Original Sin (or sin nature) in the Bible:

[Bible Highlighter]

We can agree to disagree on broccoli. Not on matters that affects ones salvation. You are not the only persons eyes I'm trying to open to calvinist doctrine like inherited sin nature from Adam. Others need to know what you are promoting is unscriptual heresy.

This heresy changes Gods true nature from loving and just to hateful, immoral and unjust.
All that believe in this doctrine need to state that God is condemning innocent babies who do not know right from wrong to hell.

Calvinism has caused more believers to loose their faith and become atheists than any other so called "christian" theology. It is wicked, and from satan's own deceitful mind.

OS can only be traced as far back to Augustine. No 1st. Century christians believed God imputes one mans sins on another. Talk to orthodox Jews, they also do not believe this doctrine is taught in the Torah.

I want to here proponents of Innate sinful nature, OS, tell me it is morally right to punish their children for the crimes they commited. Every one knows this is injustice not justice, yet they proudly proclaim God does this to us. This false doctrine makes God into a immoral monster.

Have you not read about King David losing his son because of his sins? The deeper reason his child was taken was because it gave an occasion for the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme (See: 2 Samuel 12:13-15). So his sins had a consequence upon his own child by God intervening Himself.

Furthermore, Levi paid tithes in Abraham. For Levi was still yet in Abraham’s loins when Melchisedec met him (See: Hebrews 7:9-10).
This means we are a part of our parents.

Jeremiah 32:18 (KJB)
“Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the Lord of hosts, is his name,”

Jeremiah 32:18 (NLT)
“You show unfailing love to thousands, but you also bring the consequences of one generation’s sin upon the next.”

It does not mean that the children pay for their parent’s sins but that they are facing the punishment or after effects of what their parents did wrong (Like with King David).

But we are talking about Federal Headship of Adam.
Your father is not the representative of the whole entire human race. Adam is.
Jesus is the last Adam who is to represent the change in which representative you want to be under.

In Adam… you will die.
There is no life in Adam (despite your claim that there is innocence and life there).
There is only life in Jesus Christ (The last Adam).
You can only do good in Christ.
Jesus Himself said there is none good but God (Matthew 19:17).

Also, if we are completely autonomous and separate from our parents and we are in no way related to our parents, you may be on to something. But we are connected to our parents, and their wrong choices can effect us in bad ways more than we can imagine. A parent who is a drunk can pass on his bad habit to his child. A parent who smokes around his child can give them lung cancer. The child may not have a real choice because they are being provided for and have nowhere else to turn. Sin has a way of spreading like a cancer. This is what Adam has done upon humanity. To deny this is to deny the world around you. Find me a perfect and innocent person who does only good who has not accepted Jesus Christ. If you do… then you would be right or correct. If one is truly innocent and good, then only good fruit will abound. This is why we need Jesus because on our own we cannot do good without the Lord Jesus working in us. You may deceive yourself that people can be good and do good without the Lord Jesus and be innocent in Adam, but that would only be your own delusion, my friend.

But you can keep making false accusations if you like. I believe God’s Word, and not you.

 

[Titus]

Have you not read about King David losing his son because of his sins? The deeper reason his child was taken was because it gave an occasion for the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme (See: 2 Samuel 12:13-15). So his sins had a consequence upon his own child by God intervening Himself.

Furthermore, Levi paid tithes in Abraham. For Levi was still yet in Abraham’s loins when Melchisedec met him (See: Hebrews 7:9-10).
This means we are a part of our parents.

Jeremiah 32:18 (KJB)
“Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the Lord of hosts, is his name,”

Jeremiah 32:18 (NLT)
“You show unfailing love to thousands, but you also bring the consequences of one generation’s sin upon the next.”

It does not mean that the children pay for their parent’s sins but that they are facing the punishment or after effects of what their parents did wrong (Like with King David).

But we are talking about Federal Headship of Adam.
Your father is not the representative of the whole entire human race. Adam is.
Jesus is the last Adam who is to represent the change in which representative you want to be under.

In Adam… you will die.
There is no life in Adam (despite your claim that there is innocence and life there).
There is only life in Jesus Christ (The last Adam).
You can only do good in Christ.
Jesus Himself said there is none good but God (Matthew 19:17).

Also, if we are completely autonomous and separate from our parents and we are in no way related to our parents, you may be on to something. But we are connected to our parents, and their wrong choices can effect us in bad ways more than we can imagine. A parent who is a drunk can pass on his bad habit to his child. A parent who smokes around his child can give them lung cancer. The child may not have a real choice because they are being provided for and have nowhere else to turn. Sin has a way of spreading like a cancer. This is what Adam has done upon humanity. To deny this is to deny the world around you. Find me a perfect and innocent person who does only good who has not accepted Jesus Christ. If you do… then you would be right or correct. If one is truly innocent and good, then only good fruit will abound. This is why we need Jesus because on our own we cannot do good without the Lord Jesus working in us. You may deceive yourself that people can be good and do good without the Lord Jesus and be innocent in Adam, but that would only be your own delusion, my friend.

But you can keep making false accusations if you like. I believe God’s Word, and not you.

Do you have selective memory?
I agree that the consequences of past generations cause future generations to suffer.
The consequence of Adam's sin is that all die physically. Dying physically does not make any gulity of Adam's sin.
This last response proves you believe it is just for God to punish your children for
Your sins! That's evil not just.

(a) sin or
(b) the sin nature
Which was passed from Adam unto His descendants.

Granted, I do lean more towards a sin nature being passed down, but I believe in both possibilities (in regards to Original Sin)

I believe we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin not the sin itself.
Your misinterpretation of scriptures has innocent babies made sinners because of someone else's sins. The god you serve burns babies in hell. That is NOT the
God we read about in the Bible.

This doctrine is bias.
What about the good Adam did? Why was that not passed down?
Only the sins of our parents are passed but why not also the good?
Why would saved Christian parents not pass to their children a upright nature?

What you have ignored the entire discussion is Adam's nature when he sinned.
Adam's nature was upright, created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26.
Adam sinned with a nature that was upright not depraved!!!
That is exactly the same nature we have when we sin!

NO NEED FOR A INNATE DEPRAVED NATURE TO SIN! