Only Those Who Do the Will of God Will Enter the Kingdom

[bdavidc]

The first part of your sentence is correct.
The second part is not understandable.
Are you saying that if a person sins they become lost?
Be consistent.

The last part of your sentence is almost blasphemous.
It stating that if a believer sins, it's OK because:

1. God will put up with it.
2. God is unable to keep him from sinning.

In either case, it's incorrect.

What I meant is very simple. A real Christian might still do wrong things sometimes, but they don’t stay that way. God doesn’t forget about them or let them keep running away. He loves them too much for that. When His children sin, He corrects them and brings them back. The Bible says, “The Lord disciplines the one He loves” (Hebrews 12:6).

God never says sin is okay—but He also doesn’t throw away His children when they fall. Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish” (John 10:28). Eternal means forever. So if someone really belongs to Jesus, He keeps them safe and helps them stand back up when they fall.

But if a person keeps on living in sin and never turns back, that shows they don’t belong to God at all. The Bible says, “No one who is born of God makes a practice of sinning” (1 John 3:9). And again, “If you are without discipline, then you are illegitimate children and not sons” (Hebrews 12:8).

So no, I wasn’t saying sin is fine. I’m saying God’s true children may stumble, but they don’t stay lost in sin. God’s Spirit lives in them, corrects them, and keeps them close. Those who keep living in sin without any correction or conviction were never His to begin with. “By their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:20).

 

[GodsGrace]

The first principle in Scriptural interpretation is letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

Right!
But YOU don't do that.
You ADD to scripture to twist it to make it say what YOU want it to say.

Must leave for a while.
Later.

1 John 2:19
Did you study up on what John meant?

If not, I really am not going to discuss that one verse.
Happy to discuss any other verser when I get back.

Anyway, even if they WERE professing christians that did not really believe,
it does NOT nullify all the other verses I posted - and there are plenty more.

The Word of God cannot contradict itself. When John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2: 19), context reveals these were professing Christians that were never actually believers. John’s point was not that people could lose salvation but rather that they showed they never had it when they walked away. Jesus taught the same principle: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven… I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21–23). Note He does not say, “I knew you, but you fell away.” He said, “I never knew you.” In other words, there was never a genuine relationship to begin with.

Hebrews 3:12 talks about an unbelieving heart that hardens itself, but that doesn’t mean that true believers can lose their salvation. The same book also says, “We have come to share in Christ if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end” (Hebrews 3:14). Perseverance is the evidence of salvation, not the condition for maintaining salvation. The genuine believer will persevere because God will keep him in Christ. “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

John 15:2 is often cited as proof that believers can lose their salvation. Jesus said, “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away.” But we must ask, What does “in Me” mean in this context? It is talking about outward connection, not inward regeneration. Judas was “in” the group of twelve, but he was never “in Christ” by faith. That is why Jesus said, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away” (John 15:6). If a branch is removed, the evidence proves it never was truly grafted.

The parable of the sower also teaches this. The rocky ground received the word “with joy,” but they had no root (Matthew 13:20–21). The word “root” is the language of life; there was an emotional response but no regeneration. Luke 8: 13 doesn’t say, “believes for a while,” to describe a saving faith. The reason it’s different is because Scripture clearly distinguishes between false belief (John 2: 23–25) and genuine saving faith (1 John 5:4–5).

Jesus promised eternal security to His sheep: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10:27–28). “Never perish” can never mean “perish later.” The same God who gives salvation is the God who keeps salvation. “Kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:5).

Believers are indeed called to endure, but endurance is the fruit of genuine salvation, not the means by which to maintain it. Those who fall away never possessed the new life of the Spirit. The Word of God is not self-contradictory. Salvation is eternal, purchased by Christ’s finished work, not by man’s performance. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me” (John 6:39). If Jesus will not lose any, then none who are truly His will be lost.

When someone battles the truth of salvation security, the spirit in them often reveals one of two things: either they are saved but immature in the Spirit and need to be rebuked by Scripture, or they have never placed their faith in Christ alone, but still believe in some self-effort. The difference is resting in Jesus's finished work or in one's own effort to maintain it. Beware because this is important to the reality of true salvation.

“The Lord knows those who are His” (2 Timothy 2:19). And those who are His will never be lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

What I meant is very simple. A real Christian might still do wrong things sometimes, but they don’t stay that way. God doesn’t forget about them or let them keep running away. He loves them too much for that. When His children sin, He corrects them and brings them back. The Bible says, “The Lord disciplines the one He loves” (Hebrews 12:6).

