Open Discussion of UR Chapter Two

[GRACE ambassador]

Welcome:

This discussion was started in the topic titled: Open Discussion of UR Chapter One

With a little help from the precious (honest, courteous, and kind) friend there, who drove Chapter One,
he loaded my vehicle with these Scriptures to continue with here:

James 2:13

"For He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath ​

shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."​

I haven't thought about this since the last time I read my Bible through, probably missed/overlooked it.
Your comments first, please?
+

Ecclesiastes 12:14

"For God Shall Bring every work into judgment, with every ​

secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."​

I believe this is a general statement about God's Judgment, but considering (from Ch 1):

This is why I posit that scriptural truth is not singular. (not sure if that defies any of your "rules")

If you mean a Scripture Passage may have 'a Plural' meaning, I think this fits the bill of a general
summary of future doctrines of Multiple ( Specific ) Judgments. Make sense?

On the need to know about "rules" @St. SteVen was referring to my thread of: Bible study Rules...

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your kind and generous introduction, my friend.
You make this place very welcoming.

"For He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."
I haven't thought about this since the last time I read my Bible through, probably missed/overlooked it.
Your comments first, please?

Seems hard to glean from this translation. My quote reads: "... Mercy triumphs over judgment." - NIV
Certainly a warning for the unmerciful. But, in the end, "... mercy rejoiceth against judgment."

"For God Shall Bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
I believe this is a general statement about God's Judgment, but considering (from Ch 1):

Yes, even those with wood, hay, and stubble to burn, will answer for every idle word, impure thought and evil deed.
The death penalty for sin has been paid in full. Yet there is still judgment and an age of restoration to come. IMHO
Answering > Correction > Repentance > Restoration

Mark 9:49 KJV
For every one shall be salted with fire...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Thanks for your kind and generous introduction, my friend.
You make this place very welcoming.

You are Very Welcome!!

Yes, even those with wood, hay, and stubble to burn, will answer for every idle word, impure thought and evil deed.
The death penalty for sin has been paid in full. Yet there is still judgment and an age of restoration to come. IMHO
Answering > Correction > Repentance > Restoration

Mark 9:49 KJV
For every one shall be salted with fire...

Thanks, I appreciate your humility in your expressing your view of 'Complete Restoration of all.'

As a precursor to expanding on the Judgment Where there will be "wood, hay, and stubble to
burn," please give us your Valuable input of the following:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; ​

because they received not The Love Of The Truth, that they might Be ​

Saved. ​

​

And for this cause God Shall Send them Strong Delusion, that they should ​

believe a lie: That they ALL might be damned who believed not The Truth, ​

but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)​

 

[St. SteVen]

As a precursor to expanding on the Judgment Where there will be "wood, hay, and stubble to
burn," please give us your Valuable input of the following:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not The Love Of The Truth, that they might Be Saved. And for this cause God Shall Send them Strong Delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they ALL might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 10-12)

That's chapter 2 of II Thessalonians for any who are trying to follow the texts. Thanks.

In "them that perish". Not perished, past tense, or will perish, future tense. Are CURRENTLY perishing, present tense.
The state we are in prior to restoration. But first, the judgment. (correction, repentance... ultimate redemption)

The antichrist will work the same way as Satan (vs 9) "and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing." (vs 10)

I don't see "ALL might be damned" here. --- Is someone altering "the Word"?
Condemned = face judgment.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

That's chapter 2 of II Thessalonians for any who are trying to follow the texts. Thanks.

Appreciate it; been corrected...

cc: @St. SteVen:
Did Martin Luther say?: he "had Two Days = 'This Day and That Day' = one on his calendar,
and the other was Judgment Day." Thus he lived his life, according to those. So these
questions applicable to our (ur) discussion, were triggered:

1) Is There A Day Coming for believers when each of us will be Judged By our

LORD for our service to Him and our faithfulness to The Truth Of His Word? ​

2a) Is This Judgment Day Also The Exact Same Day for UNbelievers (in this life) who

rejected Him, and did not "confess Him As their LORD"?​

​

2b) Or: is there a possible 'alternative'?:

I don't see "ALL might be damned" here. --- Is someone altering "the Word"?
Condemned = face judgment.

