Only the Apostles were Predestined

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1stCenturyLady

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Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Farther down in John 6 we see there were many who did not follow Jesus any more, so they were snatched from the Father's hand, but not the apostles.

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.
 
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MatthewG

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I would say! What an interesting find, 1stCenturyLady.

I'm surprised no one has yet to argue against this. Its definitely something to behold.

Considering this, sometimes the "us", pertains to the Apostles. Wouldn't you say?

I can't think of an exact example, maybe I will go and read the bible a little bit and find one. However, if I remember correctly, it goes from "us", then to "you" when the language is switching between the two distinctions.

From my own belief, while I see Yeshua having had come to rescue the bride which was pure, holy, and blameless, I do believe there was some gentile believers which too, were also saved from the destruction which had overcame Jerusalem which started slowly over time, until that great, and dreadful day.

Just curious your thoughts on this.
 

Truly

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I will add a few verses to your post

These were for signs and for wonders in Israel

Isaiah 8:18 (( Behold I )) and the children whom the LORD (( hath given me))
are for signs and for wonders (( in )) Israel from the LORD of hosts,
which dwelleth (( in )) mount Zion.

John 6:65 And he said, (( Therefore )) said I unto you,
that no man (( can come unto me )),
except it were (( given unto )) him of my Father.

Predestined unto "the adoption of children" by Christ (unto the Father)

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us
unto (( the adoption of)) children (( by Jesus Christ )) to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,

"I and the children"

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also;
and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Again

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me
are for signs and for wonders in Israel

We know, the "Behold, I" of Isaiah 8:18 is Jesus

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (Luke 7:22 also)

Both he (Jesus) and they were for signs and wonders in Israel,

Jesus also said

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that believeth on me, and greater works than these shall he do;
because I go unto my Father.

The children of Isaiah 8:18 and the confirming the word with signs spoken of there as here

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, (Galatians 1:16 and Galatians 2:8) the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

Shown in Peter

Acts 3:12... Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? (Luke 24:49)

Paul among these also

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. ( even as Christ Jesus is called an Apostle also in Hebrews 3:1)

And following the same course as shown in the Lord

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (Acts 2:22)

As with Christ, even in Paul (as with Peter) being anointed with the Holy Ghost

2 Cr 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Having been anointed with the Holy Ghost and power we see in them which are sent

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. (Mark 16:20 & 2 Corinthians 12:12)

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Christ in them also (Galatians 1:16 & Galatians 2:8)

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Paul also prayed the same for them saying

2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ was also set for a sign to be spoken against

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

He was going to be spoken against in those who preached Him (Acts 13:35) Christ in them

Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. (1 Peter 4:14)

Jesus prays for these (which are given him) and in whom he is glorified saying

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Then cut in the following (children given) him as Christ says, "all thine are mine" (even as he is given "to them" Isaiah 55:4 & Acts 2:36) showing the same between the verses following in Israel Acts 2:22, Acts 3:12, Acts 3:24-26, Acts 7:37

And as the Father sent Christ (approved of God among them) by miracles, signs, and wonders they are for the same also, following the same course, sending them

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

And the Lord works with them (shown as children) shows he confirms the word through them with signs

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, (Galatians 1:16 and Galatians 2:8) the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

As Jesus prayed for those the Father has given to him (having given them the words given to him) Jesus continues,

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And for this cause they gave thanks here also

1 Thes 2:16 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I would say! What an interesting find, 1stCenturyLady.

I'm surprised no one has yet to argue against this. Its definitely something to behold.

Considering this, sometimes the "us", pertains to the Apostles. Wouldn't you say?

I can't think of an exact example, maybe I will go and read the bible a little bit and find one. However, if I remember correctly, it goes from "us", then to "you" when the language is switching between the two distinctions.

From my own belief, while I see Yeshua having had come to rescue the bride which was pure, holy, and blameless, I do believe there was some gentile believers which too, were also saved from the destruction which had overcame Jerusalem which started slowly over time, until that great, and dreadful day.