God never says sin is okay—but He also doesn’t throw away His children when they fall. Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish” (John 10:28). Eternal means forever. So if someone really belongs to Jesus, He keeps them safe and helps them stand back up when they fall.

But if a person keeps on living in sin and never turns back, that shows they don’t belong to God at all. The Bible says, “No one who is born of God makes a practice of sinning” (1 John 3:9). And again, “If you are without discipline, then you are illegitimate children and not sons” (Hebrews 12:8).

So no, I wasn’t saying sin is fine. I’m saying God’s true children may stumble, but they don’t stay lost in sin. God’s Spirit lives in them, corrects them, and keeps them close. Those who keep living in sin without any correction or conviction were never His to begin with. “By their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:20).

I was just going to put a LIKE but then I read the last sentence.
Later.

 

[bdavidc]

Right!
But YOU don't do that.
You ADD to scripture to twist it to make it say what YOU want it to say.

Must leave for a while.
Later.

1 John 2:19
Did you study up on what John meant?

If not, I really am not going to discuss that one verse.
Happy to discuss any other verser when I get back.

Anyway, even if they WERE professing christians that did not really believe,
it does NOT nullify all the other verses I posted - and there are plenty more.

You’re making an accusation without providing any Scriptural support. If I’m “adding” to the Word then quote it where. Otherwise you’re just blowing smoke. The only way to test truth is against the Bible itself, not opinions on how someone might read it.


And yes, I am aware of 1 John 2:19. John is being crystal clear in that passage: “They went out from us, but they were not of us.” John 2:19 does not teach loss of salvation, it identifies false converts who never were born again to begin with. Jesus Himself said the same thing in Matthew 7: 23: “I never knew you”, not “I knew you once”.

We can’t pick and choose verses that we like and ignore context. Scripture does not contradict itself, and it certainly does not have to be re-written to accommodate how we feel. If we claim to be Christ-followers, then we follow His Word, ALL of it, not just the parts we like.

 

[bdavidc]

I was just going to put a LIKE but then I read the last sentence.
Later.

No problem. I am just trying to show you the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

No problem. I am just trying to show you the truth.

I see.
So YOU have the truth...
but
I do not...

even though I post scripture that is plain and simple.

This is an interesting concept.

 

[GodsGrace]

You’re making an accusation without providing any Scriptural support. If I’m “adding” to the Word then quote it where. Otherwise you’re just blowing smoke. The only way to test truth is against the Bible itself, not opinions on how someone might read it.


And yes, I am aware of 1 John 2:19. John is being crystal clear in that passage: “They went out from us, but they were not of us.” John 2:19 does not teach loss of salvation, it identifies false converts who never were born again to begin with. Jesus Himself said the same thing in Matthew 7: 23: “I never knew you”, not “I knew you once”.

We can’t pick and choose verses that we like and ignore context. Scripture does not contradict itself, and it certainly does not have to be re-written to accommodate how we feel. If we claim to be Christ-followers, then we follow His Word, ALL of it, not just the parts we like.

I'm blowing smoke?

Let's see....
Here is YOU posting on John 10:28

John 10:28
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish;

YOU said:

"God never says sin is okay—but He also doesn’t throw away His children when they fall. Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish” (John 10:28). Eternal means forever. So if someone really belongs to Jesus, He keeps them safe and helps them stand back up when they fall."

WHERE in John 10:28 does it state that children fall and God picks them up?
WHERE does it state that God keeps them safe?

YOU have added those two ideas to John 10:28
YOU are adding to scripture.
No smoke blowing.




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Here is your post on Hebrews 12:6

Hebrews 12:6
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

YOU said:

"What I meant is very simple. A real Christian might still do wrong things sometimes, but they don’t stay that way. God doesn’t forget about them or let them keep running away. He loves them too much for that. When His children sin, He corrects them and brings them back. The Bible says, “The Lord disciplines the one He loves” (Hebrews 12:6)."

WHERE does it state that some do wrong but don't stay that way?
WHERE does it state that God doesn't let the ones that do wrong keep running away?
WHERE does it state that GOD brings them back?


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Here is your statement on Matthew 7:20


Matthew 7:20
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.


YOU said:

"So no, I wasn’t saying sin is fine. I’m saying God’s true children may stumble, but they don’t stay lost in sin. God’s Spirit lives in them, corrects them, and keeps them close. Those who keep living in sin without any correction or conviction were never His to begin with. “By their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:20)."

WHERE in Matthew 7:20 does it state that God's children may stumble but they don't stay lost in sin?
WHERE does it state that God's spirit lives in them, corrects them, keeps them close?
WHERE does it state that those that live in sin were never His to begin with?


