Open Discussion of UR Chapter Two

[GRACE ambassador]

cc: @St. SteVen - Part 2 The Final Judgment

Q: Is not The LORD Jesus Christ [Literally] The God, And Righteous Judge Of

This Final Judgment?:​

"And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him That Sat On It, from Whose​

Face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place​

for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before...​

...God (The LORD Jesus); and the books were opened: and another book was​

opened, Which Is [ The Book ] Of Life: and the dead were Judged out of those​

things which were written in the books, according to their works...​

...And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered​

up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every man according​

to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is The​

Second Death. And whosoever was NOT found Written In The Book Of Life​

Was Cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15 KJB)​

Confirmed By?:

"And these [ UNrighteous? ] shall go away into everlasting ​

punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)​

"Then shall He Say also unto them on the left hand, Depart From Me, ​

ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"​

(Matthew 25:41 cp Matthew 7:21-23)​

+
Your Concurrence?:

Revelation 14:11 KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It seems to me (but, Again, I Could be mistaken?), that for the ur view 'to be true,'
they Must keep Insisting (for the above) = "No, not true," because:

"Everyone will be judged/corrected/repentant/restored."?

Ok, then, I must insist on more questions, as it appears we may have a lot of unpacking to
do? Is there Really 'a restoration of ALL' after Christ Says Those Horrible-Sounding Words
"Depart From Me"? Would not 'restoration' Say "STAY With Me"?

v11: WHY does God Call This Judgment "The Great White Throne"? And HOW is it possibly
the Exact same [final?] Judgment as "The Judgment Seat Of Christ," we Examined in post #5,
with:

VASTLY Different results (1 Corinthians 3:15 Saved cp Revelation 20:14 Second Death)?​

v12: WHY are these Called "the dead" and "Judged out of the books," while...
-----------------------------
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

...those In Christ ("made alive") and appear At The Judgment Seat had no books opened,
but (Christ Handing them their "works of 'gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and
stubble'") did they walk through a fire, or stand in front of The Fiery Gaze of Christ?
(see Revelation 1:14 "His Eyes Were As A Flame Of Fire"), for this?

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day shall declare it, because it ​

shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."​

(1 Corinthians 3:13 KJV)​

-------------------
v13: What? Another Confirmation that these being Judged Here are still "dead"?

a) the sea gave up the 'dead' bodies buried therein?​

​

b) death (bodies in the ground?) and hell (tormented souls?) delivered up​

the 'dead' in them?​

​

c) Seems to me like the souls and bodies are 'Re-united' (IF I​

understand 'resurrection' correctly) in the "resurrection of damnation"?​

d) Direct opposites, are they not? Those Made Alive In Christ, and those​

outside of Christ are "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1, 5)?​

v14: Does the 'restoration' take place before this verse?

Or:

v15: Is the 'correction (in the [temporary?] lake of fire)'/restoration after This Passage?:

"And whosoever was NOT found Written In The Book Of Life​

Was Cast into the lake of fire."​

​

And (Adding To Scripture [Forbidden?]), "ALL are corrected/taken (resurrected again?) out of
the lake of fire, and then restored Unto Eternal Life"? Do not see HOW that is possible, In
Light Of God's Words, After the 'restoration' of The New heaven and New earth (Rev 21:1):

"And He That Sat upon the throne said, Behold, I Make ALL things new. And He ​

Said Unto me, Write: for These Words Are True and Faithful." (Revelation 21:5)​

+

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever ​

worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which Are Written in the Lamb's ​

Book Of Life." (Revelation 21:27)​

+

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy ​

still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let ​

him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)​

+
WHAT? “names Blotted out of The Book Of Life" = Eternal Condemnation?
(Exodus 32:32; Psalm 69:28; Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 20:15; 22:19; Philippians 4:3)

OR:
names Blotted out (but after restoration) are "RE-written Back Into" God's Book Of Life?
Scriptures please?
---------------------------------------------------
Conclusion? to be continued, after Prayerful/Careful meditation/assimilation of ALL of this
important information. ( "Baptism" took a few months..."Pre-trib rapture" took 18 months... )

So, (me, being a Very S-L-O-W student) who knows?...Thanks In Advance @St. SteVen,
for your Final (kind, courteous, thoughtful, and Awesome?) rebuttal, in case either of us
"left Any Very Important Information out" Of ALL Scripture Which Is Profitable for
[Sound] Doctrine...

Amen?

 

[St. SteVen]

The scripture for review:

"And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, LORD God Almighty, True
and Righteous are Thy Judgments. And the fourth angel poured out his vial
upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed The Name of God,
Which hath power over these plagues: and they repented Not to give Him
glory. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and
his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

And blasphemed The God of heaven because of their pains and their sores,
and repented not of their deeds." (Revelation 16:7-11)

1) This is not The Unforgivable sin Of Blaspheming The Holy Spirit, is it? If so, then
ur is saying "At Judgment (correction?), ALL will, by The Spirit, "confess 'Jesus is LORD'
and be saved," does not make sense.

No. Not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as I understand it.
Though my position on that is not the standard apologetic.
Which I won't address in this post.

I'm not an expert, or even well-studied on the texts in Revelation.
But I take the situation described as part of the GREAT Tribulation.
And therefore near the end of human existence on this planet.
So, it is not a description of events in the afterlife proceeding the end times here.

Therefore, this is NOT the event that leads to EVERY knee and EVERY tongue... IMHO

2) IF they being scorched with heat here on earth in this life (Correction?), blaspheming God,
and not repenting/being saved in this life, why would they "change their mind" in the resurrection of damnation and not be "cast into the lake of 'everlasting torment is fire and
brimstone.'

Great question. Thanks.

I would say the two situations (this Tribulation event and the correction in the afterlife),
though appearing to be similar (in some respects) on the surface, are not the same at all.

In the Tribulation, reportedly, torment is pouring forth from above. (from an unseen hand?)
The correction and restoration in the afterlife will be a face-to-face encounter with unbridled LOVE.

Furthermore, the "fire" in the afterlife is burning away the "dross" for purification.
Like a refinery for gold, the precious metal is preserved and improved.

3) I only see, after death, that ALL (those Outside of Christ) will acknowledge (confess) to God,
But, have yet to find anyone Judged (Corrected?) "repenting (as not above), and having faith"
to be saved (a Second chance?), in the afterlife.

Reading your post above I get a mental picture of a tangled mess of wires. - LOL
Where do I begin...

Presuppositions have led you to a conclusion. Mine have done the same.
But we ended up at different locations. How can this be?

We both read that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, that all will be saved,
that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess, on earth, in heaven and under the earth,
that in Adam all died and in Christ ALL will be made alive.

It seems that I take these things at face value, but you do not. Why?

The common response to that question is that my view doesn't agree with "the WHOLE context of scripture."
Those pesky presuppositions again. As if, my scriptures CAN'T mean what they PLAINLY say. (sigh)

I hope I am answering your questions. Thanks for providing them, my friend.

This has been a really good discussion. Hopefully you are learning to better understand UR.
I am your humble servant in that regard.

 

[St. SteVen]

v15: Is the 'correction (in the [temporary?] lake of fire)'/restoration after This Passage?:

"And whosoever was NOT found Written In The Book Of LifeWas Cast into the lake of fire."

To be honest, this is a piece to the puzzle I have not found a place for.
It obviously supports Damnationism, but does not support Universalism.
What to do, what to do... ???

And (Adding To Scripture [Forbidden?]), "ALL are corrected/taken (resurrected again?) out of
the lake of fire, and then restored Unto Eternal Life"? Do not see HOW that is possible, In
Light Of God's Words, After the 'restoration' of The New heaven and New earth (Rev 21:1):

All will face judgement, together in the age of correction, as I see it.
What is the point of laying bare every secret thing if not in some sort of "public" setting?

As I understand it, everyone will be in the realm of the dead prior to the BIG event, the Age of Ages.
Jesus talked about a divided realm (the chasm) in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
The reason given being a doctrinal issue; another puzzle to solve.

"And He That Sat upon the throne said, Behold, I Make ALL things new. And He Said Unto me, Write: for These Words Are True and Faithful." (Revelation 21:5)+
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which Are Written in the Lamb's Book Of Life." (Revelation 21:27)+
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)

YES! - "Behold, I Make ALL things new."
As apposed to Behold, I Make some things new.

WHAT? “names Blotted out of The Book Of Life" = Eternal Condemnation?
(Exodus 32:32; Psalm 69:28; Revelation 3:5, 13:8, 20:15; 22:19; Philippians 4:3)

OR:
names Blotted out (but after restoration) are "RE-written Back Into" God's Book Of Life?
Scriptures please?

Yes, rewritten perhaps. ???
But what is the purpose of the books? (more than one)
And what are the other books for?
At what point do those books no longer matter?
When have they served their purpose and need to be closed?

Conclusion? to be continued, after Prayerful/Careful meditation/assimilation of ALL of this
important information. ( "Baptism" took a few months..."Pre-trib rapture" took 18 months... )

You are a real trooper. Thanks for hanging in there. Most believers would have blown me off by now.
I find you to be a cut way above the common forum poster. (for lack of a better term)
So, kudos.

So, (me, being a Very S-L-O-W student) who knows?...Thanks In Advance @St. SteVen,
for your Final (kind, courteous, thoughtful, and Awesome?) rebuttal, in case either of us
"left Any Very Important Information out" Of ALL Scripture Which Is Profitable for
[Sound] Doctrine...