Just curious your thoughts on this.
I haven't seen the words "us" or "you" as key words. It has to do with the words the Father gives to the Son. Matthew another key word that John uses is in his first epistle chapter one and two. The word "say" denotes a liar that says one thing but does another. See 1 John 2:4 for proof. Therefore, 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are not Christians. Verse 7 is a Christian because they don't just say something, they walk the walk.

After all in 1 John 1:9 when a person confesses their sin they are cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. So, if they "say" they are free from sin, are they still a liar as verse 8 denotes? NO! They have received the Holy Spirit which gives us power to not sin, chapter 3, Acts 2:38 is its counterpart from Paul.
 
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quietthinker

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Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Farther down in John 6 we see there were many who did not follow Jesus any more, so they were snatched from the Father's hand, but not the apostles.

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.
What do you do with Romans 5?
 

Taken

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Only the Apostles were Predestined

Not true.

Destiny meaning;
* A Determined Result.

Pre- Destiny meaning;
* Is Knowledge of the Result BEFORE the Result IS Manifested.

Manifested meaning;
* A RESULT is Realized, Effected, come into Fruition.

Human men…Wait to DISCOVER / KNOW WHAT their DESTINY ~
FINAL RESULT Regarding THEIR LIFE…
WILL BE.

Every man-KIND of Being’s DESTINY…
IS ALREADY “Pre~DESTIN” ~ “KNOWN” …
BY God… WHO, Knows ALL Things!


A “FEW” humans, Discover and “ACCEPT” “THEIR” Destiny,
While “MANY” humans, Challenge, Debate, Argue, Reject, Deny, “THEIRS” and “OTHERS” Destiny…
OF WHICH:
The ALL Knowing God, HAS ALREADY “PREPARED” A Place FOR the Destiny - The Final “PLACE” FOR EVERY human and “Other Thing” OF Gods Creations.


No…
PreDestiny, Does Not exclusively Apply to ONLY the Apostles.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

MatthewG

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Only the Apostles were Predestined

Not true.

Destiny meaning;
* A Determined Result.

Pre- Destiny meaning;
* Is Knowledge of the Result BEFORE the Result IS Manifested.

Manifested meaning;
* A RESULT is Realized, Effected, come into Fruition.

Human men…Wait to DISCOVER / KNOW WHAT their DESTINY ~
FINAL RESULT Regarding THEIR LIFE…
WILL BE.

Every man-KIND of Being’s DESTINY…
IS ALREADY “Pre~DESTIN” ~ “KNOWN” …
BY God… WHO, Knows ALL Things!


A “FEW” humans, Discover and “ACCEPT” “THEIR” Destiny,
While “MANY” humans, Challenge, Debate, Argue, Reject, Deny, “THEIRS” and “OTHERS” Destiny…
OF WHICH:
The ALL Knowing God, HAS ALREADY “PREPARED” A Place FOR the Destiny - The Final “PLACE” FOR EVERY human and “Other Thing” OF Gods Creations.


No…
PreDestiny, Does Not exclusively Apply to ONLY the Apostles.

Glory to God,
Taken
Hello Taken,

So would you say in your belief God has predestined people to go to straight to hell? Or predestined them to never come to truth?

You don’t have to answer if you’re uncomfortable with it.
 
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Apparently, the OP and others here do not know what the words "predestinate" and "predestinated" mean when used in scripture.

The words “predestinated” and “predestinate” appear only four times in the Bible in Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:29, and Romans 8:30.

Beginning with Ephesians 1:5, we read:

"Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph. 1:5)

In context, the "us" who have been "predestinated" are "the saints" or "the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1), and NOT just the Apostles. Furthermore, this passage tells us exactly what "the saints" or "the faithful in Christ Jesus" have been "predestinated" unto, and that is "the adoption of children.”

The underlying Greek word "huiothesia,” which is here translated into English as "adoption,” does not carry the same meaning that our modern-day English word “adoption” carries. Instead, this underlying Greek word literally means “to place as an adult son.”


“The word adoption in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word huiothesia, which means ‘the placing of an adult son’ and refers to the formal act of recognizing the maturity of an adult son. The word is found in five New Testament passages: Rom. 8:15,23: 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5.