There's plenty more David.
You do this all the time...
as some do besides yourself.

Scripture is plain and simple and requires no EXPLANATION when posted honestly...
but some need to explain it and explain it INCORRECTLY.

So...you are:
1. Very bad at posting scripture that matches what you want to say as support.
2. You add and twist scripture to make it mean what you WANT it to mean.
3. You're very bad at exegesis.

See David,,,
no smoke blowing.
YOU are the one that blows smoke.

And
BTW
John 15:2 blows away all the smoke you try to build around scripture because JESUS taught that a
believer could be TAKEN AWAY from the vine.

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Please note:
JESUS states that every branch IN HIM...this would be a believer. Believers are IN JESUS.
A believer that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT.....
A believer
that does NOT bear fruit....
Is taken away by God.

Know why David?
Because believers that do not bear fruit are useless.


James 2:16
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?


James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


See, no long winded explanation needed.
Scripture speaks for itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

The first principle in Scriptural interpretation is letting Scripture interpret Scripture. The Word of God cannot contradict itself. When John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2: 19), context reveals these were professing Christians that were never actually believers. John’s point was not that people could lose salvation but rather that they showed they never had it when they walked away. Jesus taught the same principle: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven… I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21–23). Note He does not say, “I knew you, but you fell away.” He said, “I never knew you.” In other words, there was never a genuine relationship to begin with.

Hebrews 3:12 talks about an unbelieving heart that hardens itself, but that doesn’t mean that true believers can lose their salvation. The same book also says, “We have come to share in Christ if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end” (Hebrews 3:14). Perseverance is the evidence of salvation, not the condition for maintaining salvation. The genuine believer will persevere because God will keep him in Christ. “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6).

John 15:2 is often cited as proof that believers can lose their salvation. Jesus said, “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away.” But we must ask, What does “in Me” mean in this context? It is talking about outward connection, not inward regeneration. Judas was “in” the group of twelve, but he was never “in Christ” by faith. That is why Jesus said, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away” (John 15:6). If a branch is removed, the evidence proves it never was truly grafted.

The parable of the sower also teaches this. The rocky ground received the word “with joy,” but they had no root (Matthew 13:20–21). The word “root” is the language of life; there was an emotional response but no regeneration. Luke 8: 13 doesn’t say, “believes for a while,” to describe a saving faith. The reason it’s different is because Scripture clearly distinguishes between false belief (John 2: 23–25) and genuine saving faith (1 John 5:4–5).

Jesus promised eternal security to His sheep: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10:27–28). “Never perish” can never mean “perish later.” The same God who gives salvation is the God who keeps salvation. “Kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:5).

Believers are indeed called to endure, but endurance is the fruit of genuine salvation, not the means by which to maintain it. Those who fall away never possessed the new life of the Spirit. The Word of God is not self-contradictory. Salvation is eternal, purchased by Christ’s finished work, not by man’s performance. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me” (John 6:39). If Jesus will not lose any, then none who are truly His will be lost.

When someone battles the truth of salvation security, the spirit in them often reveals one of two things: either they are saved but immature in the Spirit and need to be rebuked by Scripture, or they have never placed their faith in Christ alone, but still believe in some self-effort. The difference is resting in Jesus's finished work or in one's own effort to maintain it. Beware because this is important to the reality of true salvation.

“The Lord knows those who are His” (2 Timothy 2:19). And those who are His will never be lost.

Or
They don't believe what they're reading.

 

[bdavidc]

I see.
So YOU have the truth...
but
I do not...

even though I post scripture that is plain and simple.

This is an interesting concept.

Truth is not mine or yours, but God’s. Jesus said it plainly, “Your word is truth.” (John 17: 17) What we say that lines up with Scripture in context is truth. What we say that doesn’t line up is error, no matter who is saying it.

Truth is not a matter of who’s “right” but what the Bible actually teaches. “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” (Romans 3: 4) So if you’re going to quote Scripture, be sure to include the context with it, for Satan quoted Scripture when he tempted Jesus. (Matthew 4: 6) The difference is that Jesus rightly handled the Word.

Truth is not whatever each person believes it to be. Truth stands because God said it is.

 

[bdavidc]

I'm blowing smoke?

Let's see....
Here is YOU posting on John 10:28

John 10:28
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish;

YOU said:

"God never says sin is okay—but He also doesn’t throw away His children when they fall. Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish” (John 10:28). Eternal means forever. So if someone really belongs to Jesus, He keeps them safe and helps them stand back up when they fall."

WHERE in John 10:28 does it state that children fall and God picks them up?
WHERE does it state that God keeps them safe?

