Not true, my friend! If they get out as you insist, there most definitely is a second chance!
This is the nonsense we have to endure with you guys. (sorry)
Open discussion about UR - Chapter One
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Not true, my friend! If they get out as you insist, there most definitely is a second chance!
This is the nonsense we have to endure with you guys. (sorry)
Get out? Get out of what? Restoration?
Everyone is going. Hope you don't think you are exempt. (Mark 9:49)
It may be a long stay for religious folk.
Matthew 21:31 NIV
"... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."
This came to mind.
1 Corinthians 1:18 NIV
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I should address this from another angle.
If there was a "second chance", would ANYONE not take it? "... if they get out..."
This is the nonsense we have to endure with you guys. (sorry) - LOL
If there is a hell, it certainly doesn't have to be eternal to get the message across.
Give anyone ten seconds in hell as described by the church, and then ask them if they want to repent, or return to hell.
How many per million might want to go back? To endless incineration with no hope of escape.
It sickens me that anyone would claim God would do such a thing. How can it be? Nope.
I would rather be a Universalist and be wrong, than a Damnationist and be right. (sorry)
So now we're all going to have time in Hell? Sometimes I wonder if you guys have ever seen a Bible, let alone read it.
You could settle all of this by simply showing us in Scripture where they get out.
Plainly the Scripture places them in the Lake of Fire, plainly show us where they get out!
Communication is difficult when definitions conflict.
I don't believe there is a hell at all. (as you define it)
As you define it, I believe no one is going.
As I define it, in order to have a meaningful discussion with you, everyone is going.
Make sense? (of course not) - LOL
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Paul is speaking to the saved! Their faith in the finished work of Christ will save them, even though their works will not be accepted by God.
In other words, works that are done for the wrong reasons.
They will be saved by faith, DESPITE THE FLAMES BURNING UP THEIR WORKS!
We are in agreement on these points. However...
Will those that you call "lost" not ALSO have a judgment of works?
Why would their judgement be any different? NOTICE VERSE SIXTEEN.
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Paul is referring to the Gentiles who existed before the Law was given. He is saying that though they had no Law given, they are not absent of light, that being the conscience bearing right and wrong.
God will judge man according to the light they received, the more light given, the stiffer the judgement.
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Even before my foray into UR, I didn't believe that.
I even emphasized this. "NOTICE VERSE SIXTEEN."
Are you claiming that ALL humankind do not have a God-given conscience?
That only those BEFORE the law was given had a conscience?
What about these folks? Before, or after, the law was given?
1 Timothy 4:2 NIV
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
What happened to the PASS/FAIL judgement of NO second chances?
Now you are grading on a curve? Wow.
Doctrine in the dumpster. Unbelievable.
Don't stop posting now. I'm going to have a field day with this. - LOL
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
No way! I don't buy that at all.
Even before my foray into UR, I didn't believe that.
I even emphasized this. "NOTICE VERSE SIXTEEN."
Are you claiming that ALL humankind do not have a God-given conscience?
That only those BEFORE the law was given had a conscience?
What about these folks? Before, or after, the law was given?
1 Timothy 4:2 NIV
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
Now you really stepped in it. Off your game today, or what?
What happened to the PASS/FAIL judgement of NO second chances?
Now you are grading on a curve? Wow.
Doctrine in the dumpster. Unbelievable.
Don't stop posting now. I'm going to have a field day with this. - LOL
I have no idea how you came up with that. Of course all men have a conscience, and of course any man who ignores sin long enough will sear his conscience.
But all men did not have the Law of God!
You said that scripture referred to a time before the law. Maybe I misunderstood?
Nevertheless...
Romans 7:7 NIV
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Those Gentiles that had no Law, did not have this knowledge. The only light most of them had was the conscience.
But some came in contact with the Sacrifice that God had provided for man in the Garden, from the very beginning. I suppose it was after the Tower of Babel, when the languages separated man that the Gentile came into the picture. So when the Law came to the Hebrews the Gentiles did not have this light.
Thanks for your response. Amazing claims here. (seat belts on?)
Light? From the law? (I don't think so)
1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
What sacrifice did God provide for humankind in the Garden?
There are Jews and Gentiles. (thus dividing the entire planet)
I suppose everyone was technically a gentile before Judaism. Which began... ???
The law was darkness like we had NEVER seen. IMHO
Were the Ten Commandments engraved in letters on stone? If so, here's what the Apostle has to say about them.
The transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now. Light? - LOL
2 Corinthians 3:7-11 NIV
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Law? Which law?
