Only Those Who Do the Will of God Will Enter the Kingdom

[Brakelite]

When a person's sins, it is because it was God's "will" for it to happen. God puts all the pieces in place so that the only outcome is for the person to make the decision to sin (even a specific sin and at a specific time). God leaves nothing up to chance or to mankind's "will". The apostate church's false belief in mankind's free will ability is not true. God directs all our steps, including when we sin.

The above short dissertation on the character of God is the most unmitigated disastrous piece of pagan mythology ever to cross the internet and find its way into this forum. It's blasphemy, and you are committing the exact same sin as Adam, blaming your sin on God. What have you done Adam? Oh nothing, this woman you gave to me, she made me do it. Classic denial of responsibility.

 

[soberxp]

The above short dissertation on the character of God is the most unmitigated disastrous piece of pagan mythology ever to cross the internet and find its way into this forum. It's blasphemy, and you are committing the exact same sin was Adam, blaming your sin on God. What have you done Adam? Oh nothing, this woman you gave to me, she made me do it.

Romans
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

While his understanding is correct in a certain sense, you must read his entire writing to discern the goodness or badness of the meaning of his words. I knew beforehand that some would fail to understand what he has said.

The affairs of God are difficult to describe in human language or flesh mind.

 

[Pearl]

yes and walking in LOVE.

Yes, love Jesus, love your neighbour, love your enemy, love those who disagree with you love sinners. LOVE is God's will.

 

[Pearl]

What exactly does it mean to receive Jesus as Savior?

And is Jesus only your Savior or is He also your Lord?

It means to respond to the Holy Spirit by asking God for forgiveness and asking Jesus into your life. Gicing your life to Jesus, dying to self and being born again and Jesus being Lord and Saviour, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[PS95]

Yes, love Jesus, love your neighbour, love your enemy, love those who disagree with you love sinners. LOVE is God's will.

Yes Exactly. And that's the thing..
As a child I was told to love Jehovah. I wanted to since it was a command.. but I didn't. I felt bad about that but I just didn't. I saw Him as angry, demanding, and waiting to squash me if I didn't do everything the JWs told me I had to do to in order to qualify to be given a chance to earn life during the 1000 yr judgment on earth. That was, IF I made it alive through the Great Trib and Armageddon- then I had that chance..
OR if I died before it- then I would be declared sinless by dying to pay for my own sins.. that way I would be sure of resurrection and and could have a second chance to earn life..
All of that was dependent on how good of a JW I was. I had a hard time living in such fear and endless rules to love this God.

It wasn't until my 30's when I prayed and prayed and asked God for HIs truth- when my bible became understandable, and I saw Jesus there full of grace and TRUTH with His arms extended to me.-- offering me forgiveness of my sins-- and a promise and a real HOPE.. Giving His life for me.. That's when I began to love God. He loved me first!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Although,, Jesus could certainly be correct literally of the word sword that He used as a metaphor for violence and any form of weapon, I including words.
Two reasons why it would likely not be your interpretation.
A. In the context He was using that phrase,
“52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? ”
Matthew 26:52-54 KJV

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Obviously nothing to do with conversion.

B. The word perish is never used in scripture pertaining to a death to self or conversation experience, in fact, the exact opposite.

“15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ”
John 3:15-16 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Dear Brakelite,
Okay, I re-read your original post again and I stand by my comments that the verse is teaching about conversion.

You said "Jesus could certainly be correct literally" but this cannot be true. Not all people who literally use a sword or violence will perish by the sword or violence.

In the verse, Christ is speaking in His spiritual language because He is teaching. Scripture says that Jesus only taught in parables. What Christ said to Peter was a form of parable because His message was not literal and its message was presented in Christ's spiritual language. Christ taught in this way so that only converted believers would be able to understand His true message.