The new-born baby is brephos, as in ‘the babe (brephos), lying in a manger...’. The word sometimes refers to the fetus, as in ‘...the babe (brephos) leapt in her womb...’. The believer is also called teknon, a child which is growing up but which is still under parental care. Hence John 1:12, ‘...to them gave he power to become the sons (teknon) of God.’ But the believer is also in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is called huios, ‘an adult son’. So, in union with him, we are said to be adult sons also, although we may be brephos or teknon by experience.

To the people living in the predominantly Greek and Roman culture of the 1st Century A.D., the word huiothesia would bring to mind the ceremony of toga virilis, in which a 14-year-old boy went through an investiture ceremony with the adult male members of his family. At this ceremony, speeches of challenge to the youth would be made, and offerings would be made to the gods. Then, the boy would stand in the center of the group and take off the child's garment that he wore. A new adult man's robe, or toga, would be placed on him. This was the toga virilis, the ‘robe of a man.’

At this time, the 14-year-old was given adult privileges and responsibilities. He could conduct business in his own name, could buy and sell property, could marry, could vote in the Assembly, and in many other ways could carry on as an adult citizen. Of course, he was not mature enough or wise enough to exercise all of the privileges he had; and he was not experienced enough to live up to all of the responsibilities. But the seriousness of his position as a citizen was impressed on him; and if he was intelligent and hardworking, he would grow up to be an adult having integrity and character.”

As we just read, the word "adoption," as it is used in the Bible, refers to a Roman coming-of-age ceremony, which would be the equivalent of a Jewish Bar Mitzvah, and Paul perfectly explained this coming-of-age ceremony in Galatians chapter 4.

There, we read:

"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he is lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the ADOPTION of sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Gal. 4:1-7)

In Roman culture, if I had a young son who would eventually be my heir, then he would have been "under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father," or until the time of his "adoption," or until the time of his placing as an adult son arrived. In other words, when my son would have reached a certain age, there would have been a coming-of-age ceremony or an "adoption" which would have signified that my son was passing from the classification of a child who "differs nothing from a servant" unto the classification of an adult son. During this ceremony, my son would have been donned with what was called a toga virilis, and the donning of this toga virilis would have conferred important rights and privileges to my son who would have then been deemed to be an adult in society.


Paul, who was a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25-29), used this Roman custom to describe the purpose of "the law" in the life of a believer. "The law" was our "tutor and governor until the time appointed of the father," or until the time came that we were redeemed from "differing nothing from servants" by the blood of Christ, and we received "the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” In fact, Paul referred to this same "Spirit" as "the Spirit of adoption" in his epistle to the Romans.

Turning there, we read:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the EARNEST expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." (Rom. 8:14-25)

"The spirit of bondage again to fear" pertains directly to "the law," which Paul likened to the bondmaid/bondwoman Hagar in Galatians 4:21-31, and which "genders to bondage" (Gal. 4:24). In other words, "the law" kept people in both "bondage" and "fear" in that it rightly identified what sin was, but offered no deliverance from the same apart from saving faith in Christ. With such being the case, those who were under "the law" were not only in "bondage" to sin, but they also had a "fearful" expectation of coming judgment. In stark contrast to these, we who have placed our saving faith in Christ have received a totally different "Spirit"…"the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”

Here is what is interesting, though, and this truth cannot be missed:

Neither our "adoption" nor our "redemption" are yet complete. No, as Paul himself said, Christians have merely received "the first-fruits of the Spirit,” or what he elsewhere called "the earnest of the Spirit" (2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:13-14), and we are still "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body” (Rom. 8:23). Yes, Paul said that this "adoption" or "redemption of our body" is what Christians "hope for" and "with patience wait for it” (Rom. 8:25).

Furthermore, Paul's use of the word "earnest" in this portion of scripture refers to a real estate term or to earnest money.


In real estate, when somebody plans on purchasing a building, they will give a deposit or a down payment of earnest money, which signifies that they earnestly intend to complete the transaction at a future time. Where Christians are concerned, neither our "adoption" nor our "redemption" will be complete until the time comes that we receive glorified bodies. Until that day arrives, God has given us "the earnest of the Spirit" to signify that he plans to complete his purchase at that time.