YOU have added those two ideas to John 10:28
YOU are adding to scripture.
No smoke blowing.




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Here is your post on Hebrews 12:6

Hebrews 12:6
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."

YOU said:

"What I meant is very simple. A real Christian might still do wrong things sometimes, but they don’t stay that way. God doesn’t forget about them or let them keep running away. He loves them too much for that. When His children sin, He corrects them and brings them back. The Bible says, “The Lord disciplines the one He loves” (Hebrews 12:6)."

WHERE does it state that some do wrong but don't stay that way?
WHERE does it state that God doesn't let the ones that do wrong keep running away?
WHERE does it state that GOD brings them back?


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Here is your statement on Matthew 7:20


Matthew 7:20
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.


YOU said:

"So no, I wasn’t saying sin is fine. I’m saying God’s true children may stumble, but they don’t stay lost in sin. God’s Spirit lives in them, corrects them, and keeps them close. Those who keep living in sin without any correction or conviction were never His to begin with. “By their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:20)."

WHERE in Matthew 7:20 does it state that God's children may stumble but they don't stay lost in sin?
WHERE does it state that God's spirit lives in them, corrects them, keeps them close?
WHERE does it state that those that live in sin were never His to begin with?


There's plenty more David.
You do this all the time...
as some do besides yourself.

Scripture is plain and simple and requires no EXPLANATION when posted honestly...
but some need to explain it and explain it INCORRECTLY.

So...you are:
1. Very bad at posting scripture that matches what you want to say as support.
2. You add and twist scripture to make it mean what you WANT it to mean.
3. You're very bad at exegesis.

See David,,,
no smoke blowing.
YOU are the one that blows smoke.

And
BTW
John 15:2 blows away all the smoke you try to build around scripture because JESUS taught that a
believer could be TAKEN AWAY from the vine.

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Please note:
JESUS states that every branch IN HIM...this would be a believer. Believers are IN JESUS.
A believer that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT.....
A believer
that does NOT bear fruit....
Is taken away by God.

Know why David?
Because believers that do not bear fruit are useless.


James 2:16
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?


James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


See, no long winded explanation needed.
Scripture speaks for itself.

I can see why you may have a certain opinion of my post. But just so you know you’re accusing me of something that I’m not guilty of.

You’re cherry-picking verses while denying the context of the passage and the rest of the Bible which interprets itself.

John 10: 28 — “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” That “eternal life” Christ gives is secure in His hand, not ours. That is exactly what I said — Jesus keeps His sheep. That is not me adding to the verse. That is what the rest of the passage teaches — “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (v. 29).

Hebrews 12: 6 speaks plainly that the Lord disciplines His children. Verse 7 goes on, “It is for discipline that you endure; God is treating you as sons.” (See my post below.) When I said that He “corrects” them and “brings them back,” that is precisely what the word discipline means — correction that restores. That is not me “adding,” that is me quoting Scripture in context accurately.

Matthew 7: 20 — “by their fruits you will know them” — is explained two verses later — “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father.” That is not an issue of me “adding” to a text. It is understanding that faith that is alive will produce obedience and false faith that is dead will produce hypocrisy.

As to John 15: 2, note the key phrase: “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.” “Takes away” (airo) in Greek also means “lifts up.” (airo) It is the same word Jesus used in John 11:41 when He said, “They took away the stone.” The vinedresser is lifting the branch up in order to make it bear fruit again. That is not me teaching loss of salvation, it is the Father caring for and pruning His own so that they may be more fruitful (v. 2b).

If you say true believers can be “cut off,” you are calling Jesus a liar in John 10:28 when He says, “They will never perish.” The Word does not contradict itself. The Bible defines believers as those sealed by the Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14), born again (John 3:3), and kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5).

Scripture does not have to be twisted to make a point, but it does have to be read all the way through. Cherry-picking is how false doctrines grow.

 

[bdavidc]

Or
They don't believe what they're reading.

That’s the problem, though, a lot of folks simply don’t believe what they’re reading. They read the words, but they refuse to believe what God so plainly says. Jesus didn’t stutter when He declared, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Eternal means eternal, not temporary.

The same Word also says believers are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1: 13) and “kept by the power of God through faith” (1 Peter 1:5). If you believe a true child of God can lose salvation, then you are saying God’s seal can be broken and His promise can fail, which defies His very own Word.

The problem is not whether the Bible says it, it does. The problem is whether we believe it as written or continue trying to twist it to fit our fears or pride.

I’ve shared Scripture clearly and in context. At this point, it’s obvious we’re not dealing with a disagreement over verses, but with disbelief in what they plainly say. I’m not here to argue endlessly. The Bible stands on its own.