As I pointed out earlier, the spirit word "sword" means the Word of God who is Christ. When Christ said to Peter that all who take up the sword (those who have the Early Rain and who follow Him) will perish by the sword, He is teaching on conversion. This understanding is absolutely true because after Christ gives a person the Early Rain (now a babe who has taken up the Sword), Christ (after a time of waiting) will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is what heals the spiritual blindness of the follower because the baptism of the Spirit gives the person a new birth as a child of God. Since only a child of God has "ears that can hear", the person will now be able to consume truth from God's Word. After the believer has consumed sufficient truth, it will cause judgment to fall on the child of the Devil and cause him to perish.

This is what this verse is teaching:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (man of sin/worsened child of the Devil) be revealed (because the person has had their blindness healed), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth (Spirit of Truth), and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (by the brightness of the Word of God/truth/light/Sword):

Everything that I just described happens "within" the person. It is all spiritual. It is in this way that a person becomes a child of God and is no longer a child of the Devil. This is conversion.

When you understand Christ's statement about perishing by the Sword in this way, His statement is absolutely true 100% of the time.

You also mentioned this scripture, too:

Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Verses 51-52 are given to us to complete the spiritual message Christ is teaching.

Under the New Covenant, Christ is the High Priest and those who follow Him (like Peter) are His servants. This is why Peter had a Sword because it represents that Peter was a follower of Christ (he took up the Sword). The "ear" symbolizes having the ability to understand God's Word. When Peter smote off the ear of the servant, it means that Peter used God's Word in such a way that truth could not be heard by the other servant. In other words, Peter used the Sword (Word of God) in a carnal way as all babes do. When a babe uses the Sword in this manner, truth cannot be received by the hearer. Peter was then told to put up the sword into its place because Peter did not yet have the ability to properly use it. Peter received the ability to properly use the Sword on the Day of Pentecost when his spiritual blindness was healed after he received the Latter Rain.

Since what I stated above may not be clear, I will restate it a different way below:

The carnal mind of babes in Christ understands the Word of God in a carnal way (literally and outwardly). They can understand "Christ and Him crucified" (the physical work of Christ) but the truth of Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant will largely be misunderstood by them. When a babe tries to teach others Christ's spiritual truths, they will teach error and not truth. This is why Peter was told to put His Sword away.

In contrast to a babe in Christ, a converted believer will have "eyes that can see" and will understand God's Word in a spiritual way (symbolically and inwardly). Only then can the person properly use the Sword to teach others.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The above short dissertation on the character of God is the most unmitigated disastrous piece of pagan mythology ever to cross the internet and find its way into this forum. It's blasphemy, and you are committing the exact same sin as Adam, blaming your sin on God. What have you done Adam? Oh nothing, this woman you gave to me, she made me do it. Classic denial of responsibility.

Dear Brakelite,
As I have been presenting, Paul must have heard similar comments as yours about his teaching that it is God's "will" for mankind to sin. Paul responded to them in this way:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Paul's response is my response to you.

Joe

 

[Pearl]

Yes Exactly. And that's the thing..
As a child I was told to love Jehovah. I wanted to since it was a command.. but I didn't. I felt bad about that but I just didn't. I saw Him as angry, demanding, and waiting to squash me if I didn't do everything the JWs told me I had to do to in order to qualify to be given a chance to earn life during the 1000 yr judgment on earth. That was, IF I made it alive through the Great Trib and Armageddon- then I had that chance..
OR if I died before it- then I would be declared sinless by dying to pay for my own sins.. that way I would be sure of resurrection and and could have a second chance to earn life..
All of that was dependent on how good of a JW I was. I had a hard time living in such fear and endless rules to love this God.

It wasn't until my 30's when I prayed and prayed and asked God for HIs truth- when my bible became understandable, and I saw Jesus there full of grace and TRUTH with His arms extended to me.-- offering me forgiveness of my sins-- and a promise and a real HOPE.. Giving His life for me.. That's when I began to love God. He loved me first!

It is horrendous to think how many souls have been lost because of the wrongful teachings of cults like the Watchtower Organisation. But I am so glad to hear that you 'saw the light' and now know the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your views are largely the same. He probably overlooked that good deeds don't need to be judged, which is why he wrote it that way—and I might have done the same.

