Open discussion about UR - Chapter One

[St. SteVen]

I'll take a stab at responding to more of your interesting posted studies on the subject.
Thanks again for all your hard work. I'm a bit overwhelmed to answer every nuance presented.
But I will do what I am able. As inspired by your writing and thoughts.

Concurs with CHRIST's Prophetic Teaching To HIS people, Israel, on the earth!:

n) "And this {Everlasting!} gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in allthe world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."(Matthew 24:14 KJB)
WHAT? "the end"? the "restoration of the New Heaven and New earth"? Or:
As we ask: After "Israel's Final Correction," Then WHAT Does God Do at "This end"?:

o) Is it not This, In "What Saith The Scripture?":“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of allthings, Which God Hath Spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21 + OT prophecies)
This Prophetic "restitution For (earthly) Israel" cannot be the same as, and Must Be:

Yes. Working up to the End of Days. What does it mean to this UR supporter? (me)

As the Bible says, at some point the (everlasting?) gospel will reach the ends of the earth.
Which means it hasn't yet, confirmed by the fact that we are NOT at the End of Days.

The End of Days defined as the culmination of human life on this earth.
Before the NEW heavens and earth. (the restoration of all things)

It also indicates that a MASSIVE amount of time has passed when the gospel was NOT heard by everyone.
Leaving us with trillions of people who never heard, or were otherwise drawn to God by his Spirit.

From that perspective WHAT gospel could be considered "everlasting"?
- A gospel that only fits a certain denominational demographic? (us versus them)
- A gospel that only supports Protestantism?
- A gospel that only supports Catholicism?
- A gospel that supports BOTH Protestantism and Catholicism?
- A gospel centered on Israel?
It seems that we need a universal gospel. One size fits all.
Covering all the important bases, of course.

And because of the trillions that have never heard, a gospel that is effective without human decision.
Salvation that is provided based on something that is measurable beyond human meddling.

The finished work of the Atonement on our behalf fits the bill nicely. IMHO
- Provided for all of humankind
- Not specific to any religion, or religious sect
- Reaches back through the ages to solve the problem of sin
- Is independent of human approval or acceptance (initially, anyway)
- Is based on the ultimate expression of love and mercy
- Brings the story of humankind to a triumphant and positive conclusion

What does the standard understanding leave us with?
- Sectarian infighting (us versus them)
- A human institution full of corruption (the church)
- The use of fear to control "believers" (threat of hell, excommunication)
- No resolution to the sin problem
- A forever burning hell with no hope of escape for the condemned
- Sadistic eternal torture on the grandest scale imaginable ( the wide gate)
- A tragic end to the story of humankind

No thanks!

cc: @Charlie24 @Hillsage @Chadrho @stunnedbygrace @quietthinker @jeff saunders

 

[Charlie24]

I'll take a stab at responding to more of your interesting posted studies on the subject.
Thanks again for all your hard work. I'm a bit overwhelmed to answer every nuance presented.
But I will do what I am able. As inspired by your writing and thoughts.

Yes. Working up to the End of Days. What does it mean to this UR supporter? (me)

As the Bible says, at some point the (everlasting?) gospel will reach the ends of the earth.
Which means it hasn't yet, confirmed by the fact that we are NOT at the End of Days.

The End of Days defined as the culmination of human life on this earth.
Before the NEW heavens and earth. (the restoration of all things)

It also indicates that a MASSIVE amount of time has passed when the gospel was NOT heard by everyone.
Leaving us with trillions of people who never heard, or were otherwise drawn to God by his Spirit.

From that perspective WHAT gospel could be considered "everlasting"?
- A gospel that only fits a certain denominational demographic? (us versus them)
- A gospel that only supports Protestantism?
- A gospel that only supports Catholicism?
- A gospel that supports BOTH Protestantism and Catholicism?
- A gospel centered on Israel?
It seems that we need a universal gospel. One size fits all.
Covering all the important bases, of course.

And because of the trillions that have never heard, a gospel that is effective without human decision.
Salvation that is provided based on something that is measurable beyond human meddling.