This rabbit hopes to see the turtle win the race. - LOL
(The Tortoise and the Hare)

Amen?

AMEN
Have a blessed Lord's Day.

 

[St. SteVen]

law? I apologize, I could find no hints of everlasting condemnation in Moses' law...

And for good reason. IMHO
Hell (everlasting condemnation) was an invention of the western/Latin church, which provided us with our canon of scripture. (one of several)

This effort being greatly influenced by Augustinian theology which colored (biased) the translation work to promote Damnationism.

The OT books (the Law and the Prophets and Psalms) were already in final form, being provided to us by Judaism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Off-topic observation...
Interesting comparative to Matthew 5:17 below:
(describing the OT as I have above - "in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms")

Matthew 5:17 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Luke 24:44 KJV
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I hope I am answering your questions. Thanks for providing them, my friend.

This has been a really good discussion. Hopefully you are learning to better understand UR.
I am your humble servant in that regard.

You're welcome, precious friend, appreciate your humility. Don't see too much of that around

Reading your post above I get a mental picture of a tangled mess of wires. - LOL
Where do I begin...

Presuppositions have led you to a conclusion.

I apologize for the "mangled mess of wires" question, Striving to improve questioning skills?:

Trying to better understand ur - do I do that, as you say:

It seems that I take these things at face value, but you do not. Why?

I thought [mistakenly?] that I was doing the same, but let me ask about some of your ur partners - are you in 95% agreement with them?:

K DeRose:
“Contrary to what many would suppose, universalism...receives strong scriptural support in the New Testament. Indeed, I judge the support strong enough that if I had to choose between universalism and anti-universalism as the “position of Scripture,” I’d pick: universalism as the fairly clear winner.”

On a Plain 'face value' reading Of God's Truth, Or?:

K Roberts’ old adage caveat:
“If you conclude [I might do this, and you would respect that?] that the judgment passages outweigh the universalist passages, and if you need to retain the doctrine of double judgment on the basis of a literal, “straightforward” reading of Scripture, the old adage follows: be careful what you wish for!”

Wait! Obeying The Bible, 'with a straightforward reading,' and wishing for something are the same thing?

+

J Moltmann’s “The Coming Of God” = “Universal salvation and a double outcome of judgment are therefore both well attested biblically. So

the decision for the one or the other CANNOT be made on the ground of ‘scripture’.”

Did he mean "But" instead of "So"?

So, God Has 'some Other Way' for me to make 'my Important decision' for

His Sound Doctrine?​

Cornfused [mangled mess?] again...

Turtle back to his homework...

 

[St. SteVen]

I thought [mistakenly?] that I was doing the same, but let me ask about some of your ur partners - are you in 95% agreement with them?:

Good to hear from you again, friend.

Unlike well-established denominations, UR has no inflexible tenets. This is both bad and good.
And it may be one of the things that attracts me about it, in a minor way.

Part of the reason for this is the Bible we have is a victim of Damnationist bias.
Which makes me wonder why we have ANYTHING biblical to base our views on.

Most don't realize how difficult it is to make a biblical case for UR at all.
Frankly, I depend on the Holy Spirit to reach those who are ready for it and bring them along in His good time.
I won't rush anyone to join the team. But we are hiring! - LOL (apply within)

K DeRose:
“Contrary to what many would suppose, universalism...receives strong scriptural support in the New Testament. Indeed, I judge the support strong enough that if I had to choose between universalism and anti-universalism as the “position of Scripture,” I’d pick: universalism as the fairly clear winner.”

As expected, I track with that just fine. Thanks.

On a Plain 'face value' reading Of God's Truth, Or?:

Careful... that sounds a lot like playing the "God card" to end all discussion.
I know you wouldn't do that to me.

Honestly, how could anyone respond to such a question?
As if the poster's personal opinion is SOMEHOW "God's Truth"?
A view so blatantly suffering from a religious myopia. (Grr...)

Sorry, that sort of thing gets me pretty worked up. I still love you.

K Roberts’ old adage caveat:
“If you conclude [I might do this, and you would respect that?] that the judgment passages outweigh the universalist passages, and if you need to retain the doctrine of double judgment on the basis of a literal, “straightforward” reading of Scripture, the old adage follows: be careful what you wish for!”

LOL - Indeed.

Wait! Obeying The Bible, 'with a straightforward reading,' and wishing for something are the same thing?

"Obeying The Bible"? In reference to what?

This is where a healthy Theistic Agnosticism comes into play. IOW Use the brain God gave you.

Too much has been accepted without question.
To the point that THINKING/QUESTIONING in Christianity is considered unbelief. (double Grr...)