Regarding your understanding that what Paul referred to was his work of establishing churches, I believe it also refers to our work of building up the faith. The two are mutual and simultaneous.

They are not the same.
It is not MY understanding...
it's what Christian theology teaches.

It could easily be found now that we have the internet.

 

[GodsGrace]

At least this is a current consensus on the impact caused by AI.

When people face AI, they may feel that it is "too AI-like"—this is likely a manifestation of the uncanny valley effect in humans.

I asked Ai the question:
If AI renders human translators jobless, how should they face the impact brought by AI and find their own value?

When facing the impact of AI, the core breakthrough for human translators lies in shifting from "language conversion tools" to "cross-cultural value communicators". AI can translate words accurately, but it cannot replace humans' in-depth insight into cultural contexts, emotional intentions, and professional scenarios.

Specifically, one can reshape their own value by focusing on three directions:

1. Deepen expertise in "fields where AI is weak": Focus on high-complexity scenarios, such as the rigorous verification of legal contracts, the restoration of emotional tension in literary works, and the adaptation of professional terminology in medical records. These scenarios require a combination of industry knowledge and humanistic judgment, which are the shortcomings of AI.
2. Develop "translation +" composite capabilities: Integrate translation skills with other fields. For example, become a "translation + localization operation" expert (helping brands adapt to cultural expressions in different markets) or a "translation + cross-cultural consulting advisor" (resolving cultural conflicts in international cooperation), thereby forming irreplaceable composite competitiveness that AI cannot replicate.
3. Leverage AI as an "efficiency amplifier": Use AI as a basic translation tool to save time on mechanical work, and devote energy to higher-value tasks—such as optimizing the fluency of translated content, providing customized translation solutions for clients, and correcting cultural references or professional errors missed in AI translations.

In short, AI replaces "standardized translation work", while the new value of human translators lies precisely in the cultural warmth, professional depth, and communication accuracy that AI "lacks".

I wasn't referring only to translation.
AI is going to effect everything.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not upset- but maybe if you read your own posts you will see I felt it was wiser to stop the convo. look at your accusations- and you want to tell me I am not loving. lol

Please post the accusations.
I know we're super sensitized these days,,,
but even with that - I don't believe I've accused you of anything.

 

[GodsGrace]

Excuse me- i posted scripture- you just didn't recognize it---
Faith- works- NEITHER is MORE IMPORTANT THAN LOVE-

1 Corinthians 13

Gifts
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal"

Giving away all things- or being a martyr

"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

OR the gift of prophecy or all knowledge OR all FAITH?

" If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing"

God sees the heart- the motive! Without a changed heart- nothing matters. THAT is what God does.- circumcises the heart!
You aren't arguing with me.. it's scripture. AND yes it absolutely has also been my experience that you mocked.

Why are you speaking to me about something I already know?

What I'M speaking about is OBEDIENCE.
God demands our obedience.
Obedience includes doing good works.

WHY do I get push-back on this?
Do YOU believe we're to obey God?
Do YOU believe we're to do good works?

What you're saying that is NOT taught in the NT, if I've understood you correctly, is that once a person is saved he can never
lose that salvation.

This is not what the NT teaches.
It's a new teaching that was never part of the early church.
It has come about since the reformation....that was in 1500AD -
the church has been here since 30AD.....
it's a slightly different version of Preservation of the Saints and can be traced back to other churches besides the reformed churches
to about the 1800's.

So, if you care to discuss this, it seems to be an important topic to me since someone's very soul could depend on
understanding this.

If you just want to talk about love and a changed heart...
I agree so there's not much to discuss.

 

[GodsGrace]

A Catholic once explained to me that they believe prayers can be more readily accepted by God through the intercession of Mary.

I respect this explanation, yet I consider it an unnecessary act( matthew 6:7 ) . They hold Mary in high regard, and so do I. In fact, I have even come across depictions of obsession with Mary in some novels.

matthew
6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Yes. That's one explanation why Catholics pray to Mary.
They also believe she imparts many blessings.