Seems the 1611 and Cambridge editions agree?: "That they all might bee damned who beleeued not the trueth, but had pleasure in vnrighteousnes."

I thought BOTH "saved = face judgment"? and yours above? Again, are they
the Same judgment?:

Yes, even those with wood, hay, and stubble to burn, will answer for every idle word, impure thought and evil deed.
The death penalty for sin has been paid in full. Yet there is still judgment and an age of restoration to come. IMHO

Thanks for the info:

imho, I believe the "age of restoration" is after ALL Judgments Are Completed, imho.
Now journeying on with What Saith The Scripture?:

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man Shall Receive ​

his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with​

God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

According to The Grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I​

have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take ​

heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than​

That is laid, Which Is Jesus Christ.

Now IF any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones,​

​

wood, hay, stubble;​

​

Every man's work Shall Be Made Manifest: for The Day Shall Declare it, because​

it Shall Be Revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he Shall Receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT he himself Shall Be Saved;​

yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)​

​

Now, I apologize if I am Very S-l-o-w at understanding, but hopefully "laboring" at it?
Problems I am perceiving with:

v8: EVERY man means EVERY man, believers And Unbelievers (who did not "confess" in
this life, But, did "confess WHEN they heard the Name of Jesus," after death (afterlife?),
just before this [Final?] Judgment, (according to @St. SteVen's Ch 1, #50), Correct?

v9: Having a difficult time understanding: HOW are UNbelievers "co-laborers" with God?

Do they, after confessing, get a chance to do "some works"? I believe Paul was​

addressing this Judgment to the (WHO?) "sanctified saints, babes In Christ" (ch 1:2),​

and "brethren" (2:1; 3:1), and us (believers [co-laboring builders?]) today (in this life),​

was he not?​

​

How then, can this Judgment be applicable to "Unbelievers who get saved in the afterlife"?

Probably could ask a ba-zillion more problematic questions (about this 3rd-to-Final
Judgment?), but I will quit-it-out for now, and give this precursor to the Examination Of
[ WHAT I think is ] The Final Judgment, utilizing Rule # 2 (God's Command) of BSR,
Praying this is "Approved Unto Him"?:

God's Current Context Of The Mystery, In His "Dispensation Of Grace":

The Judgment Seat Of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) (above)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Future Context, in prophecy, and end-times eschatology

( Interim judgments = Israel 'in the wilderness' + 'sheep and goats'... )

The Great White Throne Judgment Of God...

to be continued...

 

[St. SteVen]

cc: @St. SteVen:
Did Martin Luther say?: he "had Two Days = 'This Day and That Day' = one on his calendar,
and the other was Judgment Day." Thus he lived his life, according to those. So these
questions applicable to our (ur) discussion, were triggered:

Very good. Bear in mind that the term "Day"probably means an age. (sure you already know that) But...

1) Is There A Day Coming for believers when each of us will be Judged By our
LORD for our service to Him and our faithfulness to The Truth Of His Word?

"Truth to his Word"? Where did that come from?
And how are such things measured? According to who, or what?
And don't say, "the Bible". There is no consensus on what it means.

2a) Is This Judgment Day Also The Exact Same Day for UNbelievers (in this life) who
rejected Him, and did not "confess Him As their LORD"?

