Jim B
Well-Known Member
St SteVen, is the Compassion Christian Center (Minneapolis) still in existence? I attended church there in the 1970s.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
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I have plainly shown you that all the lost are placed in the Lake of Fire, it is now your responsibility to show us in Scripture where they get out. If you can't do this, you have made a false claim and should apologize to everyone on these forums.
There are some out there who think, well I'll be released one day from punishment in the flames so why even bother with walking the straight and narrow path that leads to life. I can still live my life as I please and in the end I still win.
You will answer for this, Steven, and it will not be pleasant.
In a sense, I am both.
I don't believe in the "God" the church has presented us with.
Not that I am aware of. We should Google it, err... I mean Duck Duck Go it. - LOL
So, you lived here for how long?
ButterflyJones
Well-Known Member
Neither do I.
Just a read of the OT tells me the God there in the Tanakh is made in the image and likeness of man. A totally depraved genocidal psychotic one.
Yet that is why Jesus in the New told us not to believe every spirit. But to test them and see if they are of God.
Notice in the New Testament Jesus more than once referred to a teaching in the Old, and then said in counter to it, but I tell you......
For instance Matthew 5.
There it is, what this all comes down to. The Lake of Fire, when do the tormented exit?
Death and Hell are thrown in the LoF. Are the "damned" still there then?
The fire is eternal. But is the torment?
Most would do most anything to avoid two minutes in Hell.
That is, the Hell invented by the church as a threat to gain and keep converts.
GOOGLE question; "when was the word hell invented?"
GOOGLE's answer;
About 17,400,000 results (0.46 seconds)
The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.
cc: @Hillsage
My, my...
Ask the rich man "who lifted his eyes in hell, saying, I am tormented in these flames.
It stands to reason the first thing he would ask is let me out of here, or when can I leave this place.
But he asked that Lazarus be sent to his brothers to warn them of this place.
Somehow he knew there was no way out, or he would have made mention of it.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
No, it is your responsibility to show us in scripture the difference between the "lake of fire" and hell. And you might also enlighten us as to just why 'your' OMNISCIENT God was too stupid to remember that he created your 'eternal HELL fire' "for the devil and his messengers."
MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Personally, I find it ironic that 'Your' ALL KNOWING God apparently forgot to mention He really created it for the majority of all of His creation.
ButterflyJones
Well-Known Member
FaithNo, it is your responsibility to show us in scripture the difference between the "lake of fire" and hell. And you might also enlighten us as to just why 'your' OMNISCIENT God was too stupid to remember that he created your 'eternal HELL fire' "for the devil and his messengers."
MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Personally, I find it ironic that 'Your' ALL KNOWING God apparently forgot to mention He really created it for the majority of all of His creation.
Christian
"... 'your' OMNISCIENT God was too stupid .... "
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
BJ, I'm not sure what this response means. But I'm assuming my 'admittedly' harsh comment does show the same frustration we have for the harsh accusations made against us. Accusations made by those who want to belittle us for believing in a more loving, merciful and forgiving GOD than the nominal apostate church came up with 200 years after Jesus and the apostles were long gone.
Note; MY OMNICIENT GOD did not make a stupid statement. He knew that He created HELL FIRE judgments for right here and for right now. The FIRE wasn't made to throw the devil and his angels in to. It was created as a tool for the devil and his messengers to attack us ALL in any area of our life that is in rebellion to his holiness. His fires will torture until they have accomplished the purpose for which God created His FIRE.
His "Holy Ghost and FIRE" are for us.
"ALL men shall be salted with FIRE".....ALL means you and me.
Do you know what the GREEK word for FIRE is? It is PUR!!!!! What English word do we get from 'that' word? How about PURE.
Yes. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Torment. Jesus warned of this. Better to lose that eye or hand.
Are you claiming that the Rich Man was ALREADY in the Lake of Fire?
That may be an eschatological issue.
Is that what happened?
No, he was having a rational discussion with father Abraham.
And he was given reason for why he was there. Do you recall what that was?
Does that fit your gospel? The afterlife is not as cut-and-dried as you would like it to be.
Luke 16:25 NIV
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Yes. And it would surprise you to know that I do as well.
UR is not a get-out-of-hell-free card.
The more work we need done, the more serious it will be.
Best case would be to burn away the dross and be purified in no time.
Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV
Did you think you would avoid it?
You are projecting your view onto the text. (I do it to)
Based on that text, what would the warning have been to the brothers?
What did they need to do to avoid that place? (according to that text)
Luke 16:25 NIV
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Now, for your UR claim to be true, show me where that rich man got out of hell, or anyone else. You can't deny the fact that the UR teaches everyone eventually gets out of hell. Now show us where that's at in the Scripture!
As you well know, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (acknowledge) Jesus Christ as Lord.
When does this take place? And where does this take place? At what place and time does everyone gather,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead)? Where and when?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23,Romans 14:11,Philippians 2:10,Revelation 15:4)
The born-again will bow to Christ when they see Him. How could they not having trusted Him all this time.
The doomed will bow the knee at the Great White Throne of Judgment, whether they want to or not!
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?
And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
Of course, you won’t see it. Or you will say the parables have nothing to do about Gods judgements at all and that they aren’t “literal.” So explain to us what the parables mean then. We’re listening.
Where is this prison the man who didn’t forgive the debt is thrown into? There is an outer darkness and there is a lake of fire. Who and what is cast into each of these? And is either of these the prison from which one will not escape until the last cent is paid? And what of the ones who fed Christ and didn’t even know they had done so who inherit the earth?
You are arrogantly dealing with this man in here who knows and understands quite a bit more more than you do and he still keeps approaching you in meekness despite your attempts at browbeating him.
I’d wager quite a bit of money that Steven most definitely does NOT think that way and I’m basing that on talking With him no more than a few days.
You have no idea what you are saying, that he will answer for “this” in unpleasantness.
LOL, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I suppose you lean toward the UR or I wouldn't be receiving this post.
In answer to the meaning of your Scripture verses in Matt. 25:31-46, if you read the context, you will see that Christ is addressing the Gentile nations, in other words, this is "the judgment of the nations.
This takes place at the Second Coming, as plainly seen in 25:31. Christ is judging the Gentile nations according to how they treated Israel in the "time of Jacob's Trouble." The Second Coming takes place as the anti-christ is destroying Israel, The Warrior King that Israel looked for at His first coming is now revealed. Christ saves Israel, this is the moment that Paul speaks of "and all of Israel will be saved."
The nations that Christ referred to as "I was hungry and you gave me no meat, thirsty and you gave me no drink," are the nations that did not help Israel, but joined with the anti-christ to destroy them.
Whether they want to or not?
Did you not read the definition of "acknowledge" below?
It says, whole-heartedly, and without reservation.
That doesn't sound like the confession of "the doomed".
Sounds more like the confession of the redeemed.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Quotes below from @stunnedbygrace to @Charlie24
Thanks for coming to my defense.
Thank you, brother.
You would be wrong in your supposing. It makes me literally nauseous when I think about men taking the mark or men being cast into the outer darkness. Almost every day of my life I hope and hope the outer darkness will only last a thousand years since it is a worse fate than the lake for a human.
Isaiah 45:23
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."
Sounds to me the Lord will apply some pressure.
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