As Paul wrote, “Avoid foolish controversies… for they are unprofitable and worthless” (Titus 3:9). I’ll leave it there and put you on ignore.

 

[Brakelite]

Dear Brakelite,
I will respond to just one of your comments.

Here is the verse again:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

You said:
The sword was a metaphor for all violence and hatred and killing.

That is the same understanding of that verse that you posted earlier and that is what what I responded to in my last post to you.

You have two problems with your understanding.

Firstly, your understanding is demonstrably not true because not all people who use violence will perish by violence. There are countless examples in history. And since Christ does not lie and is never mistaken, your understanding of Christ's statement cannot be true.

Secondly, Christ only teaches in His spiritual language that uses "spirit" words. Spirit words carry meanings that are different than how man's wisdom understands them.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

You are violating what Paul stated above. You have not compared the spirit word "sword" is how it is used elsewhere in scripture, nor have you been guided by the Spirit of Truth to discern the word's true meaning.

When I look to other scripture, I can see that the spirit word "sword" only means the Word of God who is Christ. With the guidance of the Spirit of Truth, the meaning of Christ's statement is "all who begin following Christ after receiving the Early Rain (they have taken up the Sword), will later die by the Word of God when Christ comes to them a second time and converts them. At that time, the child of God is born and the child of the Devil perishes by the Sword (Word of God).

When a believer is not converted, they are carnally minded and spiritually blind. In this condition, they are babes who can only draw milk. They do not have the Spirit of Truth to guide them so that they can understand Christ's spiritual teachings.

So why does Christ not allow a babe to understand His truth of the New Covenant?

It's because the pathway to salvation includes a time of great tribulation where each babe will be deceived by Satan and become apostate; a man of sin.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

You don't seem to believe that this scripture above applies to you. It has been my experience that the reason most babes don't think it applies to them is because they believe in the false doctrine of Free Will. When a babe believes that they have a free will ability, they believe that they can direct their own steps so as to avoid Satan's deceptions. Most of them believe that they too smart or too wise to ever fall for his deceptions. However, that is not what Christ says below:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Many of Christ's spiritual teachings include a time when a babe is under Satan's deceptions. Since it is God's "will" for it to be this way, no babe can avoid becoming apostate. It is just not possible.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

I programmed my computer to greet me every morning. It says, "Good morning, I love you", and I truly, "Thank you, I love you too". Is that real love on the part of the computer? Of course not. It's not only ridiculous to believe it could be, but even more ridiculous on my part to programme it in that manner at all.
So also, is out ridiculous to think that God has preprogrammed his people, people made in His own image, to love Him. That is not love. Love requires free will to be love. Your entire argument from beginning to end is flatter than last week's road kill.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I programmed my computer to greet me every morning. It says, "Good morning, I love you", and I truly, "Thank you, I love you too". Is that real love on the part of the computer? Of course not. It's not only ridiculous to believe it could be, but even more ridiculous on my part to programme it in that manner at all.
So also, is out ridiculous to think that God has preprogrammed his people, people made in His own image, to love Him. That is not love. Love requires free will to be love. Your entire argument from beginning to end is flatter than last week's road kill.

Dear Brakelite,
You don't understand how Christ works within a person. He does not force anyone love Him. What He does do is to change the person's heart and mind by giving them the Holy Spirit. After a person's heart and mind are changed, they will be able to see the love and goodness of God. Then, from that knowledge, they will freely love Him as they are loved.

Christ said this about loving God:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Can a person love God merely because God commands us to love Him? Isn't love more than a command? Of course, it is.

If you are married, do you love your wife?

Did she force you to love her or did you fall in love with her after you got to know her?

The same is true of God. Without the Holy Spirit, mankind has no ability to know God or to see His goodness. But after Christ gives a person the Holy Spirit, they will be able to truly see Him for the first time. After they do, they will willingly love Him. They will do nothing else. This is not a forced love (like a command). However, it is still certain to happen after Christ reveals Himself to them via the Holy Spirit.

Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it simply isn't possible for carnal mankind to know & love God. For this reason, Christ will spiritually change all of mankind so that they will.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This will happen not because it is a forced submission to Christ. It will happen because every person will love Christ with all their heart, mind and soul.

The book of Revelation is primarily about the spiritual steps that the Lord causes the Elect to travel to their moment of conversion/ salvation. That is why the book says that the Elect will keep the sayings of the prophecy (Rev 1:3 & 22:7). After an Elect person is converted, they will be able to truly see Christ for the first time. This is when Christ is "unveiled". The book is not about outward future world events as is commonly taught. Mankind thinks it is because they see Christ (the Word of God) through a carnal mind that cannot understand. Because mankind cannot understand, it is necessary for Christ to change us from within so that we can. This is the gift of salvation that He came to bring us.