Yes, "Day", as in age. As I understand it.
But this points to a weakness of mine, that you may be able to help me with.
My Eschatology. Not very buttoned up. (as the saying goes)

2b) Or: is there a possible 'alternative'?:

Well, each in turn I suppose. I haven't seen the order of service on this. \
So, we'll see what the MC has in mind (Master of Ceremonies, of course)

I thought BOTH "saved = face judgment"? and yours above? Again, are they
the Same judgment?:

As far as I know. My view. But, I'm open to input on that.

imho, I believe the "age of restoration" is after ALL Judgments Are Completed, imho.
Now journeying on with What Saith The Scripture?:

Well, by the conclusion of the age of correction, restitution is the OUTCOME. IMHO
Therefore an AGE will not be needed to accomplish this. Unless I am missing something?
What would happen in the age of restoration if it proceeded the "age of correction"? ???

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man Shall Receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together withGod: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Yes! A reward. EVERY MAN, isn't that what it says? Hooray! EVERY MAN. Wow. Anyone missing here?

According to The Grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, Ihave laid The Foundation, and another buildeth Thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay thanThat is laid, Which Is Jesus Christ.

Absolutely!
Yup. Let's think comparatively about two persons.

- One person was a religious person that was baptized, attended church regularly, gave generously and by all appearances was a good person.
Unfortunately, the facade was hiding some terrible things. (I'll not go into detail)

- Then we have a person that grew up in a third world country far removed from Christian knowledge.
But, their God-given conscience guided them through life and kept them in line with God's law. (written in their heart) See Romans 2:14-16

Question:
How would these two fare in the judgement? (comparatively)

Romans 2:14-16 KJV
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Now IF any man build upon This Foundation gold, silver, precious stones,wood, hay, stubble;Every man's work Shall Be Made Manifest: for The Day Shall Declare it, becauseit Shall Be Revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Yes. Everyone will be judged/corrected/repentant/restored.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he Shall Receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT he himself Shall Be Saved;yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)

Rewards are GOOD !!!
Even the one with no works is WHAT ??????????????? Saved? !!!!!
Are you kidding me ???????????? - LOL

Now, I apologize if I am Very S-l-o-w at understanding, but hopefully "laboring" at it?
Problems I am perceiving with:

v8: EVERY man means EVERY man, believers And Unbelievers (who did not "confess" in
this life, But, did "confess WHEN they heard the Name of Jesus," after death (afterlife?),
just before this [Final?] Judgment, (according to @St. SteVen's Ch 1, #50), Correct?

"Every man" means "all of humankind", to me.
So, yes. Believers and "unbelievers" (needs definition)
Everyone will be in the judgment. I don't know the order of events.
If you were the Producer, what would you do?

v9: Having a difficult time understanding: HOW are UNbelievers "co-laborers" with God?
Do they, after confessing, get a chance to do "some works"? I believe Paul wasaddressing this Judgment to the (WHO?) "sanctified saints, babes In Christ" (ch 1:2),and "brethren" (2:1; 3:1), and us (believers [co-laboring builders?]) today (in this life),was he not?

I don't know.
Was the term "co-laborers" intended to be divisive?
(salvation by works?)

How then, can this Judgment be applicable to "Unbelievers who get saved in the afterlife"?

Probably could ask a ba-zillion more problematic questions (about this 3rd-to-Final
Judgment?), but I will quit-it-out for now, and give this precursor to the Examination Of
[ WHAT I think is ] The Final Judgment, utilizing Rule # 2 (God's Command) of BSR,
Praying this is "Approved Unto Him"?:

AMEN

God's Current Context Of The Mystery, In His "Dispensation Of Grace":

The Judgment Seat Of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) (above)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Future Context, in prophecy, and end-times eschatology

( Interim judgments = Israel 'in the wilderness' + 'sheep and goats'... )

The Great White Throne Judgment Of God...

to be continued...

Sounds good. Thanks.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Sounds good. Thanks.

Your Welcome, and thank you for more Valuable input of your understanding of
God's Important Matters.