To this end, Paul wrote:

"In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Eph. 1:13-14)

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)

Again, as Christians, we have presently only received "that holy Spirit OF PROMISE, which is THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION," or until the yet coming "day of redemption.” This yet coming "day of redemption" is the same exact "adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" that Paul wrote of in Rom. 8:23.

(Continued in my next post)
 
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(Continued from my previous post)

As a Roman son was not fully deemed to be "an heir" until the time came that he donned his toga virilis, we, as Christians, will not receive our inheritances until the time comes that we don our glorified bodies at the second coming of Christ. If we understand what the word "adoption" meant in the time of Paul, and the significance of the donning of the toga virilis, then we will also understand why Paul used terminology in line with putting on new clothing in relation to our glorified bodies.

For example, we read:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:51-55)

Notice the changing of the garment or when "this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.” Again, this takes place at the second coming of Christ when we will receive "the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). This changing of the garment becomes even more evident in Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians.

There. we read:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, EARNESTLY desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also has given unto us the EARNEST of the Spirit." (2 Cor. 5:1-5)

Here, we not only read of how Christians are "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven…that mortality might be swallowed up of life,” but we also read of how God has "given unto us the earnest of the Spirit" in relation to the same. Again, Paul's use of the word “earnest” pertains directly to earnest money that was given in real estate purchases, and it is no wonder that it appears here in relation to our "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our HOUSE which is from heaven.”

In the same way that a Roman adoption was not complete until a new toga virilis was donned, our own adoptions will not be complete until the time comes that we receive glorified bodies at the second coming of Christ. THIS is what all Christians have truly been "predestinated unto" (Eph. 1:5), and, again, it will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ.

To this end, Paul wrote:

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Eph. 1:9-11)

Again, Christians have been "predestinated…unto the adoption of children" (Eph. 1:5), and such will be completed in "the fulness of times" or when God "gathers together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth.” As Paul wrote elsewhere (1 Thess. 4:13-17), at Christ's second coming, the dead in Christ (those "which are in heaven") will rise first to receive their glorified bodies, and then the Christians who are yet alive (those "which are on earth") will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to receive their glorified bodies as well.

Well, now that we hopefully understand what all Christians have truly been "predestinated unto," let us look at the last two places in scripture where the word "predestinate" appears.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom. 8:29-30)

Notice that foreknowledge precedes predestination in scripture. Seeing how God truly knows what is going to happen in advance, he has predestinated all Christians "to be conformed to the image of his Son,” and, again, this is speaking in relation to Christians receiving the same type of glorified bodies that Jesus has at his second coming.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Apparently, the OP and others here do not know what the words "predestinate" and "predestinated" mean when used in scripture.

The words “predestinated” and “predestinate” appear only four times in the Bible in Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:29, and Romans 8:30.

Beginning with Ephesians 1:5, we read:

"Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Eph. 1:5)

In context, the "us" who have been "predestinated" are "the saints" or "the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1), and NOT just the Apostles. Furthermore, this passage tells us exactly what "the saints" or "the faithful in Christ Jesus" have been "predestinated" unto, and that is "the adoption of children.”


"In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Eph. 1:13-14)

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)

Again, as Christians, we have presently only received "that holy Spirit OF PROMISE, which is THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION," or until the yet coming "day of redemption.” This yet coming "day of redemption" is the same exact "adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" that Paul wrote of in Rom. 8:23.
What I said in the OP is how John uses "key words." In his gospel he signifies that the "Father gave" him his apostles. In his epistle he uses the word "say" to show fake Christians. They say, but do not walk.

Of course in Ephesians 1 he is writing to the Ephesians, but then he introduces himself as one of the apostles who were predestinated.

Learn from this or not.
 