In Matthew 6:7-9 Jesus was referring to repeating the same word or words many times in a row.
The Jews still do this at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem.
It means, for example, to repeat over and over: JESUS IS GOOD, JESUS IS GOOD, JESUS IS GOOD.....etc.
It means nothing and is useless for the one praying.

And when Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6:9, He used it as AN EXAMPLE....
He didn't even mean that we were to pray that particular prayer over and over.

It's an example because it covers every type of prayer that there is.
WORSHIP
CONFESSION
GIVING THANKS
SUPPLICATION
PETITION

However, it's such a perfect prayer that it is prayed by every Christian denomination.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
I did reply to those scriptures in a general way.

You said:
Please reply to the verses I provided for you - showing how a person must BELIEVE FIRST in order to be saved.

Yes, a person will believe FIRST before they are saved. I have never said otherwise. The problem you are having is that you don't understand when salvation occurs.

I guess you gave me a test I didn't pass.

Here is a quick summary of what I have presented in some of my posts (with a little more).

Salvation is not getting to go to a place called heaven. Salvation is being converted from a child of the Devil into a child of God. I can't stress this point enough.

Faith,,,
Everything you post is AN OPINION of yours.

I really will not respond to your opinions.

YOU stated that we are SAVED FIRST....
YOU said that first God give us the Holy Spirit...
Persons with the Holy Spirit dwelling are SAVED persons.

THEN
YOU stated that after God gives the Holy Spirit to a person, that person can believe and become born again.

THIS is all I'm interested in --- your word salads do not interest me or anyone else on this thread.

What YOU need to do right now is post SCRIPTURE supporting your theory that someone has to be
BORN AGAIN FIRST
before
They could be BORN AGAIN.

You see, what you have posted is not backed by scripture.

I gave you scripture showing you WHY your opinion is not valid.

I will only reply to scripture proving that a person must be born again first before they can be born again.

Thanks.

After Christ has given a person BOTH the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, they will be "born again" and will become a child of God. Judgment will then follow to remove and destroy all the spiritual things within the person that has caused them to be carnally minded and sinful (a child of the Devil/man of sin). After this judgment is complete, the person is converted and SAVED. It is at this point that a "babe" becomes a "little child" who has entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Heaven is not a place in the sense that you believe because the Kingdom of Heaven is "within" a person.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

After the person is saved and has entered the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ will continue to feed the "little child" His truth (bread & New Wine) to mature them into a man of full age. Along the way, when the child strays, Christ will chastise them so that they will learn His righteous ways.

This verse applies:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The "earth" is the New Earth which represents the person's new spirit that is governed by the Holy Spirit, whereby giving their spirit a divine spiritual nature. It is from the New Earth that the person will learn righteousness.

Now for your point on believing FIRST before a person is saved. That concept is certainly true and is what the scriptures teach.

Here is how it works:

Christ will come to an unbeliever without their asking Him to come and without their permission. When He comes to them, Christ will give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain). This small measure of the Holy Spirit will give them faith when they hear the Word. Their faith will then result in a public confession of faith. This confession is the evidence that they have received the Early Rain. They are then to be baptized in water which represents the same thing. However, the person is not saved at this point because they are not converted yet. They are justified by their faith though and are no longer under the Law of Sin and Death.

What I explained above is the spiritual condition that all the OT faithful had when they died. They were not saved yet (made perfect/converted) but their names will be found in the Lamb's book of Life because of their faith that the Early Rain gave them.

Heb 11:39 And these all (OT faithful), having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (converted).

All believers in this age start off with the spiritual process that I described above. After a person becomes a "babe", they will remain spiritually blind and carnally minded (just as the OT faithful were). In that condition, Satan will deceive them and they will all fall away and become unfaithful. Since they are now unfaithful, they are no longer justified and the Law of Sin and Death still accuses them.

