throne Judgment, which comes after the 1000 years of Jesus reign.

 

[Truther]

You quote Rev 20:4 yourself. It clearly says the only the GT martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. ALL the rest of the dead, good and bad; await the Great White Throne Judgment, which comes after the 1000 years of Jesus reign.

No, it is the conclusion of the first resurrection. It marks the end of it. 1 Cor 15 says it is in 2 parts....


23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

All saints are his firstfruits, dead or alive.

Then the Millennial begins...


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus will kill off the saints?

What saints? That is what the final harvest is. It is the removal of Adam's sinful flesh. That is why the church is taken to Paradise in the 6th Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

This belief contradicts what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen; we shall not all die.....

This prophecy applies to the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. All the people during the Millennium reign of Jesus, will be mortals, incl the raised martyrs, as per Revelation 20:4.
At the GWT Judgement, every person who has ever lived will be raised to stand before God and some will be still living then. All whose names are found in the Book of Life will receive immortality; the ancient Saints, all the Christian martyrs, all the faithful dead and those who are still alive. The rest of mankind are destined for the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

This is the point we disagree on. Paul says the living will be changed. Adam's flesh stripped away and an incorruptible body given. Even Revelation 20:4, has a physical resurrection 1000 years prior to the GWT. The OT was the firstfruits at the Cross. Those in Christ are waiting in Paradise arriving there daily. Then the rapture at the 6th Seal. Then the church is complete, which Paul taught in every return Scripture he wrote. Revelation 20:4 is the resurrection to earth to rule with Christ. Not the church, but those God chose during the Trumpets and Thunders. The rest of Adam's flesh and blood will remain dead, until the GWT, and then cast into the Lake of Fire. These are the resurrections that are mentioned in the NT. Matthew, Paul, and John wrote about them.

 

[Brakelite]

As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; (again, confirmation that this is in context of the second coming...not seven years before) and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:

• The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
• The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
• They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
• The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
• The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?

The Left Behind series of books and movies and the false concept upon which they are based, which have become a sacred venerated icon on the walls of most Christian churches today, are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.

 

[Timtofly]

As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; (again, confirmation that this is in context of the second coming...not seven years before) and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:

• The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
• The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
• They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
• The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
• The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?

The Left Behind series of books and movies and the false concept upon which they are based, which have become a sacred venerated icon on the walls of most Christian churches today, are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.

If you are still alive after your house burns down around you, let me know. Water can drown, but a boat can still float. Fire is destructive. Firefighters who battle huge forest fires can testify to that fact. Some have not escaped.

Paradise is the best alternative. Death comes to all. Satan's 42 months come after the wheat and tares are gathered. Only being beheaded will save your soul, but only from fire. You will live on earth, but not in Paradise or the New Jerusalem. But choosing to get one's head cut off, may not be easy.

Also the harvest is in a certain order. The church leaves at the 6th Seal. That is when the Lamb and God on the throne come to earth to reap the final harvest in the Trumpets and Thunders.

The battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19 is to only kill those with the mark, who worship and follow Satan. It is part of the 7 vials poured out at the end of the 42 months, Satan is in control.

 

[Truther]

What saints? That is what the final harvest is. It is the removal of Adam's sinful flesh. That is why the church is taken to Paradise in the 6th Seal.

Paul said "....we shall not all sleep..".

This means, "...not all of us will die..."

This has nothing to do with too much caffeine.

 

[Brakelite]

If you are still alive after your house burns down around you, let me know. Water can drown, but a boat can still float. Fire is destructive. Firefighters who battle huge forest fires can testify to that fact. Some have not escaped.

Paradise is the best alternative. Death comes to all. Satan's 42 months come after the wheat and tares are gathered. Only being beheaded will save your soul, but only from fire. You will live on earth, but not in Paradise or the New Jerusalem. But choosing to get one's head cut off, may not be easy.

Also the harvest is in a certain order. The church leaves at the 6th Seal. That is when the Lamb and God on the throne come to earth to reap the final harvest in the Trumpets and Thunders.

The battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19 is to only kill those with the mark, who worship and follow Satan. It is part of the 7 vials poured out at the end of the 42 months, Satan is in control.

You've merely repeated your theory and not addressing the scriptures that disagree with it. How biblicaly honest is that?

 

[Timtofly]

You've merely repeated your theory and not addressing the scriptures that disagree with it. How biblicaly honest is that?