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What I said in the OP is how John uses "key words." In his gospel he signifies that the "Father gave" him his apostles. In his
^This^ is how I understood you, those given Jesus Christ, "Behold I (Jesus) and the children (those the Father had given him in that context) seeing that the same were specifically for "signs and for wonders" in Israel (to whom Jesus was first sent) and Jesus prayed for these (and not for the world) but includes praying also for them who would believe on Jesus through their word.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And for this cause they gave thanks here also

1 Thes 2:16 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Next verse

1 Thes 2:17 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And similarly, Paul said,

2Cr 12:2 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Which had Christ in them, and the same said,

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

I don't believe it excludes anyone who believes on their word, because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of adoption which was for them (who believed in Christ through their word) as it was for their children and also those who were afar off (the Gentiles).

But these were specific to Israel being for signs and for wonders in Israel

Isaiah 8:18 (( Behold I )) and the children whom the LORD (( hath given me))
are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts,
which dwelleth in mount Zion.
 

Truly

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^This^ is how I understood you, those given Jesus Christ, "Behold I (Jesus) and the children (those the Father had given him in that context) seeing that the same were specifically for "signs and for wonders" in Israel (to whom Jesus was first sent) and Jesus prayed for these (and not for the world) but includes praying also for them who would believe on Jesus through their word.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And for this cause they gave thanks here also

1 Thes 2:16 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Next verse

1 Thes 2:17 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And similarly, Paul said,

2Cr 12:2 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Which had Christ in them, and the same said,

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

I don't believe it excludes anyone who believes on their word, because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of adoption which was for them (who believed in Christ through their word) as it was for their children and also those who were afar off (the Gentiles).

But these were specific to Israel being for signs and for wonders in Israel

Isaiah 8:18 (( Behold I )) and the children whom the LORD (( hath given me))
are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts,
which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Correction on the two verses

Correction concerning the two verses posted one behind the other (as 1Thes 2:16 and 2:17) I copied these incorrectly (the first verse IS 1Thes 2:13 and NOT 1Thes 2:16) and then followed it up with 1 Thes 2:17 (which is really 2 Thes 2:14). I butchered that one not double checking my verses. The two places follow "thanks" but 2Thes 2:14 follows this verse

2Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification
of the Spirit and belief of the truth
:

2Thes 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It doesnt change anything except that it is wrongly placed, and it will bug me if I don't correct that.

This verse can just stand alone in the context of Jesus praying for those who would believe in their word

1Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

The 2:13's in books 1 &2 got mixed up between them, my fault.
 

ScottA

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Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Farther down in John 6 we see there were many who did not follow Jesus any more, so they were snatched from the Father's hand, but not the apostles.

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.
This is the thinking of men who have no understanding of what the world is and how it works.

The history of the world is not unfolding--it is only the revelation of it that is unfolding.

Thus, predestination does not mean that the fate of people yet born was first determined and then lived out without freewill. Nor does that mean freewill does not exist. Contrary to any such thinking or ideas, just as it is proper and correct for us to say we "were" crucified with Christ, it is also proper and correct to say we preexisted with Christ, at which point (before time) we had freewill--and yet it is just now being revealed--just as Christ also came and was revealed in His own time of revealing.

The world therefore, is a page-by-page revelation like the reading of a book that was written then read after the fact. Understand, that it is only by worldly blindness--blindness by sin and separation from God, that all that is true (even of our own lives) is just now being revealed to us. This is an act of God, that we have freewill, and it is revealed in personal testimony before the Judgement. Which one should not think of as if we can not change--but rather that surely we would turn from our sins and change, and now is our chance to walk it out--to prove it. This is what is meant by Paul's instructions to "workout your own salvation."

Let the reader understand.
 
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DJT_47

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I've published this before, but here it is again for consideration

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise:
God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
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Scott Downey

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God certainly has predestined all things as God is the Creator and God knows all things as God determines all things, because He is God and there is none like Him

God's ways are far above our own ways.

People, do not make God in your image, that is a big error.

Isaiah 46

8 “Remember this, and [b]show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.
 

Scott Downey

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Jesus told His people
Luke 10:20
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Those names were written there from before time began.
If they were not, then God could not be God.

2 Thess 2
13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

 

Scott Downey

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And

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

Scott Downey

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And

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1-3​

New King James Version​

Greeting​

1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only the elect of God will believe and have faith in Christ.