- Jul 11, 2015
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No. Only the living are raptured. The dead are in heaven and come with Jesus, down to the clouds while the living/remaining saints go up to the clouds.
Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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No. Only the living are raptured. The dead are in heaven and come with Jesus, down to the clouds while the living/remaining saints go up to the clouds.
Calling Corinthians 'babes' or 'carnal' (1 Corinthians 3) was a rebuke of their immature behavior, not a decree that God splits the Body of Christ into separate tiers with different rapture dates. Every believer is part of the same one body. Furthermore, the Bema seat evaluates believers for rewards, not to figure out who gets thrown into a tribulation. You are reading a human merit-system into texts that are talking about spiritual growth and grace.
@rebuilder 454
Quite a reach trying to argue that because Paul used words like "spiritual," "carnal," and "babes" in 1 Corinthians 3, Paul somehow divided the Body of Christ into two separate classes: a "worthy" bride that escapes in a pre-trib rapture, and an "unworthy" group left behind. Trying to claim the Bema seat is about dividing the worthy from the unworthy is fake news.
That argument completely distorts what Paul actually taught about spiritual maturity and salvation. Here is why that logic falls apart:
Quite a reach trying to argue that because Paul used words like "spiritual," "carnal," and "babes" in 1 Corinthians 3, Paul somehow divided the Body of Christ into two separate classes: a "worthy" bride that escapes in a pre-trib rapture, and an "unworthy" group left behind. Trying to claim the Bema seat is about dividing the worthy from the unworthy is fake news.
That argument completely distorts what Paul actually taught about spiritual maturity and salvation. Here is why that logic falls apart:
1. Spiritual Immaturity is Not a Separate Class or Species
- The Context of 1 Corinthians 3: When Paul calls the Corinthians "babes in Christ" and "carnal" (v. 1–3), he is rebuking their immature behavior (jealousy, quarreling, divisions), not creating a permanent caste system or splitting them into two different corporate bodies with separate rescue timelines.
- The Flaw in His Logic: Every single believer starts out as a spiritual "babe" and struggles with carnality at points in their walk. If being "carnal" or a "babe" meant you were disqualified from the rapture and left behind for a tribulation, nobody would make it out, because all Christians struggle with remaining fleshly. Paul explicitly says in 1 Corinthians 3:1 that they are in Christ—they are part of the exact same body.
2. The Bride Isn't a "Super-Tier" of Christians
- The Flaw: Multi-stage teachers love to divide the Church into a "worthy Bride" that gets a pre-trib escape and an ordinary group left behind. But Scripture portrays the entire Church as the Bride of Christ, cleansed by His sacrifice, not just an elite group of overachievers who earned a VIP ticket out.
3. What the Bema Seat Actually Is
- The Context of 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10: The Bema (judgment seat of Christ) is where all believers appear to receive rewards for what they have done in the body, whether good or bad. It determines rewards, not eternal destiny or rapture timing.
- The Flaw: Trying to weaponize the Bema seat to create a "worthy vs. unworthy" rapture split turns grace on its head. Our standing in the body is based on Christ's righteousness, not our flawless performance. If the rapture required you to be "worthy" in your own strength, everyone would fail.
The verses writes the Lord DESCENDS and the dead RISE first then we follow ??
What am I not understanding ?
1 Thess 4:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Their spirits are with the Lord in heaven. God will bring them with Christ when He returns.
The get a new resurrected glorified body before us as they rise first and then we are transformed.
Idea being they are not forgotten by God, cause some christians at the time thought their dead fellow believers would come behind in some way.
It also says this as a way of comforting them regarding their dead loved ones who are fellow believers.
They will rise from the dead and see them again.
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
..and so you go on and on.
No commentary, no verses, just venom and cursing the body of Christ.
You really need that hatred to get dealt with.
Uh...they are called out and classified.
You can't wiggle out of it by pointing out those CLASSES are "Rebuked"
BTW..."BABES" iS NOT a class of believers that is defective. It simply means they are newly saved.
QUOTE
" every believer is part of the same body "
Yes we all know that.
Paul's CLASSIFICATION of believers is....of course....believers.
Why would you go there?????
QUOTE
"Furthermore, the Bema seat evaluates believers for rewards, not to figure out who gets thrown into a tribulation. You are reading a human merit-system into texts that are talking about spiritual growth and grace."
Wow..where do I start?
You are oblivious to the fact you framed the bema seat as " worthy vs unworthy "
Ahem....those with no crowns are ....UNWORTHY BELIEVERS.
absolutely zero there about growing in grace.
It is a PERFORMANCE evaluation.
NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.
So really nothing you said changes the fact that the unworthy bride stays as JESUS TAUGHT in the virgin parable of Matthew 25, and in the Noah analogy of mat 24.
But I am glad you, connected the bema seat.
1) it is in heaven.
2) IT HAS ZERO to do with the rapture itself, but glad you realized there are in fact different classes of believers as you inadvertently pointed it out.
The rapture has the saved in it.
The rapture is therefore remotely and INDIRECTLY tied to salvation.
A dog show has dogs.
Different classes of them.
Worthy ones get a prize/reward.
Some do not.
They are all dogs nonetheless.
Believers staying behind are believers.
No brainer.
Let’s not forget something else, in Matthew 13:40 the reapers gather the tares first and bind them in bundles to be burned.
The earth is reaped twice in Revelation 14 and we have the first resurrection in Revelation 20 which suggests a second resurrection also happens.
Since 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 has the dead in Christ rising first and Matthew 13:40 has the tares gathered first, it would make sense that they happen at different harvests and resurrections.