J Moltmann’s “The Coming Of God” = “Universal salvation and a double outcome of judgment are therefore both well attested biblically. So

the decision for the one or the other CANNOT be made on the ground of ‘scripture’.”

Did he mean "But" instead of "So"?

IDK --- Something is wacko there. (as noted) Good job.

So, God Has 'some Other Way' for me to make 'my Important decision' for

His Sound Doctrine?

"His Sound Doctrine"?
Just to be clear... ALL doctrine is man-made, not God-made. IMHO

So, "His Sound Doctrine" is more of playing the "God card" to end all discussion.
Probably my BIGGEST point to make in this current post exchange.

Some other way?
Besides accepting without question the predigested dogma they have been pounding into us our whole lives?
Absolutely. "... the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." - 2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV

Colossians 1:9 NIV
... We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,

 

[GRACE ambassador]

ur Discussion Chapter 2 journey is ending here, with:

Part 1 Final Examination Of God's Evidence

Priority! [ study Handling The Word Of Life ]:

I am to humbly believe on The Saviour, Christ Jesus ( for my Salvation ), and then submit to
Him ( confessing Him ) As LORD, and His Authority, As He Has Revealed Himself In His Pure
and Preserved Scriptures, His Word Of Truth To me. Neither separating Them, nor focusing
More on One than The Other, but believing [ with All my heart, soul, and strength ]:

"What Saith The Scripture"?:

“I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy Name for​

Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: For Thou Hast Magnified​

Thy Word Above All Thy Name.” (Psalm 138:2) Amen?​

Just in case I Never mentioned it, I have, All my life, been searching and looking for:

The Truth, The Whole Truth, And Nothing But The Truth!​

On this journey:

Colossians 1:9 NIV
... We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through
all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray ​

for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His​

Will in All wisdom and spiritual understanding" (Colossians 1:9 KJV)​

Thanks, precious friend, if that is what you have doing behind the scenes of This Great
Discussion, I am certainly humbled. I know that I certainly need a lot more of "All wisdom
and understanding," on my All-The-Truth journey. I also desire the same for All of the
precious ( "members one of another" ) brothers and sisters In Christ, ► Today ◄
+
I am also Very humbled, and Extremely Grateful to The Holy Spirit Of God, because:

"...He Maketh Intercession for the saints According To The Will Of God."​

(Romans 8:27) For me? Don't know what's better Than That! Amen!​

Let us see how your prayers are going to be answered By our Loving God, as your
turtle friend is S-o-o-o-o-o-oh close to the to the finish line of this marathon, and a
Final Conclusion:

For ur?: "All will be well...for everyone... there are No exceptions."? with:

?"eternal punishment" are better thought of as meaning "that remedial/corrective​

punishment which God, and God alone, is fit to give." {Barclay, universalist}?​

Or:

For EJ?: Did God Really Mean "Eternal Punishment" That He Gives In Righteous Judgment?

A) ur teaches All those who "did not trust in Christ," in this life (and All fallen angels),​

will be saved/restored in the next life.​

+

At what place and time does everyone gather,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead)? Where and when?

Very Well Spoken crux Of This Important Matter; Great Exam questions!:

B) We will Examine Exactly the "When and Where?" Deciding ur or EJ = Fair enough Exam?:​

​

C) Exam questions:​

​

1) When do all "confess That Jesus Is LORD"?​

​

2) Where, exactly were UNbelievers When they all did so?"​

​

3) Were these UNbelievers then (ur?) "saved/restored" When they 'confessed'?​

​

4) Final Results? to begin: ur=0 and EJ=0, so far...​

As my pattern (1 Timothy 1:16), the apostle Paul, asks In God's Inspired and
Profitable Word Of Truth ( Which Is Above All else! Psalm 138:2 KJV ):

"What Saith The Scripture?":

"And Every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth,​

and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and​

Honour, and Glory, and Power, be Unto Him That Sitteth Upon The Throne,​

and Unto The LAMB For Ever and Ever." (Revelation 5:13 KJV)​

+

"That at The Name of Jesus Every knee should bow, of things in heaven,​

and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue​

should confess that Jesus Christ Is LORD, to the Glory of God the Father."​

(Philippians 2:10-11 KJV)​

The who and the what?: All (Every) creature with Every knee and tongue,
( All the saved and the UNsaved ), Correct?

The where?: In Heaven, on earth, and, Also under the earth (UNsaved 'in the realm
of the dead'), Correct?

Precious friend concurs:

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

No doubt about That Truth Of God! So, when, exactly, In God's Word Of Truth, will
that time be?

