Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[The Light]

That's strange, because you just revealed a Post-tribulational coming by Christ and gathering of ALL His Church by that John 10 Scripture! and what is sad, is that you aren't even aware that you did that.

Only strange to you because you don't understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Both the Church which is raptured before the great tribulation and the twelve tribes which is raptured after the tribulation will be in heaven after the 6th seal gathering from heaven and earth. All will be in heaven as the great multitude during the one year wrath of God.

Per 1 Thess.4:13-16, Jesus when He DESCENDS TO EARTH brings the asleep saints which died in Christ with Him from heaven when He comes, as they are resurrected first.

Jesus does not descend to the earth when He comes for His bride.

Per 1 Thess.4:17, at that SAME TIME, the saints still alive on earth on that day will be "caught up" to Jesus and the resurrected saints in the "clouds" in the "air", with that being ON HIS WAY TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES IN JERUSALEM, per Zechariah 14.

You are not even close. The coming of Jesus in 1 Thes 4 happens before the seals are opened not after the 7th seal. Don't you see a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7. Don't you see them in heaven in Rev 19

Rev 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Why is Jesus coming immediately AFTER the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus have to end the tribulation with the armies of heaven in your view?

Why is Jesus gathering the elect after the tribulation. Shouldn't they be gathered before the tribulation is over.........in your view?

 

[grafted branch]

Actually, yes—the parousia (arrival/presence) of the lawless one is entirely public, marked by overt 'signs and lying wonders' that the whole world witnesses (2 Thessalonians 2:9). More importantly, whenever Paul or Jesus describes the Parousia of Christ, they don't leave it to a hidden definition; they attach public, earsplitting markers like a trumpet blast, a shout of command, and every eye seeing Him in flaming fire.

You can't use the word's neutral meaning of 'arrival' to sneak an invisible, multi-stage rapture past texts that explicitly demand it be loud, visible, and universal."

1. The "Parousia" of the Antichrist Is Completely Public and Visible​

• The Context of 2 Thessalonians 2:9: Paul says the coming (parousia) of the lawless one is accompanied by "all power and signs and lying wonders."
• The Flaw : Trying to imply that parousia can mean a hidden, stealthy, invisible event because the Antichrist arrives deceptively. But an individual performing massive public "signs, powers, and lying wonders" on a global stage is not invisible or secret—everyone sees him, hears him, and is deceived by his overt public spectacle! The word parousia simply means presence, arrival, or coming, whether applied to Christ or a false leader. Both arrivals are manifest and observable.

2. Context Defines the Modality, But Christ’s Parousia Has Explicit Noise and Glory​

• While parousia fundamentally means "presence" or "arrival," whenever the New Testament describes the Parousia of Christ, it deliberately stacks it with sensory, undeniable descriptors that rule out a quiet, secret snatching away:
  • It happens with a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
  • He is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8).
  • Every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7).

Further, this is witnessed by the whole world
Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

That is a direct hit to your comparison. Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 explicitly state that the false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders that are seen and experienced globally to deceive people.

This completely pulls the rug out from under your attempt to use 2 Thessalonians 2:9 to prove an "invisible" or hidden arrival.

Why This Comparison Fails:​

• Public Spectacle vs. Secret Event: The arrival (parousia) of the lawless one and his false prophets involves overt, highly visible signs and wonders that captivate the world. It is a public deception, not a secret, silent operation.
• Your Proving My Point: And accidentally helped prove my argument: whenever Scripture uses parousia—whether for the Antichrist, false prophets, or Christ Himself—the event is accompanied by massive, unmistakable, public phenomena that people actually witness.

Exposing the attempt to make parousia mean a "stealth, invisible rapture" doesn't hold up anywhere in the New Testament, least of all in the passages you tired to turn the argument against what scripture teaches!

When Christ came the first time He performed legitimate signs and wonders using His power yet His coming (as Messiah) at that time was hidden to some of the very people who looked for the Messiah. Many Jews thought He was going to have a physical kingdom and physically reign at that time. That deception prevented them from seeing Jesus as the Messiah, that coming was hidden even though it literally and physically happened.

The parousia of the lawless one is accompanied by all power, signs, and lying wonders. Jesus never denied He was the Messiah, the lawless one can deny he is the lawless one. It would seem to me that a parousia event can be a hidden event even if it is a literal physical event. Deception can make a parousia “invisible”.

 

[Scott Downey]

When Christ came the first time He performed legitimate signs and wonders using His power yet His coming (as Messiah) at that time was hidden to some of the very people who looked for the Messiah. Many Jews thought He was going to have a physical kingdom and physically reign at that time. That deception prevented them from seeing Jesus as the Messiah, that coming was hidden even though it literally and physically happened.

The parousia of the lawless one is accompanied by all power, signs, and lying wonders. Jesus never denied He was the Messiah, the lawless one can deny he is the lawless one. It would seem to me that a parousia event can be a hidden event even if it is a literal physical event. Deception can make a parousia “invisible”.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple - Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another...

www.biblegateway.com

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a massive difference between people misunderstanding Jesus' identity at His first physical coming and an entire physical event being invisible. Jesus explicitly warned us not to believe claims of a secret or hidden return (Matthew 24:26), comparing His actual parousia to lightning that flashes visibly across the entire sky. You are confusing people's spiritual blindness with a stealthy, quiet physical event that the New Testament never describes.