Do you have an overall chronological order of how these happen?
Marty, how do you explain how the two witnesses are said to be two candlesticks and two olive trees? IOW how do they equal four?
Revelation 11:4 (KJV) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
I agree they represent the Law and Prophets of Old, which olive trees represent. The two candlesticks representing the church being send unto all the earth with the Word (Gospel) proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit.
The message foretold of Old did not change when Christ came. Only the method or manner in which the message about Him changed. No longer limited to Israel of Old. In the Old the message foretold of Christ came through the Law and Prophets, but now, since Christ came in His Kingdom the Word (gospel) about Christ is sent unto all the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus gave no indication to His disciples about the exact timing the things He spoke would come to pass. Neither 2000 plus years, nor "about 35 years" fit passages for the end of the Old Covenant or the end of the New Covenant when Christ shall soon/quickly/is near to come again. Christ tells us the end will not come until the gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached in all the world. And the end did not come when the Old Covenant city and temple were utterly destroyed in 70 AD.
Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
What would soon come quickly, and near to coming when He spoke these things pertains to the opening of the Kingdom of God in heaven that shall be complete as the gospel of Christ is preached unto all the nations of the earth.
Revelation 14 twice reaping, one to salvation, one to wrath
The first reaping by Christ
The second by an angel, cast into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
I don't read any length of time between these reaping's, and that fits what Christ taught of the tares and the wheat, as occurring together at the same time.
Not 2 raptures!
What is your point?
14 And I looked, and behold, a white cloud; and upon the cloud sat one like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, “Thrust in thy sickle and reap; for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in Heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in thy sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the wine press, even unto the horse bridles, for the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
I just knew you'd get hung up on that!
But the concept is correct and verified.
Jesus teaches the angels at the end of the age-world gather both groups, one to wrath, one for salvation.
In Rev 14, the Son of Man does the reaping, and in Mark 13, the angels do the reaping, so because of that your inventing multiple reapings-raptures-resurrections
How you then going to fit in this... perhaps #5 and # 6!
Your getting bogged down in minutia's while missing the Forrest from the trees.
You do know parables are stories, and Revelation is highly symbolic.
Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
All these verses are speaking of the same event on the Day of judgment.
After they are judged, they are taken to their correct inheritances or just punishments after they are judged, and they were all judged TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME. Each group saw and heard what happened to the others.
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Comparing the Body of Christ to a 'dog show' to justify dividing believers into tiered classes misses the entire point of grace. Paul explicitly states at the Bema seat that even if a believer's works are completely burned up, 'he himself will be saved' (1 Corinthians 3:15)—not thrown into a tribulation.
Furthermore, the foolish virgins in Matthew 25 were told 'I do not know you,' proving they weren't carnal Christians, but unregenerate.
And in the Noah analogy, it was the wicked who were 'taken away' in judgment, while the righteous remained.
@rebuilder 454
1. The Bema Seat Rewards Do Not Equal Exclusions from the Resurrection
- His Logic: Claims that believers with "no crowns" are "UNWORTHY BELIEVERS" who get left behind.
- The Flaw: Look at Paul’s actual description of the Bema seat in 1 Corinthians 3:12–15. If a believer's work is burned up, "he will suffer loss, yet he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." Even the lowest, least-rewarded believer whose works are entirely burned to stubble is still saved. Paul never says, "If your works burn up, you get thrown into the Great Tribulation."
2. The Parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25) Proves Readiness, Not a Two-Tier Rapture
- His Logic: trying to use the wise and foolish virgins to prove some believers stay behind.
- The Flaw: In Matthew 25, the foolish virgins represent those who have no oil (no genuine spiritual life/salvation). When they knock on the door, the master says, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you" (v. 12). Jesus doesn't say, "I know you, you're just my carnal, crownless believers who need to suffer a bit more." He says He never knew them. It’s a separation of the saved and the unsaved, not a split-level rapture of genuine Christians.
3. The Noah Analogy (Matthew 24) Backfires on Pre-Trib
- His Logic: Pointing to the Noah analogy to claim believers are removed while others stay.
- The Flaw: In Matthew 24:37–39, Jesus says it will be like the days of Noah: "and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away." In Noah's story, who was "taken away" in judgment? The ungodly world! Noah and his family were safely left behind on the earth inside the ark while the wicked were swept away. Using Noah to argue for a pre-trib escape actually flips the imagery completely upside down.
I’m not hung up on it, I think it points to two separate harvests.
Chronologically, which comes first the dead in Christ rising or the tares being gathered? Only one can come first if you have only one harvest.
Wasn't it?
Colossians 1
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Romans 10
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”[i]
Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
Colossians 1
5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.
@rebuilder 454
That is because when Christ comes again to earth, the people of God remain on the earth and the wicked are swept away in a destruction that leaves them neither root nor branch, they are gone, burned up in fiery wrath, while the people of God inherit the earth (new earth)The NT apostles and OT prophets agree completely
Malachi 4
1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
2 Thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thess 1 AND Malachi 4 also implies their location!
Which is the righteous saints were on the earth on the Last Day living among the wicked and the Great Day of God came and they inherit the earth.
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Why does it matter which comes first, it all happens on the same Last Day for this world-age.
Teaching of Christ and the apostles does not point to a long 1000 years time between resurrections and our being changed to be like His glorified body.
The dead rising first, the living church who remained on earth till He comes, that happens in a moment of time.
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
God can discern the time apart in microseconds, but for us who experience this, it is nearly instantaneous. We are basically all raised up together at the same moment in time preceded by microseconds this or that..
In the blink of an eye....
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