This verse now applies:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

For the apostate babes who are not chosen, Christ will not return to them and pour out the Latter Rain to restore their faith. They will die in their sins and will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

For the apostate babes who are chosen, Christ will return to them and pour out the Latter Rain. This will restore their faith and heal their spiritual blindness. Christ will then appear and convert them into a child of God, destroying the child of the Devil in the process. The person is now converted and "saved".

This verse applies:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The verse above describes our salvation and Christ accomplishes it by His spiritual work of conversion.

The saved person's belief & faith in Christ came FIRST and it was given to them by Christ via the Early and Latter Rains.

As Paul frequently states, salvation is a free gift from God but we all must wait for our turn to be given this gift. In this age, Christ is only saving the people who were blessed from the foundation of the world to be saved first (as First Fruits). They are called the Elect and they will be the heirs of Abraham. They will receive the rewards of having "life" during the ages and the honor of reigning with Christ in the final age.

The purpose of the final age is to judge the "goats". This is symbolized by the goats being cast into the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment, not literal fire). The penalty for their sin is death. But before anyone perishes from this judgment, Christ will have MERCY upon them and will bless them by giving them the Early and Latter Rains. With the Spirit indwelling them, each person will have FAITH which will make Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to them and convert them. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven, leaving the child of the Devil (who they used to be) in the Lake of Fire to perish. This death will satisfy JUSTICE.

These verses apply:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (both the Early and Latter Rain) on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

After the last person of mankind is saved, the scripture below will be testified (legally proven) to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

What I explained above is the true Gospel of Christ.

Joe

I didn't ask you for the gospel.

YOU don't know the gospel IF you believe I have to be infused with the Holy Spirit in order to be born again.

Awaiting your reply.
With scripture showing how a person must be born again before being born again.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means to respond to the Holy Spirit by asking God for forgiveness and asking Jesus into your life. Gicing your life to Jesus, dying to self and being born again and Jesus being Lord and Saviour, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

I think we all agree on this.

Your reply didn't explain what it means for Jesus to be your Lord.
Does it mean that we're to obey Jesus?
Did Jesus tell us to do good works?
Did He say what happens if we do not?

See Pearl, you're stating a teaching that is not in the bible.
You make comments stating that a born again person cannot lost that status.
This is not what Jesus taught...it's not what Paul taught, and it's not what anyone in the early church taught.

I believe that this teaching is very detrimental because it could lead persons to return to their former life and since this would
be disobeying Jesus...it would put their soul in danger.

I THINK you were responding to me when you stated that being born again is the will of God.
This is true....but Jesus stated plainly how to get to heaven...and He didn't stop with John 3:5

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Did Jesus continue on to explain how God wants us to be born again only?
Or did He continue on to explain HOW to do the Father's will?

Matthew 7:24 The Wise Man
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

The Foolish Man
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


Jesus taught that we are to ACT on His words.
If we do not ACT on His words....the house will fall.

 

[PS95]

Why are you speaking to me about something I already know?

How would I know you already know when YOU said this in opposition to me speaking about LOVE being needed--

Well PS,,,you can think about this some more.
A person can give all their belongings away...
but
Do they have faith?
If they do,,,it counts...
if they do not...it does not count.
We have to obey,,,whether we want to or not.
If we do works God is pleased....
If we do them out of fear or to earn something...(your words)
AND we have faith...
WHY do you think we'll be lost.
And why do YOU get to determine who is lost and who is not?

and I gave you this-

Faith- works- NEITHER is MORE IMPORTANT THAN LOVE-

1 Corinthians 13

Gifts
"Though I speak with the tongues of me n and of angels,but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal"

Giving away all things- or being a martyr

"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

OR the gift of prophecy or all knowledge OR all FAITH?

" If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing"

God sees the heart- the motive! Without a changed heart- nothing matters. THAT is what God does.- circumcises the heart!
You aren't arguing with me.. it's scripture. AND yes it absolutely has also been my experience that you mocked.

If you can't say that you were mistaken then I see no need to continue with you.

What I'M speaking about is OBEDIENCE.
God demands our obedience.
Obedience includes doing good works.