Maybe your blind to this cause in your mind it can not be so...

 

[Scott Downey]

1. A Hidden Meaning vs. a Physically Invisible Event Are Two Different Things​

• The False Logic: Confusing rejection with invisibility. When Jesus came the first time, His physical body, His miracles, and His teaching were entirely public, loud, and physically visible to thousands. People missed who He was spiritually because of their theological blindness, but no one had to guess whether a physical man was standing in front of them performing miracles.
• The Pre Trib Rapture Claim: Pre-tribulationism claims that the event itself—the actual physical removal of millions of people from earth—is a stealth operation where cars crash, clothes are left behind, and nobody sees Jesus descend to earth. That isn't "spiritual blindness"; that requires the physical event itself to be hidden and invisible.

2. Jesus Warned Us Against Secret, Hidden Claims of His Return​

Ironically, Jesus explicitly warned His followers not to fall for the exact kind of secret, hidden return that pre-tribulationism teaches:

• Matthew 24:26–27 : "So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man."
• Jesus uses the lightning flash as the ultimate metaphor for His parousia: it lights up the entire sky simultaneously. It is the opposite of a localized, quiet, secret event.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 9
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.


Hebrews 9:28 explicitly states that when Christ appears again, it is for a strict second time—not a third or fourth stealth phase. Just as the High Priest's appearance out of the Holy of Holies was the single visible sign to the waiting assembly that atonement was complete, Christ’s second appearance is the one definitive arrival for those waiting for Him, leaving no architectural room for a fragmented, multi-stage extraction schedule!

And if that is not enough, He tells the church-disciples to watch!
Since a pre-trib rapture is an invisible second coming what is this coming where Jesus tells the disciples (His people), all to watch?
Because clearly they are watching for His return on the earth, not from heaven, and the return described is glorious and visible to all.

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - New King James Version

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple - Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another...

www.biblegateway.com

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning— 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!”

 

[Scott Downey]

The logic is tight, and to me unbreakable, the scripture Jesus said, can not be broken.

Framed this way, according the the scripture — pointing out that Jesus explicitly told His disciples on earth to watch for a coming that is visibly accompanied by cosmic signs, glory, and the gathering of the elect — completely demolishes the idea of a secret, pre-tribulation escape hatch. There is nothing "secret" about the arrival described in Mark 13:24–27; it is unmistakably public, loud, and cataclysmic.

And they are witnesses of this return as they are on the earth.

 

[Scott Downey]

The point made about who is watching is crucial: Jesus told His disciples on earth to watch for an event that He explicitly places after the tribulation, complete with cosmic signs and the gathering of the elect (Mark 13:24–27). If the Church was already snatched away years earlier in secret, then the disciples—and believers going through trial—wouldn't be watching for that visible glory; they'd be waiting for an invisible vanishing act that Jesus never actually described.

It takes a lot of patience to untangle theological scaffolding, but anchoring the discussion back to plain grammar ("second time"), structural unity ("one body"), and the actual words of Christ ("after that tribulation") is the best way to let the text speak for itself.

And I hope we all want to come to the knowledge of the truth, even if that path goes contrary to what you believe, I hope you do!

 

[Marty fox]

Finally I understand, but even so, when comparing it with the texts involved I don't see it making much sense. Because it has to fit the texts involved somehow and the texts involve prophesying, being persecuted then killed, then rising from the dead, then ascending into heaven, and then during that exact same hour a great earthquake erupts and what all that leads to at the time. You seem to be suggesting no literal events are meant whatsoever. No one literally being persecuted and killed. No one literally rising from the dead and ascending into heaven after they have been killed, and their enemies beholding this. No literal great earthquake and what all that leads to, such as the remnant were scared senseless, thus repented and gave glory to God. That it's all just parables or something.

No they mirror Jesus, life which was literal.

Jesus' ministry was 3 1/2 years
No one could harm Jesus until His time had come
Jesus was persecuted
Jesus was crucified "in the great city" Jerusalem
There was an earthquake when Jesus died
Jesus was dead and rose on the third day
Jesus ascended back up to heaven
People celebrated when Jesus died

Do you think all of this is a coincidence?

The two prophets represent the law and the prophets

Ones attributes are the same as Mosses who represented the law

The other attributes are the same as Elijiah who represents the prophets.

Both the law and the prophets point to Jesus.

The great city is Jerusalem described as Egypt (Jerusalem's bondage) and Sodom (Jerusalem's morality)

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus explicitly warned us not to believe claims of a secret or hidden return (Matthew 24:26), comparing His actual parousia to lightning that flashes visibly across the entire sky.