Just because mankind does not direct their own steps, does not mean they are like computers. Far from it.

Joe

 

[Deleted member 26788]

No, the Kingdom of Heaven was preached by Jesus and is found in the early pages of Matthew. After it was pretty apparent that the Jews would not accept Jesus as the Mashiach Nagid thus Jesus stopped Preaching of this time....The Millennium was suddenly postponed for over 2000 years so far.

The Kingdom of God is in Heaven, not on earth.

yet Jesus said ''
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.''
ok sure we know God rules in heaven ,yet Jesus was pointing out that one day God would also rule the earth

 

[GodsGrace]

Truth is not mine or yours, but God’s. Jesus said it plainly, “Your word is truth.” (John 17: 17) What we say that lines up with Scripture in context is truth. What we say that doesn’t line up is error, no matter who is saying it.

Truth is not a matter of who’s “right” but what the Bible actually teaches. “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” (Romans 3: 4) So if you’re going to quote Scripture, be sure to include the context with it, for Satan quoted Scripture when he tempted Jesus. (Matthew 4: 6) The difference is that Jesus rightly handled the Word.

Truth is not whatever each person believes it to be. Truth stands because God said it is.

If there is only ONE truth...
Why do you believe in OSAS and I do not?

Apparently there is no truth
Or
You haven't yet determined how to know it
But follow your own road instead.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can see why you may have a certain opinion of my post. But just so you know you’re accusing me of something that I’m not guilty of.

You’re cherry-picking verses while denying the context of the passage and the rest of the Bible which interprets itself.

John 10: 28 — “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” That “eternal life” Christ gives is secure in His hand, not ours. That is exactly what I said — Jesus keeps His sheep. That is not me adding to the verse. That is what the rest of the passage teaches — “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (v. 29).

Hebrews 12: 6 speaks plainly that the Lord disciplines His children. Verse 7 goes on, “It is for discipline that you endure; God is treating you as sons.” (See my post below.) When I said that He “corrects” them and “brings them back,” that is precisely what the word discipline means — correction that restores. That is not me “adding,” that is me quoting Scripture in context accurately.

Matthew 7: 20 — “by their fruits you will know them” — is explained two verses later — “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father.” That is not an issue of me “adding” to a text. It is understanding that faith that is alive will produce obedience and false faith that is dead will produce hypocrisy.

As to John 15: 2, note the key phrase: “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.” “Takes away” (airo) in Greek also means “lifts up.” (airo) It is the same word Jesus used in John 11:41 when He said, “They took away the stone.” The vinedresser is lifting the branch up in order to make it bear fruit again. That is not me teaching loss of salvation, it is the Father caring for and pruning His own so that they may be more fruitful (v. 2b).

If you say true believers can be “cut off,” you are calling Jesus a liar in John 10:28 when He says, “They will never perish.” The Word does not contradict itself. The Bible defines believers as those sealed by the Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14), born again (John 3:3), and kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5).

Scripture does not have to be twisted to make a point, but it does have to be read all the way through. Cherry-picking is how false doctrines grow.

Excuse me.
What do your verses have to do with OSAS??

THIS was the topic of discussion.

If THEY WILL NEVER PERISH is how YOU understand it then Jesus contradicted Himself in John 15:1-2

You must have taken lessons from mailmandan....he also thinks taken away means lifted up.

Cute.

John 15 goes on to tell you what Taken Away means.

JESUS explains that it means gathered up and burned. Please see verse 5 or 6.

Yes sir.
You are correct that the Bible explains itself.

Or

Jesus was a really bad communicator.

 

[LoveYeshua]

yet Jesus said ''
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.''
ok sure we know God rules in heaven ,yet Jesus was pointing out that one day God would also rule the earth

On Jesus second advent, the book of revelations say there will be a kingdom on earth lasting 1000 years during which Satan will be bound, all this about the sequence of events for the kingdom can be found in the book of revelations chapter 20, 21.

 

[GodsGrace]

That’s the problem, though, a lot of folks simply don’t believe what they’re reading. They read the words, but they refuse to believe what God so plainly says.

Couldn't agree more.
perhaps, one day, you also will agree with what Jesus taught.

Jesus didn’t stutter when He declared, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10:28). Eternal means eternal, not temporary.

Luke 8:13
Jesus clearly states that BELIEVING can be temporary.

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Now that's Jesus speaking...
not me.