Don't treat me as if I don't know the subject. Good works need to come from LOVE. See above.
Your FAITH without LOVE is nothing. Your Good Works without LOVE are nothing.
If you don't obey out of LOVE you have nothing.<-- that was the point, Grace.

WHY do I get push-back on this?
Do YOU believe we're to obey God?
Do YOU believe we're to do good works?

Who is giving you push back? Don't you ever read what I write back to you? Of course I understand obedience and also the reason for it which is the point. I am only saying the truth. You are arguing with scripture.

What you're saying that is NOT taught in the NT, if I've understood you correctly, is that once a person is saved he can never
lose that salvation. This is not what the NT teaches.

It's a new teaching that was never part of the early church.
It has come about since the reformation....that was in 1500AD -
the church has been here since 30AD.....
it's a slightly different version of Preservation of the Saints and can be traced back to other churches besides the reformed churches
to about the 1800's.
So, if you care to discuss this, it seems to be an important topic to me since someone's very soul could depend on
understanding this.

Osas? I have no idea where you got this from. that has nothing to do with anything I posted.

If you just want to talk about love and a changed heart...
I agree so there's not much to discuss.

Ok well that's on you. It is important to GOD- but if you don't think so- ok..
It has not been very enjoyable speaking with you. ciao-

 

[FaithWillDo]

I guess you gave me a test I didn't pass.

Faith,,,
Everything you post is AN OPINION of yours.

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
Persons with the Holy Spirit dwelling are SAVED persons.

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Holy Spirit and will not convert the person - but it does give them their faith whereby they will make a confession of faith when they hear the Word. As long as the babe remains faithful, they will remain justified and no longer under the Law. However, salvation only comes to the person when Christ returns with the Latter Rain (the baptism), followed by judgment.

The time a babe spends waiting on their salvation was typed by Elijah's three and 1/2 years of drought. It is during this time of drought that a babe will become apostate.

James said this to the babes he was writing to in his letter:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh (to bring the Latter Rain).

James 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave Rain (the Latter Rain), and the earth produced its fruit (Wheat/the converted Elect).

After Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ came and devoured the babes in the churches.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things (like the doctrines of Free Will & Hell), to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears (because it was going to happen during their lifetimes).

When the apostasy arrived, it made all the babes in all the churches unfaithful and no longer justified. The babes then became "worse than the first"; a man of sin. This is the fate that awaits every babe shortly after they are given the Early Rain and it has been this way since the end of the 1st century. This is what has produced the nearly 2,000 different denominations of the apostate church in this world. These apostate churches have no unity and are under the deceptions of Satan. They all follow "another gospel" which mixes works with faith.

If a babe is one of the Elect, Christ will shorten their days as a man of sin and will return to them before they die. When He returns, He will make them "ready" by giving them the Latter Rain. This will heal their spiritual blindness and restore their faith. This is the moment a person is "born again". Christ will then appear (His second coming) and begin the Day of the Lord which will destroy the child of the Devil/man of sin (who they used to be). The person will then be converted and saved.

Paul's conversion experience (presented in Acts chapter 9) is the pattern that all the Elect will follow to their moment of conversion/salvation.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them (the Elect) which should hereafter believe on him to life during the ages.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul first called Jesus "Lord" and submitted to His authority. Paul's blindness and inability to eat or drink for three days represented his unconverted spiritual state while he was a babe. The number "three" represents a spiritual process. In Paul's case, it represented when Paul was made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. And for that reason, Paul stayed at the home of a man named "Judas".

After Paul's time of great tribulation (his three days) was complete, Christ caused Paul to pray for understanding. Christ answered his prayer by returning to Paul (typed by Ananias) to pour out the Latter Rain. The scales then fell from Paul's eyes so that Paul could "eat meat". Paul was then born again. Judgment would have then followed (not shown) to complete Paul's conversion and salvation.

These verses apply:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD (Paul's prayer), and he shall send thunder (voice of Christ) and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (had become a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Isa 40:29 He gives power to the weak (Early Rain), and to those who have no might He increases strength. 30 Even the youths (babes) shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall (fall from grace), 31 But those who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength (Latter Rain); they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint (converted and will never fall away again).