The finished work of the Atonement on our behalf fits the bill nicely. IMHO
- Provided for all of humankind
- Not specific to any religion, or religious sect
- Reaches back through the ages to solve the problem of sin
- Is independent of human approval or acceptance (initially, anyway)
- Is based on the ultimate expression of love and mercy
- Brings the story of humankind to a triumphant and positive conclusion

What does the standard understanding leave us with?
- Sectarian infighting (us versus them)
- A human institution full of corruption (the church)
- The use of fear to control "believers" (threat of hell, excommunication)
- No resolution to the sin problem
- A forever burning hell with no hope of escape for the condemned
- Sadistic eternal torture on the grandest scale imaginable ( the wide gate)
- A tragic end to the story of humankind

No thanks!

cc: @Charlie24 @Hillsage @Chadrho @stunnedbygrace @quietthinker @jeff saunders

You tagged my name on this post, what do you want from me?

Clearly you are anti-church unless the UR is added. The wedge!!!!

 

[St. SteVen]

You tagged my name on this post, what do you want from me?

You were looking for some foundation for UR.
I laid it out pretty well here.
Although I think you wanted chapter and verse, since rational discussion is of little value to you.

Can you refute this? (from my post)

What does the standard understanding leave us with?
- Sectarian infighting (us versus them)
- A human institution full of corruption (the church)
- The use of fear to control "believers" (threat of hell, excommunication)
- No resolution to the sin problem
- A forever burning hell with no hope of escape for the condemned
- Sadistic eternal torture on the grandest scale imaginable ( the wide gate)
- A tragic end to the story of humankind

 

[Charlie24]

You were looking for some foundation for UR.
I laid it out pretty well here.
Although I think you wanted chapter and verse, since rational discussion is of little value to you.

Can you refute this? (from my post)

What does the standard understanding leave us with?
- Sectarian infighting (us versus them)
- A human institution full of corruption (the church)
- The use of fear to control "believers" (threat of hell, excommunication)
- No resolution to the sin problem
- A forever burning hell with no hope of escape for the condemned
- Sadistic eternal torture on the grandest scale imaginable ( the wide gate)
- A tragic end to the story of humankind

I'm a Bible worshiper! I think that's what you call us who take our doctrine from the Scripture.

I don't involve myself much in rational discussion, it tends to stray from my Bible worshiping.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm a Bible worshiper! I think that's what you call us who take our doctrine from the Scripture.

Nope.
A Bible worshiper makes an idol out of the book, worshiping the book rather than the author.
I hope you don't fit that definition. Not to my knowledge.

I don't involve myself much in rational discussion, it tends to stray from my Bible worshiping.

LOL
No critical thinking allowed? Or, no thinking at all?
A religion automaton? (do I need to define that?)

 

[St. SteVen]

The wedge!!!!

The wedge is of your creation. Don't blame me.
Build bridges, not walls.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Thanks again for all your hard work. I'm a bit overwhelmed to answer every nuance presented.

You are Very Welcome. Chapter One is your vehicle, so please, by all means, "close it out" as you see fit.

I will work on my finishing touches for Chapter Two.

 

[Charlie24]

Nope.
A Bible worshiper makes an idol out of the book, worshiping the book rather than the author.
I hope you don't fit that definition. Not to my knowledge.

LOL
No critical thinking allowed? Or, no thinking at all?
A religion automaton? (do I need to define that?)

I would appreciate an example and explanation of exactly what a "Bible worshiper" seems to be in your mind.

You say I'm not an example, who Is? I don't think they would mind being mentioned, and we can have an idea of you're talking about.

It wouldn't bother me at all if I were the example.

 

[St. SteVen]

I would appreciate an example and explanation of exactly what a "Bible worshiper" seems to be in your mind.

You say I'm not an example, who Is? I don't think they would mind being mentioned, and we can have an idea of you're talking about.

It wouldn't bother me at all if I were the example.

Good question, thanks.
I answered that question on the topic.
Here's what I wrote. See if it fits your situation.
(in your case we could add shunning other believers due to a difference in doctrinal opinion)

If a person's life is centered on the book instead of the author.

Symptoms include:
- Intense study with the goal of arguing others down in debate
- Establishing doctrinal positions that erect walls between other believers
- Challenging other believers to Bible versus Bible debates
- Claiming their personal opinion is from God
- Attempting to end the discussion, claiming the other's argument is with God

Any such behavior.

 

[Charlie24]

Good question, thanks.
I answered that question on the topic.
Here's what I wrote. See if it fits your situation.
(in your case we could add shunning other believers due to a difference in doctrinal opinion)

If a person's life is centered on the book instead of the author.

Symptoms include:
- Intense study with the goal of arguing others down in debate
- Establishing doctrinal positions that erect walls between other believers
- Challenging other believers to Bible versus Bible debates
- Claiming their personal opinion is from God
- Attempting to end the discussion, claiming the other's argument is with God

Any such behavior.