The Exam countdown for the "when and where?" now begins:

to be continued in Part 2...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part 2 ur Examination journey's End:

...The "When? and Where?" of All Unbelievers' "confession Jesus Is LORD!" countdown
now begins:

3) ur states/teaches: "at the Final restoration of All things," Correct?:

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together​

in one all things In Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;​

even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestin-​

ated According To The Purpose of Him Who Worketh all things after The Counsel​

of His Own Will: That we should be to The Praise of His Glory, who first trusted​

in Christ." (Ephesians 1:10-12 KJV)...​

hmmm, What happened to "under the earth"? Are they Not "Even In Him" (ur?)

Notice, prayerfully and Carefully, that we "who first trusted (believers Today) In Christ. are
in Biblical Fact, "predestinated... [to] be to The Praise Of His Glory." But, are not they Also?

Therefore, UNbelievers had to "confess, be saved, ( and resurrected to be 'part of the
Saved In Heaven or on earth' ), judged, and Corrected," ( at another time ) Before the
Final restoration of things "in heaven and on earth," so that they Also could "be In Him,"
Correct? So, When was 'that other time'?

Biblically, not at restoration, so, Currently: ur=0?...

Wait, did not my precious friend himself, honestly admit?:

Most don't realize how difficult it is to make a biblical case for UR at all...

...This belongs in my Difficult Text drawer. (which is getting rather full)

Well spoken! - ...continuing Countdown for the when?:

... 3) or?:

2) "at the Final judgment ( correction? ) before the restoration"?

a) hmmm, those under the earth were resurrected? ( already covered in post # 21 ):​

​

(ur declares): ""No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy​

Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.""​

​

b) hmmm, (ur?): "they ( UNbelievers ) confessed and were saved (made Alive)," and:​

​

c) from 3 above, "both which are in heaven, and which are on earth," are restored, thus:​

d) ? these "saved" (former dead UNbelievers?) are now "in one or the other" above, in​

order "to be part of" the restoration, Correct?​

​

However, are they?:

e) "What Does God Say" about their 'condition' When they [ UNbelievers ]​

were resurrected From under the earth, After they confessed?​

What Saith The ( Authoritative ) Scripture? In:​

The Final Judgment ( just Before "The New Heaven and New earth" Restoration )!:

"And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him That Sat On It, from Whose​

Face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place​

for them...."​

'd)' above, is then Biblically Answered By God = "Neither = No place" Thus,

UNbelievers Cannot be 'restored,' since they are Neither "in heaven,​

Nor on earth," Correct?...​

ur=0

Since they cannot 'be restored,' then What? At This Final Righteous Judgment of God, For
them, again, The Pure And Preserved Word Of God's Truth, Plainly And Clearly States:

"...And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God ( The LORD Jesus );..."​

[ ======= dead In sin, --------------------------- and ↑ see John 5:22-23 ↑ ]​

"...and the books were opened: and another book was opened, Which Is​

[ The Book ] Of Life: and the dead were Judged out of those things​

which were written in the books, according to their works...​

​

...And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up​

the dead which were in them [ resurrection of damnation (John 5:29), Correct? ]:​

​

and they were Judged every man according to their works. And death and​

hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is The Second Death. And whosoever​

was Not found Written In The Book Of Life Was Cast into the lake of fire."​

(Revelation 20:11-15 KJB)​

Therefore:

f) Scripture Explicitly States their [ lost ] condition, Even After 'confession':​

​

"the dead small and great stand before God ( The Righteous JUDGE )!"​

​

g) these dead were Not found "Written In The LAMB's Book Of Life!"​

( Contradiction, the [ur] dead cannot have [ Scriptural ] Life! )​

h) "these dead were Cast Into the lake of fire [ Second Death ]!"​

Biblical case for Eternal Judgment?

EJ = 3

Is not This Final Judgment The Fulfillment Of What "Christ Prophesied" on earth,
Which (with [God Has] No Contradictions!) Confirms God's Word Of Truth!!:

"Then shall He Say also unto them on the left hand, Depart From Me,​

ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"​

(Matthew 25:41)​

EJ = 4

"And these [ UNrighteous dead ] shall go away into everlasting​

punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)​

EJ = 5

"...Depart From Me, ye workers of iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23)​

EJ = 6

+ God's Word Of Truth To our own GRACE apostle, Paul:

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that​

obey not The Gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ: who Shall be punished with​

everlasting destruction from The Presence of The LORD, and from The Glory​

of His Power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 cp Matthew 10:28; Revelation 20:11-15)​

EJ = 7

+ God's Word Of Truth To the beloved apostle, John:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and​

brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and Shall Be​

tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)​

EJ = 8

"The same shall drink of the wine of The Wrath of God, which is poured​

out without mixture into the cup of His Indignation; and he shall be​

tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,​

and in the presence of The LAMB: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth​

up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the​

beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."​

(Revelation 14:10-11)​

EJ = 9

ur = 0

...or, When?...

to be continued in Part 3

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part 3 ur Examination journey's End:

...The When? of the Unbelievers "confession Jesus Is LORD!" countdown continues with:

... 3), 2) Or?:

1) "at the Second [ prophesied ] Coming Of Christ, [ 1000 years ] Before the Final judgment

and restoration"? What Saith The Scripture?:​

"Behold, He cometh with clouds; and Every eye shall see Him,​

and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth​

shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7 KJV)​

Where are "they [ UNbelievers ] also which pierced Him"? "under the earth," Correct?