Condemned = face judgment.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

? KJV? Did you mean NIV? Mine shows:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJB (while were at it might as well "Compare spiritual things"?):

9 "[ Even him ], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and
signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in
them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they
might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that
they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Of course, IF I am wrong, I will suffer loss At The Judgment Seat Of Christ, for choosing
"the tampered-with version" (Satan's devices?) questioning, adding to, subtracting from,
watering down, and Denying God's Preserved And Pure Word Of Truth. Not "well done"?

Of course, IF...but I really should get back to my homework [work still in progress] On:

The Final [?] Judgment...​

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course, IF I am wrong, I will suffer loss At The Judgment Seat Of Christ, for choosing
"the tampered-with version" (Satan's devices?) questioning, adding to, subtracting from,
watering down, and Denying God's Preserved And Pure Word Of Truth. Not "well done"?

I see. That seems very important to you.
Pardon my lack of concern in that department.

Is the "adding" and "subtracting" issue based on the statement near the end of Revelations?
I have a thought about that, but don't want to offend you.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Cc: @St. SteVen: lagging (sagging?) Bible questions, heading towards Final [?] Judgment?

1) "Every man" also includes EVERY angel?:

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own​

habitation, He Hath Reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto​

The Judgment of The Great Day.” (Jude 1:6 KJV)​

Let me see IF I am understanding this, according to ur?: These angels are under
[gr. aidios ] an "indefinite age of being chained" (not everlasting?) Until The [ Final? ]
Judgement, Which, in urHO is 1 Corinthians 3:8-15?

Pending More questions = still a work in progress - appreciate your patience, love and kindness...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I want all your questions to be answered to the best of my ability.
But I'm not afraid to say, "I don't know."

Very Much Appreciated - so, more questions about:

ur = Condemned = face judgment.

the judgment. (correction, repentance... ultimate redemption)​

Correction > Repentance > Restoration​

2)
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him That Sent Me,
Hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto
life.” (John 5:24 KJV) ......... shall not come into ↑↑ judgment ↑↑?
............................................................. shall not "face judgment"? Please help, I'm confused

3)
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29 KJV)
+
4)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16 KJV)

a) IF ALL "are at The [Final?] Judgment of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, would not that be Only ​

ONE resurrection?​

b) Could be my 'presupposition' is that condemned and damned are the same? is that​

Incorrect?​

​

c) IF they are the same, then Neither group will "face judgment" as shown above?​

WHEW, this homework is getting tougher by verse, eh?

 

[St. SteVen]

Cc: @St. SteVen: lagging (sagging?) Bible questions, heading towards Final [?] Judgment?

1) "Every man" also includes EVERY angel?:

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their ownhabitation, He Hath Reserved in everlasting chains under darkness untoThe Judgment of The Great Day.” (Jude 1:6 KJV)
Let me see IF I am understanding this, according to ur?: These angels are under
[gr. aidios ] an "indefinite age of being chained" (not everlasting?) Until The [ Final? ]
Judgement, Which, in urHO is 1 Corinthians 3:8-15?

That's a great question.
And perhaps a good example of how preconceptions can get in the way of understanding.

Interesting for me as well. I am used to reading this scripture in the NIV, or other non-KJV translations.

Our tendency, is to see the term "everlasting chains", and assume it is in reference to the TIME instead of the QUALITY of the chains.
Which I take to mean UNBREAKABLE. The rest of the verse supports this premise. It reads... (copied from your post)

"... He Hath Reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto The Judgment of The Great Day.” (Jude 1:6 KJV)

If "everlasting chains" referred to the time spent, it would NOT be "unto The Judgment of The Great Day.” Right?

A side point would be to explore how many of these angels are kept until (unto) the Judgment Day?
And WHEN, or WHY were they kept?

Assuming (my preconception) that these angels (which kept not their first estate) are the fallen angels, the demonic realm...
Then they were still active at the time of Christ. (he cast out many demons) And EVEN after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Even though they were conquered on the cross. "And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly,
triumphing over them in it." - Colossians 2:15 KJV

In the Acts of the Apostles we see the story of Paul in Philippi. (Acts 16:16-18)
Paul delivered (cast the demon out of) a possessed fortune-teller girl.
Interestingly, the angel/demon, is referred to as a spirit in the text.