Light? From the law? (I don't think so)
1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
Say what? This sounds like Twilight Zone stuff. And you thought UR was weird?
What sacrifice did God provide for humankind in the Garden?
Wow. Seriously?
There are Jews and Gentiles. (thus dividing the entire planet)
I suppose everyone was technically a gentile before Judaism. Which began... ???
This light?
The law was darkness like we had NEVER seen. IMHO
Were the Ten Commandments engraved in letters on stone? If so, here's what the Apostle has to say about them.
The transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now. Light? - LOL
2 Corinthians 3:7-11 NIV
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
When Adam and Eve fell in the Garden due to their sin, they then realized they were naked. God provided a covering for them with animal skins. Those animals sacrificed their lives for that covering, which is the first sacrifice recorded in Scripture. It was a type of Christ that would be sacrificed for the sins of man.
The sacrifice is seen again with Cain and Abel. If you remember, Cain brought a sacrifice from the field (vegetables) and was rejected, but Abel brought an animal sacrifice before God and was accepted. Here again Christ is represented in type as the sacrifice for the sins of man.
It continues to appear with Abraham and so on, all the way to the Law of Moses given in the wilderness. But ended when the type became reality at Calvary.
Back to my point, some Gentiles came in contact with the offering of these sacrifices, and some were saved believing in that sacrifice that represented Christ.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I believe we are all entitled to 'our opinions' here. But when 'your opinion' is all that's offered as 'proof' to support your opinion....has anything really even been supported...let alone 'proven'? In my opinion I'd say NO!
So let me give you 2 biblical reasons for ME to JUDGE not only "the world" but God.
1CO 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!
I believe a correct judgment 'concerning God' by me is even biblical.
1CO 2:15 The spiritual man judges ALL THINGS, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
So, there's my reason for JUDGING GOD according to scripture. And I believe my judgment of God lines up with the theology of the first 500 years of the church. I don't believe God is maligned by my judgment at all. I think that the judgment of the modern church standing on the doctrine of 'eternal hell', which came from the the ancient apostate Church of Rome is the most dangerous judgment a believer can have today. Granted, that is just my opinion, but the following is not.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage [the Latin church of northern Africa] or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Chapter One Finale - a Pre-Cursor to my Chapter Two Final Exam?
Part 1
cc: @St. SteVen: The crux of This Important Matter was lost in the shuffle? For
some time I thought so, but No (must be my OLD age), I finally found it, and
►►► Now/Today ◄◄◄ - the E-X-P-A-N-D-E-D version:
Must be VERY Important [ in triplicate ] on 'biblehub,' eh?:
NIV: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it
is good or evil. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden
thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
Sounds like (unusual?) version agreement to me...
Reminded me of Jesus' (Authority? of) TRIPLE Emphases in Mark 9:43-48 (Judgment?)
Anyways, yes, I believe this Important Scripture, but what are the possibilities of
the interpretation thereof?:
1) ur: One General Judgment, God Correcting ALL AT the Final restoration of ALL things?
(haven't found Scriptures yet, but like our new friend @Hillsage [10-yr study] 20 for slow me?)
2) EJ: The Final (Great White Throne) Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) (Ch 2 post #21)
3) EJ: Christ's Judgment of the "sheep Separated from the goats of ALL nations"
"Separated from the rebels," and "they Shall know (ur "confess"?) He Is The LORD?
5) And in the previous discussion 'link' for: The Judgment Seat Of Christ * (1Co 3:8-15),
Confirmed By:
hmmm, wouldn't you know it = I talk too much? > 10,000 characters? to be continued...
Part 1
cc: @St. SteVen: The crux of This Important Matter was lost in the shuffle? For
some time I thought so, but No (must be my OLD age), I finally found it, and
►►► Now/Today ◄◄◄ - the E-X-P-A-N-D-E-D version:
“For God Shall Bring every work into Judgment, with every secret
thing, whether [ it be ] good, or whether [ it be ] evil.” (Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJV)
Must be VERY Important [ in triplicate ] on 'biblehub,' eh?:
NIV: "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it
is good or evil. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil. For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden
thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
Sounds like (unusual?) version agreement to me...
Reminded me of Jesus' (Authority? of) TRIPLE Emphases in Mark 9:43-48 (Judgment?)
Anyways, yes, I believe this Important Scripture, but what are the possibilities of
the interpretation thereof?:
1) ur: One General Judgment, God Correcting ALL AT the Final restoration of ALL things?