God will give eternal life to those that ENDURE. Ever read any verses on enduring till the end? Apparently you also don't like those verses.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we will also reign with him;


See, this is how it's done.
You post what you want to say.
Then you back it up with scripture.

No need to go on for paragraphs trying to explain it.

Jesus said it very well...He requires no help from us.
Ditto for Paul and the other writers.

The same Word also says believers are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”

Right.
Believers.
Alas, believers can become lost again.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

If we go on sinning willfully AFTER RECEIVING the knowledge of the truth....
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

(Ephesians 1: 13) and “kept by the power of God through faith” (1 Peter 1:5). If you believe a true child of God can lose salvation, then you are saying God’s seal can be broken and His promise can fail, which defies His very own Word.

I see.
So what you're really saying is that when we sin, we have God to blame since He was unable to "keep us".

Yes.
God's seal can be broken because it's what Jesus taught.

I tend to believe what Jesus stated plainly....

If you notice your very own verse states:
KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH.

If we do NOT have faith...we will not be kept by the power of God.
Do you think those that disobey God are keeping the faith?

No faith.
No salvation.

The problem is not whether the Bible says it, it does. The problem is whether we believe it as written or continue trying to twist it to fit our fears or pride.

Well David.
We must keep our fears and pride out of this matter and simply learn what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught that we are to obey Him or we can lose our salvation.

Matthew 7:26-27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."

1. Everyone who DOES NOT ACT on the words of Jesus is like the foolish man.
2. The rains fell and the house fell.

Again, this is Jesus speaking,
not me.

I’ve shared Scripture clearly and in context. At this point, it’s obvious we’re not dealing with a disagreement over verses, but with disbelief in what they plainly say. I’m not here to argue endlessly. The Bible stands on its own.

Yes sir.
The bible stands on its own.

Except that YOU are not properly listening to what Jesus has to say and instead are relying
on some phrases of Paul which are not easy to understand.

I hope you know that the first law of exegesis is that simple and plain text is always taken over obscure text.
Unfortunately Paul did not stop to explain each and every statement he made because he was aware that
THE JEWS would understand what he meant.

Some in our culture do not understand very well.

As Paul wrote, “Avoid foolish controversies… for they are unprofitable and worthless” (Titus 3:9). I’ll leave it there and put you on ignore.

Oh.
You put me on ignore?
Can't have an intelligent conversation?
You're back in your kindergarten days?

Fine with me.
I know it's difficult to deal with the truth.
Better to run from it.

But this is still worthwhile for those reading along that might be affected
by your heretical teaching.

Heretical, BTW, means teaching something that is not taught in mainline Christianity.
OSAS was NEVER part of the teaching of the church until the Reformation.

Do you believe every theologian before the Reformation was dumb?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Yes my friend but i was speaking of these John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The scripture is quite clear... it is possible to get saved and if they died they would have gone to Heaven.... but later they backslide and end up not going to heaven

Those that never perish return to the Lord if they backslide just like the prodigal son , those that don't return to the Lord do not spend eternity with Him even though they were truly born again at one point.

Those that accept the whole counsel of God know this to be true.

but in John’s wording, the ones who left were never saved to begin with.

That's not true when one accepts the whole counsel of God and quits cherry picking scripture to try and prove their preconceived ideas.

One of the tenant of false OSAS doctrine is to falsely claim "they never were saved to start with" which they must claim in their ongoing efforts to do all they can to protect their false doctrine which they must do out of their pride and arrogance as they could never admit they made a mistake in following false doctrine... so they continue working to keep the deception going.

Contrary to popular erroneous teaching . . . It's possible for one to get born again and then turn away from the Lord later and the Lord tells them "Depart from Me, I never knew you" even though they were legitimately born again at one point before falling away.

Just like when we get saved the Lord remembers our sin no more even though it's still on our record... the flip side is true where when one gets born again and then turns away from the Lord all the good they have done is no longer remembered (getting born again and turning away from out sin is a good work that we are called to see Ephesians 2:10 among others)

Here's one place where the Lord says the righteousness a parson had done (getting born again) will no longer be remembered.

Ezekiel 18:24 (YLT)
And in the turning back of the righteous from his righteousness, And he hath done perversity, According to all the abominations That the wicked hath done, he doth -- thus he liveth, All his righteousnesses that he hath done are not remembered, For his trespass that he hath trespassed, And for his sin that he hath sinned, For them he doth die.

Sure there are false conversions,. but to say all people that fall away from the Lord were never saved to begin with is simply not true,

In Mark 4:13-20 Jesus said that those that later fell away had originally received the Word with gladness. So Jesus is not saying they were never born again as some teach in error.