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those (Elect babes) who are waiting for him.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Isa 59:9 Therefore is judgment far from us (babes who have the Early Rain), neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness (spiritually blind and apostate).

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (heir of Abraham), when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

The parables of the Ten Virgins, the Prodigal Son, the Wheat and the Tares, the Leavened Bread, the Fowls of the Air and the Good Samaritan all teach certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that Paul's conversion presented. Also, the actual events (types) of the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-10), the healing of the infirmed man at the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15) and the healing of the blind man (Mark 8:15-25) teach certain aspects of the pathway, too.

What these scriptures and parables teach is not just my opinion. However, a person must have the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) and have their spiritual blindness healed in order to be able to understand what they teach.

Mat 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Joe

 

[PS95]

Amen bro. Two scriptures which continued to solidify the truth.
"We love Him (and keep His commandments) because He first loved us".

Note carefully the following. This is Jesus speaking to Moses on Sinai... note what comes first before the law is presented as the standard of obedience...

“1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ”
Exodus 20:1-3 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Before God asks is to obey, He reminds us of what He has done for us. Is it not the same for us as individuals? Who came to God through obedience? No-one. God comes to us through Christ and His eternal grace and mercy, then leads us to obedience to His Commandments. "If you love Me, keep My commandments".

And you know I'm a Seventh Day Adventist right? So I'm talking about all ten. Not 9. Not 9 plus one modified. God didn't change His standard to suit our fallen condition. Nor did He change His standard to suit culture or tradition. As James said. It's all or nothing.

Of course I remember you Brakelight! I'm saddened that you've forgotten me. We had several chats about SDA, sabbath, foods and proj 21.
I don't think it's profitable to argue stumblers such as foods, drinks & days. We will all stand before the Lord.
You should know where I stand on Sabbath keeping. I keep it daily as I rest from my works..(Hebrews 4) We've discussed that before.
Good to see you. I enjoy your posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

How would I know you already know when YOU said this in opposition to me speaking about LOVE being needed--

and I gave you this-

Faith- works- NEITHER is MORE IMPORTANT THAN LOVE-

1 Corinthians 13

Gifts
"Though I speak with the tongues of me n and of angels,but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal"

Giving away all things- or being a martyr

"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

Do persons that give everything away lack love?
Even atheists that give things away have love.

OR the gift of prophecy or all knowledge OR all FAITH?

" If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing"

God sees the heart- the motive! Without a changed heart- nothing matters. THAT is what God does.- circumcises the heart!
You aren't arguing with me.. it's scripture. AND yes it absolutely has also been my experience that you mocked.

I'm arguing with scripture?
And what did I state that does not agree with scripture?

If you can't say that you were mistaken then I see no need to continue with you.

I don't really understand WHY you're even replying.

Don't treat me as if I don't know the subject. Good works need to come from LOVE. See above.
Your FAITH without LOVE is nothing. Your Good Works without LOVE are nothing.
If you don't obey out of LOVE you have nothing.<-- that was the point, Grace.

WHERE in the NT does it state that good works need to come from love?
I remember Jesus saying that we are to ACT ON HIS WORDS.....
If you could post some verses I'd appreciate it.

It seem apparent that if we do good works, we do them out of love.

Who is giving you push back? Don't you ever read what I write back to you?

You're not the only member on the Forum PS.
I get plenty of push-back.

Of course I understand obedience and also the reason for it which is the point. I am only saying the truth. You are arguing with scripture.

Again,, which scripture do you believe I'm arguing with?

Osas? I have no idea where you got this from. that has nothing to do with anything I posted.

You don't believe that a person is saved forever NO MATTER HOW THEY LIVE OR WHAT THEY DO once they're saved?
If so,,,kuddos to you because the NT does not teach OSAS.

Not going back to see how or why I mentioned it.

Ok well that's on you. It is important to GOD- but if you don't think so- ok..

What do YOU think I don't think is important?