"And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit,
I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.
And he came out the same hour." - Acts 16:18 KJV

And dare I say it, even today, people are being delivered from demons.
Both oppression and possession. (a topic in itself)

With all this in mind, what does the scripture in Jude even mean?
Who are these angels?

This belongs in my Difficult Text drawer. (which is getting rather full) - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

Very Much Appreciated - so, more questions about:

ur = Condemned = face judgment.

the judgment. (correction, repentance... ultimate redemption)​

Correction > Repentance > Restoration​

2)
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him That Sent Me,
Hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto
life.” (John 5:24 KJV) ......... shall not come into ↑↑ judgment ↑↑?
............................................................. shall not "face judgment"? Please help, I'm confused

3)
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29 KJV)
+
4)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16 KJV)

a) IF ALL "are at The [Final?] Judgment of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, would not that be Only ​

ONE resurrection?​

b) Could be my 'presupposition' is that condemned and damned are the same? is that​

Incorrect?​

​

c) IF they are the same, then Neither group will "face judgment" as shown above?​

WHEW, this homework is getting tougher by verse, eh?

I need to leave for work soon. So I'll give a quick answer and we can dig into the details later.

I see connection with the John 5:24 text and the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
In John we have those that have crossed over from death to life, in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus
we have a chasm that cannot be crossed. (at the time, or without help)

Those who have crossed over will not face the same judgment (or as severe?) as those who have not.
Certainly their works will be judged. So how is that NO judgment?

Much more to say about this. Thanks. Have a blessed day.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

cc: @St. SteVen: More questions concerning Definitions:

Proverbs 21:12 "overthroweth" = Correction?

Psalm 52:5 "God shall likewise destroy (hebrew 'nathats' = correction?) thee
for ever (h. 'netsach' = temporary/indefinite age?)"

"[ It is ] joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction [ shall be ] to the workers of iniquity."
(Proverbs 21:15 cp 10:29 KJV)

?HOWever the iniquity workers have 'nothing to fear,' because at The [ Final? ] Judgment
of Correction, not Destruction (Same thing?) there will be ur (confession, faith, correction,
righteousness, reconciliation, and restoration for ALL of) mankind, including demonic spiritual
beings WHO were 'workers of iniquity'?

Just doing my due (seeking Evidence and Double checking it ALL) Diligence to see if
my understanding of ur is well summarized (Bigger picture) to present to a court of law,
if need be?

to be continued...

 

[St. SteVen]

Proverbs 21:12 "overthroweth" = Correction?

I don't know. Maybe.

Psalm 52:5 "God shall likewise destroy (hebrew 'nathats' = correction?) thee
for ever (h. 'netsach' = temporary/indefinite age?)"

I don't know. Is there a point?

"[ It is ] joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction [ shall be ] to the workers of iniquity. " (Proverbs 21:15 cp 10:29 KJV)

I don't know. Define "destruction"?

?HOWever the iniquity workers have 'nothing to fear,' because at The [ Final? ] Judgment
of Correction, not Destruction (Same thing?) there will be ur (confession, faith, correction,
righteousness, reconciliation, and restoration for ALL of) mankind, including demonic spiritual
beings WHO were 'workers of iniquity'?

The short answer is, "Yes."

Acts 3:21 KJV
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Just doing my due (seeking Evidence and Double checking it ALL) Diligence to see if
my understanding of ur is well summarized (Bigger picture) to present to a court of law,
if need be?

As you should.