Not yet resurrected for their Final judgment/Final 'sentencing' (# 3 above?), Correct?

Will not these "confess/acknowledge" from "under the earth," at "The Prophesied
Second Coming Of Christ," As Clearly And Plainly Stated By God?:

"And Every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth,​

and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing,​

and Honour, and Glory, and Power, be Unto Him That Sitteth Upon The Throne,​

and Unto The LAMB For Ever and Ever." (Revelation 5:13 KJV)​

+

"That at The Name of Jesus Every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and​

things in earth, and things under the earth; And that Every tongue should​

confess that Jesus Christ Is LORD, to the Glory of God the Father."​

(Philippians 2:10-11 KJV)​

So, as the 'When and Where?' have been Plainly and Clearly answered and thus, imho,
No More 'countdown' is necessary for the "UNbelievers' confession." However:

For evangelism to the "lost and dying world" for us believers who "have Already confessed,
'in the spiritual heart' ( as the dumb Cannot do this with the physical mouth )

Jesus Is LORD!"​

There is yet another "When?" for us [ ► Today ◄ ] to prayerfully and Carefully
Consider, In The Light Of God's [ Other ] Judgment [ "Seat Of Christ" ].

Where "those In [ The Body Of ] Christ" from this Current [ when? ]
Dispensation Of The [ Amazing! ] Grace Of God, "meet Him in the air," and
are Taken To The Glorious Light Of Heaven For "This Day Of testing of works"
( Already discussed in post #5 and in God's Great Grace Departure! )

Now, Before This Occurs:

When Does God Teach Every and All men need to "believe/receive" His Gift
Eternal Salvation, in this life? preaching ur? or:

preaching [ The Foolishness Of God? ] The Gospel Of The Grace Of God, Of
Which we "should Not be ashamed" Of "The Power Of God Unto Salvation"
(1 Corinthians 1:18, 1:21, 1:23, 1:25, 2:14, 3:19; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4),
And, That:

► Today ◄ Is The Day Of Salvation" ( Not 'salvation/restoration' in the future! ):

"(For He Saith, I Have Heard thee in A Time Accepted, and in The Day Of Salvation​

have I Succoured [Helped] thee: Behold, ► Now ◄ Is The Accepted Time; Behold,​

► Now ◄ Is The Day of [ Eternal ] Salvation.) (2 Corinthians 6:2)"​

EJ = 10

"Wherefore (As The Holy Ghost Saith, ► Today ◄ if ye will hear His Voice,​

Harden not your hearts..." (Hebrews 3:7-8)​

EJ = 11

"...knowing therefore The TERROR Of The LORD, we [ ► "Today ◄ ] persuade men..."​

(2 Corinthians 5:11) [ Also see Undiluted Wrath And Undiluted Grace! ]​

​

I Certainly pray and hope so, because, According To God's Truth Of His Holy Scriptures:

EJ = 12

ur = 0
-------------
Summary of Exam questions/Biblical Answers:

1) When do all "confess That Jesus Is LORD"?​

At the Second Coming (Revelation 1:7, 5:13; Philippians 2:10-11 KJV)​

​

2) Where, exactly were UNbelievers When they all did so?"​

"under the earth" (Revelation 1:7, 5:13; Philippians 2:10-11 KJV)​

​

3) Were these UNbelievers then "saved/restored" When they 'confessed'?​

No, they were Not!​

(Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10-15; Matthew 10:28; 25:41, 46, 7:21-23; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)​

​

4) Final Results: ur = 0, compared to, GEJ = 12!​

Biblically, then, as God Is my Witness, my Final Conclusion Of His Evidence (to me) From
His Word of Truth, The Whole Truth, And, Nothing But The Truth [ Thank The LORD! ] =

God's ETERNAL Judgment = 12​

cc: @Hillsage says GEJ is "the most dangerous judgment a believer can have today.
Granted, that is just my opinion." Thanks, precious friend, appreciate your honesty also.

@St. SteVen, Thanks for your wonderful participation (challenging me to perform this
'tough Examination on myself') in this Great discussion, your kindness, and your respect
for my decision; with God's Help, I will humbly do my best to have the same for yours, also.