It has not been very enjoyable speaking with you. ciao-

How could it be?
You don't understand anything that has been said.

Again,,,please provide the scripture you believe I do not agree with.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear GodsGrace,
You said:
Persons with the Holy Spirit dwelling are SAVED persons.

The Early Rain is a small measure of the Holy Spirit and will not convert the person - but it does give them their faith whereby they will make a confession of faith when they hear the Word. As long as the babe remains faithful, they will remain justified and no longer under the Law. However, salvation only comes to the person when Christ returns with the Latter Rain (the baptism), followed by judgment.

The time a babe spends waiting on their salvation was typed by Elijah's three and 1/2 years of drought. It is during this time of drought that a babe will become apostate.

James said this to the babes he was writing to in his letter:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh (to bring the Latter Rain).

James 5:17 Elijah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave Rain (the Latter Rain), and the earth produced its fruit (Wheat/the converted Elect).

After Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ came and devoured the babes in the churches.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things (like the doctrines of Free Will & Hell), to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears (because it was going to happen during their lifetimes).

When the apostasy arrived, it made all the babes in all the churches unfaithful and no longer justified. The babes then became "worse than the first"; a man of sin. This is the fate that awaits every babe shortly after they are given the Early Rain and it has been this way since the end of the 1st century. This is what has produced the nearly 2,000 different denominations of the apostate church in this world. These apostate churches have no unity and are under the deceptions of Satan. They all follow "another gospel" which mixes works with faith.

If a babe is one of the Elect, Christ will shorten their days as a man of sin and will return to them before they die. When He returns, He will make them "ready" by giving them the Latter Rain. This will heal their spiritual blindness and restore their faith. This is the moment a person is "born again". Christ will then appear (His second coming) and begin the Day of the Lord which will destroy the child of the Devil/man of sin (who they used to be). The person will then be converted and saved.

Paul's conversion experience (presented in Acts chapter 9) is the pattern that all the Elect will follow to their moment of conversion/salvation.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them (the Elect) which should hereafter believe on him to life during the ages.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. That is when Paul first called Jesus "Lord" and submitted to His authority. Paul's blindness and inability to eat or drink for three days represented his unconverted spiritual state while he was a babe. The number "three" represents a spiritual process. In Paul's case, it represented when Paul was made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. And for that reason, Paul stayed at the home of a man named "Judas".

After Paul's time of great tribulation (his three days) was complete, Christ caused Paul to pray for understanding. Christ answered his prayer by returning to Paul (typed by Ananias) to pour out the Latter Rain. The scales then fell from Paul's eyes so that Paul could "eat meat". Paul was then born again. Judgment would have then followed (not shown) to complete Paul's conversion and salvation.

These verses apply:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD (Paul's prayer), and he shall send thunder (voice of Christ) and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (had become a man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Isa 40:29 He gives power to the weak (Early Rain), and to those who have no might He increases strength. 30 Even the youths (babes) shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall (fall from grace), 31 But those who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength (Latter Rain); they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint (converted and will never fall away again).

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those (Elect babes) who are waiting for him.

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Isa 59:9 Therefore is judgment far from us (babes who have the Early Rain), neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness (spiritually blind and apostate).

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (heir of Abraham), when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

The parables of the Ten Virgins, the Prodigal Son, the Wheat and the Tares, the Leavened Bread, the Fowls of the Air and the Good Samaritan all teach certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that Paul's conversion presented. Also, the actual events (types) of the woman taken in adultery (John 8:3-10), the healing of the infirmed man at the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15) and the healing of the blind man (Mark 8:15-25) teach certain aspects of the pathway, too.

What these scriptures and parables teach is not just my opinion. However, a person must have the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) and have their spiritual blindness healed in order to be able to understand what they teach.

Mat 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Joe

You should write a book.
You sure do like to talk.

How about replying to my scripture instead?

Guess you can't do it.
Difficult to argue with scripture.

Post scripture that PROVES that we must have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us BEFORE we can become born again.
Or do not bother responding.