If we go to Chapter 3, I'll have some questions for you about God's character.
Unless you would prefer those on the Chapter 1 topic? (Too many topics?) - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

ur = Condemned = face judgment.
the judgment. (correction, repentance... ultimate redemption)Correction > Repentance > Restoration

Yes. IMHO

2)
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My Word, and believeth on Him That Sent Me,
Hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto
life.” (John 5:24 KJV) ......... shall not come into ↑↑ judgment ↑↑?
............................................................. shall not "face judgment"? Please help, I'm confused

As I said (hopefully) in a previous post, the judgment will be different for believers.
More focused on rewards for good works and burning away worthless works.

Although "religious" people may be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Matthew 21:31 KJV
"... Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."

3)
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29 KJV)

I don't know. Would have to dig into that one.
Let me restate that all three doctrines of the final judgment are biblical.
WHICH MEANS... we will find biblical support for ALL THREE VIEWS.

So, I am NOT surprised that you can find conflicting scriptures on this subject.
That's just the way it is. Choose the view that resonates with you.

Most conservative religious people fight tooth and claw to keep the doctrine of hell.
Since they love hell so much, maybe I should give it to them. - LOL

4)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16 KJV)

Supports Damnationism, sort of. Define "damned".

Is this the gospel?
Receive the free gift of salvation. Or if you prefer, you will be incinerated.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

a) IF ALL "are at The [Final?] Judgment of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, would not that be Only ONE resurrection?

Who's counting?

b) Could be my 'presupposition' is that condemned and damned are the same? is thatIncorrect?

Not sure. Perhaps. A study in itself.

c) IF they are the same, then Neither group will "face judgment" as shown above?

Uh... I think everyone will face judgment.
There's a difference (to me) between facing judgment and NOT being judged.
Sorry if that seems like hairsplitting. (happy to explain, as always, if able)

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't know. Would have to dig into that one.
Let me restate that all three doctrines of the final judgment are biblical.
WHICH MEANS... we will find biblical support for ALL THREE VIEWS.

So, I am NOT surprised that you can find conflicting scriptures on this subject.
That's just the way it is. Choose the view that resonates with you.

More on this. cc: @GRACE ambassador

One of the first hurdles I had to get over when I embraced UR is the apparent "loss" of eternal life.
Matthew chapter 25 and verse 46 is quite a battle ground in this regard.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matthew 25:46 KJV

The NT Greek shows a single word for both the everlasting and eternal in the KJV, αἰώνιον (aiōnion).

The (cursed) NIV uses "eternal" for both "punishment" and "life". For the same NT Greek word, αἰώνιον (aiōnion).

But, the point is that both "punishment" and "life" are of equal duration.
Therefore, if the "punishment" is NOT eternal (everlasting), then neither is the "life".
Thus the apparent "loss" of eternal life. Oops, hang on. Don't want to lose MY eternal life!
What to do, what to do... ???

Young's Literal Translation uses "age-during" instead of "eternal" (everlasting).
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' - Matthew 25:46 YLT
Which I understood to be a more faithful translation of the NT Greek word aiōnion, but mighty awkward in English.

And it's easy to understand aiōnion as being an eon. A long, but not unending period of time.

But how do I solve this issue of the apparent "loss" of eternal life? Yikes!

I then realized two things.
1) Only God is eternal.
2) One age proceeds the next.

Meaning, for our purposes, that there are ages to come, beyond the Age of Restoration. Sweet.
I can live with that. (literally)

 

[St. SteVen]

4)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16 KJV)

a) IF ALL "are at The [Final?] Judgment of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, would not that be Only ONE resurrection?
b) Could be my 'presupposition' is that condemned and damned are the same? is thatIncorrect?c) IF they are the same, then Neither group will "face judgment" as shown above?

Did a bit of research on this one. In my post above, I wrote, "Define "damned".
Just as I suspected. The word "damned", used in the KJV, is not conclusive in the NT Greek.
Condemned to what? Worthy of what punishment? Sentenced to what?

will be condemned.
κατακριθήσεται (katakrithēsetai)
Verb - Future Indicative Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2632: To condemn, judge worthy of punishment. From kata and krino; to judge against, i.e. Sentence.