If perchance, there is any lack of wisdom and understanding His Thoughts/Ways on my part,
then, until I meet The Blessed Saviour In Eternity, I will take comfort In His Biblical Fact! =
What Saith The Scripture? to me:

“For My Thoughts [ are ] not your thoughts, neither [ are ] your ways My Ways,​

Saith The LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My Ways ​

Higher Than your ways, and My Thoughts Than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)​

Amen.
------------------------------------

In Conjunction with Psalm 138:2, another Priority! I must humbly obey His Authority Over me:

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to​

myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us​

​

not to think above That Which Is Written,​

​

that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."​

(1 Corinthians 4:6 KJV)​

closing remarks coming soon...

 

[St. SteVen]

Terrific post. (as usual) Thanks again for all your hard work. Much appreciated.
Just wanted to comment on this bit. Not a criticism, or rebuttal. Just a thought or two.

The who and the what?: All (Every) creature with Every knee and tongue,
( All the saved and the UNsaved ), Correct?

The where?: In Heaven, on earth, and, Also under the earth (UNsaved 'in the realm
of the dead'), Correct?

The designations of "saved" and "unsaved", or of "saved" and "lost" are very much of the Damnationist mindset.
And it's not a problem for you to use them. I use them as well to communicate with the majority that hold that mindset.
However... and just to be clear...

The UR mindset understands that everyone was saved by the finished (completed) work of the atonement.
And that "lost" only refers to a soul out of fellowship with God. The Good Shepherd leaves the ninety-nine,
finds the "lost" sheep and returns it safely to the fold.

So, from that perspective, no one is "lost", as in, predestined to damnation, or separation for "eternity" from God.
And no one is "unsaved" in the same way as those deemed "lost" by the majority view.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[St. SteVen]

3) ur states/teaches: "at the Final restoration of All things," Correct?:

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather togetherin one all things In Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestin-ated According To The Purpose of Him Who Worketh all things after The Counselof His Own Will: That we should be to The Praise of His Glory, who first trustedin Christ." (Ephesians 1:10-12 KJV)...
hmmm, What happened to "under the earth"? Are they Not "Even In Him" (ur?)

Notice, prayerfully and Carefully, that we "who first trusted (believers Today) In Christ. are
in Biblical Fact, "predestinated... [to] be to The Praise Of His Glory." But, are not they Also?

I would say that "all things" in the realm of the dead are ALREADY gathered together.
No need to gather that which is already together in one place.

Where are the things on earth and in heaven gathered to?
Probably to the realm of the dead where these things must take place. AFAIK (as far as I know)
Since not everything, nor everyone, is yet restored.

Good question. Had to think about that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here we go...
"Button, button, who's got the button?"

2) "at the Final judgment ( correction? ) before the restoration"?

a) hmmm, those under the earth were resurrected? ( already covered in post # 21 )ur declares): ""No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the HolySpirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.""b) hmmm, (ur?): "they ( UNbelievers ) confessed and were saved (made Alive)," and:c) from 3 above, "both which are in heaven, and which are on earth," are restored, thus:
d) ? these "saved" (former dead UNbelievers?) are now "in one or the other" above, inorder "to be part of" the restoration, Correct?

Just to be clear, I do not believe in the afterlife as a state of unconscious nonexistence. And a look at the 29 examples
in a Bible search for the search term "the realm of the dead" in the NIV translation bears this out.

Therefore, those in the realm of the dead (the Grave, Sheol) are not yet resurrected. (to life)
They will need to be informed of their imminent redemption and corrected/restored like everyone else.

And terminology gets a bit tricky when we are speaking of the state of the dead. Are the dead conscious? Yes.
Can they communicate? Yes. (like the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus) Are they "saved"? Depends on how you define "saved".
See, tricky business.

 

[St. SteVen]

Since they cannot 'be restored,' then What? At This Final Righteous Judgment of God, For
them, again, The Pure And Preserved Word Of God's Truth, Plainly And Clearly States:

I think they can be restored.
Even those among the Elect will need to be restored. IMHO
Wood, hay and stubble to be burned. And some escaping as one through the flames. (total loss, but saved)

And Jesus said:

Matthew 21:31 NIV
... Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

"...And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God ( The LORD Jesus );..."[ ======= dead In sin, --------------------------- and ↑ see John 5:22-23 ↑ ]
"...and the books were opened: and another book was opened, Which Is[ The Book ] Of Life: and the dead were Judged out of those thingswhich were written in the books, according to their works......And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered upthe dead which were in them [ resurrection of damnation (John 5:29), Correct? ]:and they were Judged every man according to their works. And death andhell were cast into the lake of fire. This is The Second Death. And whosoeverwas Not found Written In The Book Of Life Was Cast into the lake of fire."(Revelation 20:11-15 KJB)

Admittedly, this is a tough text. Not sure what to make of this in total.