(haven't found Scriptures yet, but like our new friend @Hillsage [10-yr study] 20 for slow me?)
or: Specific Judgments before the "restoration/New Heaven & New earth"? - ie:
2) EJ: The Final (Great White Throne) Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) (Ch 2 post #21)
3) EJ: Christ's Judgment of the "sheep Separated from the goats of ALL nations"
for Qualification to "enter the kingdom" or "Depart from Christ Into Everlasting
Punishment" (Matthew 25:31-46)?
4) ??: Israel in the wilderness Judgment (Ezekiel 20:34-38), where the believers are"Separated from the rebels," and "they Shall know (ur "confess"?) He Is The LORD?
5) And in the previous discussion 'link' for: The Judgment Seat Of Christ * (1Co 3:8-15),
I still don't see this Specific Judgment fitting the ur scenario, because:
a) Paul Never addressed God's Words Of The LORD Jesus Christ TO UNbelievers, so:
b) Paul's "we Shall ALL stand before The Judgment Seat Of Christ," Was addressed to:
c) ALL the saints, Under Grace, ► 'Today,' ◄ In (The Body Of) Christ, which "Body" btw:
d) Was Never known (but assumed and presupposed? to be) in prophecy, and Never spoken
of by the Twelve kingdom apostles, nor written about in any of their letters addressed to
the Twelve tribes Of [ earthly ] Israel (see James 1:1), because:
e) The "Body" Was Revealed, By Christ [ From Heaven ], to Paul in
"The Revelation Of The Mystery" (Romans - Philemon), As:
f) [ God's Creation Of ] "The ONE New man" (Not 'bride') in Ephesians 2:15, with:
g) God Changing Dispensations From Law Over To GRACE (we already knew that?), and:
h) Saul [ God's Worst (shoulda been Judged?) enemy, But ] Being Saved By God's Pure
Grace And Mercy, As THE Very First "member [ Paul ]" of Said "Body Of Christ":
“Therefore IF any man [ Paul? be ] in Christ, [ he There Is ] a New Creature
[Creation!]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become New."
Confirmed By:
"...I [ Paul ] Obtained Mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And
The Grace of our LORD Was Exceeding Abundant with faith and Love
Which is in Christ Jesus.
This is A Faithful Saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ
Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me First Jesus Christ
might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should
hereafter believe on Him to Life Everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:13-16)
And in the crux of This Important Matter, the question is WHEN Is "this BELIEF" Effective?hmmm, wouldn't you know it = I talk too much? > 10,000 characters? to be continued...
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GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Part 2
cc: @St. SteVen:
5) And in the previous discussion 'link' for: The Judgment Seat Of Christ * (1Co 3:8-15),
And in the crux of This Important Matter, the question is WHEN Is "this BELIEF" Effective?
ur: until the Very LAST day (hereafter) [ of 'restoration' ]?
Thus, as our precious friends keep pointing out to us, the ( everlasting? )
'hereafter' may have "an ending time," and:
Since The Gospel Of Grace [ In God's Mystery Program For ► Today ◄ Only ] will
No Longer Be Effective, and we ALL [ diligent students ] really should do a study:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online) **
Concurs with CHRIST's Prophetic Teaching To HIS people, Israel, on the earth!:
WHAT? "the end"? the "restoration of the New Heaven and New earth"? Or:
As we ask: After "Israel's Final Correction," Then WHAT Does God Do at "This end"?:
This Prophetic "restitution For (earthly) Israel" cannot be the same as, and Must Be:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online) **
(question(s)? Probably a bazillion or more, eh?
► Today? Now ◄ I know my abc's? ♫
↑
---------------------
* (our Judgment & Beyond In The Mystery #'s 6 & 7 In):
continue with the pre-supposition (?) that These "are the same"? How is that
"Approval Unto God" (2 Timothy 2:15)?
---------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
Chapter Two Final Exam, forthcoming sooner or later?...
cc: @St. SteVen:
5) And in the previous discussion 'link' for: The Judgment Seat Of Christ * (1Co 3:8-15),
I still don't see this Specific Judgment fitting the ur scenario, because... - continued:
..."Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, that in me First Jesus Christ
might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should
hereafter believe on Him to Life Everlasting." (1 Timothy 1:13-16)
And in the crux of This Important Matter, the question is WHEN Is "this BELIEF" Effective?
ur: until the Very LAST day (hereafter) [ of 'restoration' ]?