Well, if you read Revelation 6, and compare it to Matthew 24, it may make more sense. There are no Scriptures that disagree. In Noah’s day the world was destroyed by water. God promised that would not happen again. But Jesus made it clear, in the verses you gave, all would be destroyed by fire. I was using the same verses you did, just trying to figure out how a wooden boat would survive a fire.

Revelation 8 and 9 show fire destroying a third of everything in the Trumpets. The Trumpets symbolize the nation of Israel. When the Lamb comes on the 6th seal, Revelation 6, is compared to Matthew 25 when the Lord comes to earth and separates the sheep from the goat's. This is not the church. Because Paul claims the church is taken away at the Second Coming. Then before the 7th Trumpet, John hears 7 Thunders, but cannot let us know about them. Thunders is related to storms and the largest storm was Noah’s Flood, but no water, because God promised no water. Thunders indicate the restlessness of the Nations, and this is the harvest of wheat and tares, the final harvest of souls. The Seals can only represent the church. The vials of God's wrath can only represent those who worship Satan. Revelation 12 and 13 in the middle of the 7th Trumpet points out that Satan is given 42 months. Satan is also allowed to kill those who do not worship him or the false prophet. Why would any one want to remain to be counted among those who worship Satan? Why would they not want to leave in the 6th Seal?

12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Matthew 24

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,
the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.

Matthew says this happens before the Trumpets. John says this happens before the Trumpets.

The Lamb and throne are on the earth. That is the Second Coming. Revelation is the second earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. All those parables will be understood when the Lamb shows up.

 

[Davy]

As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; (again, confirmation that this is in context of the second coming...not seven years before) and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:

• The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
• The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
• They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
• The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
• The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?

The Left Behind series of books and movies and the false concept upon which they are based, which have become a sacred venerated icon on the walls of most Christian churches today, are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.

Matt 24:27-28
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Your understanding of the end of Luke 17 is proper, stick to it. Above in Matt.24:28 is the parallel answer which makes it definite that Lord Jesus did mean those being gathered like a dead corpse. That certainly is not about a gathering to Him, but a gathering to the devil and his host. Even the parable of the sower, Lord Jesus used fowls to represent the devil and his host.

The explanation of two women grinding at the mill, the one left behind is still... working. That's supposed to be those of us in Christ when He appears, we are still in the field (world) doing His work, giving meat in due season (teaching the brethren about the end leading up to His return).

 

[Brakelite]

Well, if you read Revelation 6, and compare it to Matthew 24, it may make more sense. There are no Scriptures that disagree. In Noah’s day the world was destroyed by water. God promised that would not happen again. But Jesus made it clear, in the verses you gave, all would be destroyed by fire. I was using the same verses you did, just trying to figure out how a wooden boat would survive a fire.

Revelation 8 and 9 show fire destroying a third of everything in the Trumpets. The Trumpets symbolize the nation of Israel. When the Lamb comes on the 6th seal, Revelation 6, is compared to Matthew 25 when the Lord comes to earth and separates the sheep from the goat's. This is not the church. Because Paul claims the church is taken away at the Second Coming. Then before the 7th Trumpet, John hears 7 Thunders, but cannot let us know about them. Thunders is related to storms and the largest storm was Noah’s Flood, but no water, because God promised no water. Thunders indicate the restlessness of the Nations, and this is the harvest of wheat and tares, the final harvest of souls. The Seals can only represent the church. The vials of God's wrath can only represent those who worship Satan. Revelation 12 and 13 in the middle of the 7th Trumpet points out that Satan is given 42 months. Satan is also allowed to kill those who do not worship him or the false prophet. Why would any one want to remain to be counted among those who worship Satan? Why would they not want to leave in the 6th Seal?

12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?”

Matthew 24

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,
the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.

Matthew says this happens before the Trumpets. John says this happens before the Trumpets.

The Lamb and throne are on the earth. That is the Second Coming. Revelation is the second earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. All those parables will be understood when the Lamb shows up.

You are attempting to fit an invented rapture theory into an eschatology based on wrong assumptions. You have tried to force a square peg into a non existent hole. You need to start at the beginning and change your entire eschatological framework from futurism to historicism. Move away from the Jesuit created hermeneutic and return to the reformers dynamic by which they proved the Papacy as the Antichrist forcing Rome to reinvent itself. Don't let those Catholic wannabe apologists Schofield and Darby dissuade you from the truth. Let scripture interpret scripture without the presumption of a revived temple and Roman empire