I find it amazing that all of these symptoms, as you call them, fall under the heading "Open discussion about UR."

So pointing that out, yes, the True Church will exhibit these "symptoms" when it concerns false doctrine.

Did Peter and Paul sit idle when they were presented that which has no Biblical foundation?

 

[St. SteVen]

I find it amazing that all of these symptoms, as you call them, fall under the heading "Open discussion about UR."

Seriously?
You introduced this discussion on the WRONG topic.
In my reply I wrote: "I answered that question on the topic."

So pointing that out, yes, the True Church will exhibit these "symptoms" when it concerns false doctrine.

Like:
- Intense study with the goal of arguing others down in debate
- Establishing doctrinal positions that erect walls between other believers
- Challenging other believers to Bible versus Bible debates
- Claiming their personal opinion is from God
- Attempting to end the discussion, claiming the other's argument is with God
- Shunning other believers due to a difference in doctrinal opinion
???????

Do you biblical support for these supposed "True Church" symptoms?

Did Peter and Paul sit idle when they were presented that which has no Biblical foundation?

I've been tolerant of your ignorance to this point. (sigh)
What Bible were they using? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The RCC didn't canonize the New Testament until the fourth century. FYI

Don't you know where our Bible came from?
Never mentioned the whole time you were in university?
Oh, wait... that's right, you slept through those classes.

 

[Charlie24]

Seriously?
You introduced this discussion on the WRONG topic.
In my reply I wrote: "I answered that question on the topic."

Like:
- Intense study with the goal of arguing others down in debate
- Establishing doctrinal positions that erect walls between other believers
- Challenging other believers to Bible versus Bible debates
- Claiming their personal opinion is from God
- Attempting to end the discussion, claiming the other's argument is with God
- Shunning other believers due to a difference in doctrinal opinion
???????

Do you biblical support for these supposed "True Church" symptoms?

I've been tolerant of your ignorance to this point. (sigh)
What Bible were they using? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The RCC didn't canonize the New Testament until the fourth century. FYI

Don't you know where our Bible came from?
Never mentioned the whole time you were in university?
Oh, wait... that's right, you slept through those classes.

Good morning Steven! Your dream is about to come true!

I'm starting a new thread sometime this morning in the "General Discussion" forum.

"Post your favorite UR verse for inspection" (kinda catchy ain't it)

You are invited Brother! Just post the verse you like and I will run it through the Scripture to see if it holds water concerning the universal salvation of mankind.

 

[Patrick1966]

Although I think you wanted chapter and verse, since rational discussion is of little value to you.

Many Christians have been deceived and essentially brainwashed with the false doctrine of a forever "Hell". Even when shown scripture, many "annihilationists" become triggered and deny everything they're shown. I had a guy recently tell me that he doesn't accept any Bible verses except for "the original, the King James version". I let him know, nicely, that the ORIGINAL scriptures that came from Paul were written in GREEK and that his KJV is a translated and sometimes erroneously translated version of the original Greek scriptures.

Once you've shared the original, correctly translated scriptures with them, if they continue to reject it, then I recommend just letting it go. If they believe that some people will go to "Hell" forever, then so be it. It's not as if they don't believe in Jesus at all and there are MANY of those!

 

[Charlie24]

Good morning Steven! Your dream is about to come true!

I'm starting a new thread sometime this morning in the "General Discussion" forum.

"Post your favorite UR verse for inspection" (kinda catchy ain't it)

You are invited Brother! Just post the verse you like and I will run it through the Scripture to see if it holds water concerning the universal salvation of mankind.

@Patrick1966

I'm happy to see you like this, Brother! I hope to clarify some things, well, many things on these UR verses.

I think we hi-jacked the the thread we were on, so I decided to start a thread for all UR folks to post their verses and why they believe it supports the universal salvation of mankind, and I will respond.

Hope to have some good dialogue with you, Brother!

 

[Patrick1966]

I think we hi-jacked the the thread we were on...

 

[Patrick1966]

Hope to have some good dialogue with you, Brother!

Sure Charlie but can you link to it because I can't find it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Sure Charlie but can you link to it because I can't find it.

Post your favorite UR verse for inspection

I'm starting this thread in order to respond from the Scripture on the UR verses that are believed to be support for the universal salvation of mankind. Just post the verse and comment on why you believe it supports the UR. I will be happy to respond. I'm looking for a respectful conversation...

www.christianityboard.com

cc; @Charlie24