i1) WHAT Saith The Scripture, From Christ TO Paul, And TO "The Body Of Christ"?:
"We then, as workers together with Him, beseech you also that ye receive
not The Grace of God in vain. ( For He Saith, I have heard thee in A Time
Accepted, and In The Day of Salvation Have I Succoured [ Helped ] thee:
behold, ► NOW ◄ Is The Accepted Time; behold, ► NOW ◄ Is The Day
Of Salvation. ) (2 Corinthians 6:1-2)
+i2) Writer Of God's Word TO Israel (The 'Hebrews')?:
"Wherefore (as The Holy Ghost Saith, ► To day ◄ if ye will hear His Voice"
(Hebrews 3:7)
Thus, as our precious friends keep pointing out to us, the ( everlasting? )
'hereafter' may have "an ending time," and:
j) In this Specific Case of ► Today's ◄ Gospel Of The Grace Of God, it does, because:
k) The Current Dispensation of The Grace Of God Ends at our Great Grace
Departure to Heaven ( God Removing ALL His ambassadors In Christ ), and:
Since The Gospel Of Grace [ In God's Mystery Program For ► Today ◄ Only ] will
No Longer Be Effective, and we ALL [ diligent students ] really should do a study:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online) **
l) God Will Resume His (Currently On HOLD) Prophetic program, Declaring War, Wrath,
and Judgment, THE Prophesied Great Tribulation (Israel's Final Correction!), on an
UNbelieving world, the ONLY hope (consistent with That Program), Then Being:
m) Not "taking the mark of [ worshipping ] the beast," But, believing the { Everlasting }
gospel of the kingdom [ worshipping The LORD Jesus Christ ], preached by 144,000
"sealed" Jews, Two Powerful witnesses, and an angel (Revelation 14:6 KJB), Which, btw:
Concurs with CHRIST's Prophetic Teaching To HIS people, Israel, on the earth!:
n) "And this {Everlasting!} gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all
the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
(Matthew 24:14 KJB)
WHAT? "the end"? the "restoration of the New Heaven and New earth"? Or:
As we ask: After "Israel's Final Correction," Then WHAT Does God Do at "This end"?:
o) Is it not This, In "What Saith The Scripture?":
“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all
things, Which God Hath Spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets
since the world began." (Acts 3:21 + OT prophecies)
This Prophetic "restitution For (earthly) Israel" cannot be the same as, and Must Be:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online) **
p) Paul's Final Restoration, in the ( Heavenly ) Revelation Of The Mystery, Which
Was "Hid In God From The Foundation of the world" (Ephesians 3:9):
"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one
all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:"
(question(s)? Probably a bazillion or more, eh?
r) Reminder, we are ALL at different "stages of growth" In The LORD's (wisdom and
understanding of) Sound Doctrines, so, Thanks for your patience and understanding.
s) @St. Steven, you're still staying strong in:
t) This Great Discussion? I wouldn't have it any other way...
u) ur can't be developed without Great Difficulty, From Scripture?
v) Victory In The LORD Jesus Christ! Amen?
w) Winding This Great Discussion down, heading toward the Final Exam?
x) x-ray vision would be fantasy, right?
y) don't you know?:
z) Zebras are pretty cool creations Of The Almighty, Amen?
► Today? Now ◄ I know my abc's? ♫
↑---------------------
* (our Judgment & Beyond In The Mystery #'s 6 & 7 In):
** "Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY - mind-boggling how Many continue with the pre-supposition (?) that These "are the same"? How is that
"Approval Unto God" (2 Timothy 2:15)?
---------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
Chapter Two Final Exam, forthcoming sooner or later?...
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Wow. Very impressive work. Much appreciated. Thanks.
Not sure how all the judgments fit together on the UR view.
As I understand it, there will be a whole age dedicated to the events that need to take place.
Nations will be judged, their leaders too, of course. Individuals will be judged as well.
Even churches, perhaps. And their leaders too. All the way down to teachers.
The order of events is not clear to me. I assume that since everything will be laid bare and
exposed for what it is, that EVERYONE will be in attendance to witness the goings-on.
A great cloud of witnesses is already watching us.
With that in consideration, what questions come to mind?
The Atonement sealed the deal. It is finished, PAID in FULL for ALL of humankind.
So, effective since then, and before. The "Harrowing of Hell" took care of that.
Yes. And I think that will be taken into account. Now and then.
Yes, this true. As I may have written earlier, those who gave us our Bible were Damnationists. Their bias is ALL over the book.
We are fortunate to have ANYTHING to work from. But, I think we have plenty. If we have sausage, there must be a meat grinder somewhere. - LOL (terrible analogy, I know)
LOL -- So glad you haven't lost your sense of humor.
AMEN and AMEN!
LOL - Indeed.► Today? Now ◄ I know my abc's? ♫
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