Lightning is literally a local event and not a global event, under perfect conditions theoretically a person could observe lightning from a maximum distance of approximately 273 miles (440 kilometers) away. Here’s the formula …



D = (2RH + H2 – 2Rh – h2)1/2
D is the maximum distance that lightning can be observed
R is the distance from the surface of the earth to the center of the earth, estimated at 4,000 miles
H is the height of the clouds, based on Wikipedia’s top most cloud layer that lightning comes from, which is 49,000 feet
h is the height of a person, 6 feet.

 

[Scott Downey]

Lightning is literally a local event and not a global event, under perfect conditions theoretically a person could observe lightning from a maximum distance of approximately 273 miles (440 kilometers) away. Here’s the formula …



D = (2RH + H2 – 2Rh – h2)1/2
D is the maximum distance that lightning can be observed
R is the distance from the surface of the earth to the center of the earth, estimated at 4,000 miles
H is the height of the clouds, based on Wikipedia’s top most cloud layer that lightning comes from, which is 49,000 feet
h is the height of a person, 6 feet.

You bring out a mathematical formula for the horizon of a physical lightning bolt, but you missed the entire point of the metaphor. Jesus was contrasting false, hidden claims ('He's in the inner rooms') with a brilliant flash that lights up the sky.

More importantly, Matthew 24:30 states that all the tribes of the earth will see Him coming with power and great glory. You can't math-equation your way around a global, public event that the entire world witnesses.

 

[grafted branch]

More importantly, Matthew 24:30 states that all the tribes of the earth will see Him coming with power and great glory. You can't math-equation your way around a global, public event that the entire world witnesses.

Acts 1:11 says He will return in like manner as He was seen going to heaven. He ascended from the mount of Olives which every eye of the 12 tribes in Jerusalem could’ve seen, just like lightning that might take place over the mount of Olives can be seen in Jerusalem.

Did people in Africa or China see Him ascend? No. He returns in like manner, physically seen locally not globally.

 

[Scott Downey]

Acts 1:11 says He will return in like manner as He was seen going to heaven. He ascended from the mount of Olives which every eye of the 12 tribes in Jerusalem could’ve seen, just like lightning that might take place over the mount of Olives can be seen in Jerusalem.

Did people in Africa or China see Him ascend? No. He returns in like manner, physically seen locally not globally.

Every eye sees His return, globally, at the same time, this is a miraculous event.
All the tribes of the earth mourn because of they are seeing Him come back.
He comes in glory and authority at the right hand of the Father; nothing is impossible with God; the return of Christ is not a natural event, it is supernatural.

Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, [b]the Beginning and the End,” says the [c]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Luke 9:26
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Besides all that, there are miraculous events happening to the earth and the heaven at that time for it is the Day of wrath for the unbelieving world. Jesus taught Heaven and Earth Pass away. As does Peter, and Paul calls this a sudden destruction.

Revelation 6

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances​

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Funny but a secret departure is what Christ did when He ascended, as the world was not a witness of that....

But when He comes a second time, He comes visibly to all.

The pre-trib people have flipped things upside down, with their secret coming of Christ and rapture.

1. "Every Eye Will See Him" (Revelation 1:7)​

• The Text: Revelation 1:7 explicitly states: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him."
• The Flaw: Trying to restrict Christ's return to a private, localized event visible only to a few people in Jerusalem (like the ascension). But Scripture explicitly counters that by stating every eye—globally—will see Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. An ascension is a departure of a localized group of disciples; the Parousia is a cosmic, global revelation.

2. The Nature of "In Like Manner" (Acts 1:11)​

• The Text: The angels told the disciples, "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11).
• The Flaw: "In like manner" (tropon) refers to the manner or mode of His transit—meaning He is a bodily, physical person returning visibly on the clouds, rather than a spiritual or abstract concept. It does not mean He will be restricted to a low altitude where only a few people in a single ZIP code can spot Him!

 

[Scott Downey]

We need to be grounding the return of Christ in its proper, supernatural context, and hit the absolute nail on the head: Christ's return is not bound by human physics, local horizons, or the curvature of the earth. Reducing a cosmic, divine manifestation to a local line-of-sight calculation completely strips away the supernatural power of God.

Pulling in Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17, and Acts 17:31, emphasizes three unshakeable truths that dismantle his localized-return argument:

1. The Global, Supernatural Scope ("Every Eye"): The text says every eye will see Him simultaneously, powered by the glory of the Father and the holy angels (Luke 9:26). Trying to apply a human field-of-vision math equation to an event where the sky itself rolls up like a scroll (Revelation 6:14) is a category error of massive proportions.
2. The Universal Witness of the Unbelieving World: At the sixth seal, it isn't just a few people in Jerusalem who react; every strata of human society—kings, rich men, commanders, slaves, and free men across the globe—hid in caves because they recognized the face of Him who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:15–17).
3. The Appointed Day of Global Judgment: As Paul states in Acts 17:31, God has appointed a day to judge the entire world in righteousness by that Man. A localized event in a single zip code cannot fulfill a universal, world-ending judicial reckoning.

Otherwise you completely box yourself into a corner trying to make a supernatural, global, apocalyptic event fit into a neat little natural box as a failed attempt to salvage pre-trib assumptions.