 

[St. SteVen]

Psalm 52:5 "God shall likewise destroy (hebrew 'nathats' = correction?) thee
for ever (h. 'netsach' = temporary/indefinite age?)"

I'll take a run at this one.

"God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." - Psalm 52:5

Difficult to tell, but this seems to be speaking about this life, not the afterlife. May even be some literary exaggeration.
We tend to take everything in the Bible so literally. Which may not have been the intent in the writing. Example below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible.
Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today.
For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass
to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Compare.

Revelation 14:11 KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

cc: @St. SteVen, this (long-time?) unpacking of The Final Judgment seems to be Very
Important, so yet another Related pre-cursor question is this:

"And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, LORD God Almighty, True ​

and Righteous are Thy Judgments. And the fourth angel poured out his vial​

upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.​

​

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed The Name of God,​

Which hath power over these plagues: and they repented Not to give Him ​

glory. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and​

his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,​

​

And blasphemed The God of heaven because of their pains and their sores,​

and repented not of their deeds." (Revelation 16:7-11)​

1) This is not The Unforgivable sin Of Blaspheming The Holy Spirit, is it? If so, then
ur is saying "At Judgment (correction?), ALL will, by The Spirit, "confess 'Jesus is LORD'
and be saved," does not make sense.

2) IF they being scorched with heat here on earth in this life (Correction?), blaspheming
God, and not repenting/being saved in this life, why would they "change their mind" in
the resurrection of damnation and not be "cast into the lake of 'everlasting torment is fire
and brimstone.'

3) I only see, after death, that ALL (those Outside of Christ) will acknowledge (confess) to God,
But, have yet to find anyone Judged (Corrected?) "repenting (as not above), and having faith"
to be saved (a Second chance?), in the afterlife.

I think that was my last 'pre-cursor' Before "The Final Judgment"... so...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

cc: @St. SteVen Part 1 The Final Judgment:

Since I am not "The Producer" of these events, just the humble, Truth-seeking 'student,
(ok, ONE more Pre-cursor...) if I may consider, for a moment,... In Light of:

"And He Said unto them, These are The Words which I spake unto you, while ​

I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which Were Written in the ​

law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me."​

(Luke 24:44 KJV)​

"For The Father Judgeth no man, but hath committed ALL Judgment Unto The Son" ​

(John 5:22)​

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: ​

but rather fear Him Which Is Able to destroy both soul and body in hell."​

(Matthew 10:28 cp Luke 16:19-31)​

...these applicable Passages, From:

Prophecies of prophets?:

"But The LORD [ is ] with me As A Mighty Terrible One: therefore my persecutors​

shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they​

shall not prosper: [ their ] everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten."​

(Jeremiah 20:11 cp 23:40 KJV) ↑ ↑ Double Confirmation ↑ ↑ ↑ ?​

?NIV v11 ↑ not so much, ↑
but verse 40: "I will bring on you everlasting
disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.” Concurs?

"God Is Jealous, and The LORD Revengeth; The LORD Revengeth, and Is Furious;​

The LORD Will Take Vengeance on His adversaries, and He Reserveth Wrath for​

His enemies. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will​

not at ALL acquit [ the wicked ]..." (Nahum 1:2-3 KJV)" No restoration?​

Psalms?

"For The LORD Loveth Judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they​

are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. [for ever?]"​

(Psalm 37:28 KJV) Correction (judgment) of His Saints, but Not the wicked?​

"But The LORD shall endure for ever: He Path Prepared His Throne for judgment."​

(Psalm 9:7 KJV)​

"Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the ​

congregation of the righteous." (Psalm 1:5 KJV)​

law? I apologize, I could find no hints of everlasting condemnation in Moses' law...

End of Final Pre-cursor to The Final Judgment in Part 2...