Since Jesus said they received the Word with gladness.... then, they received the Word with gladness! By not accepting the plain reading of scripture, many fall in to error.

Here's more scriptures that show some who were saved became corrupt later and ended up NOT being saved anymore.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

*This is clearly telling us these people were born again and then later they went back to the world

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

*Depart from the faith is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place.

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

*Those who separate themselves is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place.

 

[LoveYeshua]

The scripture is quite clear... it is possible to get saved and if they died they would have gone to Heaven.... but later they backslide and end up not going to heaven

Those that never perish return to the Lord if they backslide just like the prodigal son , those that don't return to the Lord do not spend eternity with Him even though they were truly born again at one point.

Those that accept the whole counsel of God know this to be true.




That's not true when one accepts the whole counsel of God and quits cherry picking scripture to try and prove their preconceived ideas.

One of the tenant of false OSAS doctrine is to falsely claim "they never were saved to start with" which they must claim in their ongoing efforts to do all they can to protect their false doctrine which they must do out of their pride and arrogance as they could never admit they made a mistake in following false doctrine... so they continue working to keep the deception going.

Contrary to popular erroneous teaching . . . It's possible for one to get born again and then turn away from the Lord later and the Lord tells them "Depart from Me, I never knew you" even though they were legitimately born again at one point before falling away.

Just like when we get saved the Lord remembers our sin no more even though it's still on our record... the flip side is true where when one gets born again and then turns away from the Lord all the good they have done is no longer remembered (getting born again and turning away from out sin is a good work that we are called to see Ephesians 2:10 among others)

Here's one place where the Lord says the righteousness a parson had done (getting born again) will no longer be remembered.

Ezekiel 18:24 (YLT)
And in the turning back of the righteous from his righteousness, And he hath done perversity, According to all the abominations That the wicked hath done, he doth -- thus he liveth, All his righteousnesses that he hath done are not remembered, For his trespass that he hath trespassed, And for his sin that he hath sinned, For them he doth die.

Sure there are false conversions,. but to say all people that fall away from the Lord were never saved to begin with is simply not true,

In Mark 4:13-20 Jesus said that those that later fell away had originally received the Word with gladness. So Jesus is not saying they were never born again as some teach in error.

Since Jesus said they received the Word with gladness.... then, they received the Word with gladness! By not accepting the plain reading of scripture, many fall in to error.

Here's more scriptures that show some who were saved became corrupt later and ended up NOT being saved anymore.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

*This is clearly telling us these people were born again and then later they went back to the world

1 Timothy 4:1,2
Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron

*Depart from the faith is not referring to sinners in the world who never came to faith in the first place.

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

*Those who separate themselves is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place.

I agree
Jesus often spoke of His followers as sheep who belong to Him, who hear His voice and follow where He leads. He said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” (John 10:27–29). These words show a deep promise of safety and love, but also a clear condition: His sheep are those who listen to Him and follow His word. They are not just believers in name, but those who live by His teachings and trust in His care.

Jesus called Himself the good Shepherd who gives His life for the sheep (John 10:11). This means that He laid down His life to save those who belong to Him, to lead them from darkness into light. The Father and the Son are one in this work of saving and keeping the faithful, but the promise of being safe in His hand belongs only to those who stay within His fold. The sheep who wander away do so by their own choice, not because the Shepherd failed to protect them.

When Jesus spoke of “the elect,” He was talking about the same faithful ones—the true sheep who endure to the end. He said, “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matthew 24:31). These elect are those who hold fast to the truth, love God, and remain loyal through trials. Jesus also warned, “Because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Matthew 24:12–13). This shows that being among the elect is not about being chosen at random, but about choosing to stay faithful and obedient to the Shepherd who called us.

Before His death, Jesus prayed for His disciples, saying, “While I was with them, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition” (John 17:12). This means that Jesus guards all whom the Father gives Him, yet one was lost by turning away. Judas shows that being called does not remove free will; a person must remain in the truth to stay under the Shepherd’s care.

After Jesus ascended, His disciples taught the same message. Peter wrote, “You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9). God’s chosen ones are those who live in His light. Peter also said, “Be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10), showing that election is something confirmed by how we live and obey. John wrote, “He who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him” (1 John 3:24), linking obedience to remaining in Christ.

From all this we understand that the sheep Jesus spoke of are indeed the elect of God—the ones who hear His voice, follow Him, and remain in His love. They are safe in His hands, not because they are forced to be, but because they freely choose to stay near their Shepherd and trust in His word. Their safety is not in themselves but in His power and truth. As Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32).

We have to remain faithful to the end, Blessings Friend.