What is the purpose of the Lake of Fire? Meaningless torture, or complete restoration?
Many questions.

 

[St. SteVen]

1) "at the Second [ prophesied ] Coming Of Christ, [ 1000 years ] Before the Final judgment
and restoration"? What Saith The Scripture?:
"Behold, He cometh with clouds; and Every eye shall see Him,and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earthshall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7 KJV)
Where are "they [ UNbelievers ] also which pierced Him"? "under the earth," Correct?

Not yet resurrected for their Final judgment/Final 'sentencing' (# 3 above?), Correct?

My understanding is that this is in reference to the Second Coming. Christ's return to earth.
The first coming was here and the Second Coming is here.

Coming with the clouds, that great cloud of witnesses from heaven. (?)
Everyone on earth will be witness. And Israel (those who pierced him) shall wail. (remorse)

 

[St. SteVen]

Where "those In [ The Body Of ] Christ" from this Current [ when? ]
Dispensation Of The [ Amazing! ] Grace Of God, "meet Him in the air," and
are Taken To The Glorious Light Of Heaven For "This Day Of testing of works"
( Already discussed in post #5 and in God's Great Grace Departure! )

Meet Him in the air. That's an interesting point.
Believers alive on earth at the time of the Second Coming raptured to meet the Lord in the air with all the other Saints?
A post-tribulation view. May have been earlier rapture(s)? Pre-trib, mid-trib?

But where is this taking place? And to where will it need to commence? Realm of the dead?
For the second "Harrowing of Hell"?

I knew the where and when would be tough sledding.

 

[St. SteVen]

@GRACE ambassador
Something we need to consider here.
No matter which of the three doctrines of the final judgment we choose to focus on, we will discover problems.
- Damnationism bulldozes the character of God and raises all sorts of Bible translation issues.
- Annihilationism contradicts both Damnationism and UR.
- Universal Redemption (UR) contradicts Damnationism and Annihilationism, declaring correction instead of punishment.

This has been a back burner concern of mine all along during these WONDERFUL discussions.
I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be driving toward a single destination. (final answer)
Which is fine. I appreciate all your hard work on this. Hopefully it has been educational for all readers.

I expect that we will conclude the discussion and take, or keep, our personal positions, but remain friends.
Don't want either of us to be disappointed that we didn't change the other's mind on these things.

cc: @Hillsage

 

[GRACE ambassador]

cc: @St. SteVen, In closing, hoping I gave you plenty of good homework questions in This
Great discussion, and there is also one last question I can answer, per your signature:

"Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? -- Galatians Four : : Sixteen?"

Nope, because:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against ​

powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual ​

wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12)​

But, "The Battle Is The LORD'S!" (similar to 1 Samuel 17:47) Amen?

Thanks for your kind and courteous respect for my [elderly?] due diligence, prayerfully
and Carefully searching ALL The Scriptures, and thus making my Final conclusion (100%).

I also respect you and your own conclusion (95%?), having done the same.
To my precious new, kind, and courteous friend, I don't know what else to say...

Grace, Peace, and JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

================

Scriptural study aids:

God's ONE Word
+
Handling The Word Of Life
+
Bible study Rules

 

[St. SteVen]

cc: @St. SteVen, In closing, hoping I gave you plenty of good homework questions in This
Great discussion, and there is also one last question I can answer, per your signature:

"Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? -- Galatians Four : : Sixteen?"

Nope, because:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against ​

powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual ​

wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12)​

But, "The Battle Is The LORD'S!" (similar to 1 Samuel 17:47) Amen?

Thanks for your kind and courteous respect for my [elderly?] due diligence, prayerfully
and Carefully searching ALL The Scriptures, and thus making my Final conclusion (100%).

I also respect you and your own conclusion (95%?), having done the same.
To my precious new, kind, and courteous friend, I don't know what else to say...

Grace, Peace, and JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

================

Scriptural study aids:

God's ONE Word
+
Handling The Word Of Life
+
Bible study Rules

View attachment 30769

Thanks, precious friend.

As you recall, I was a bit apprehensive at the beginning of our discussion.
It is all too common that other Christians end up being exceedingly angry with me as I attempt to explain UR to them.
So, I anticipated that our discussion would end in the usual blood bath that I am so accustomed to.

And I never know how it will end. I need to continue the education process in hopes of finding others that like me
are willing to give up a forever burning hell to consider another view. Over the years I have gained some wonderful allies
and close friends in this area of UR. Well worth the bruises, I would say.

But this begs the question about WHY those with the traditional view turn so much rancor in my direction. ???
I was glad when I learned of another option to the forever burning hell. About a God of mercy and love.
A God willing to correct his creation; to restore and redeem all things. A happy ending to the story of humankind.

2 Corinthians 6:8-10 NIV
through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.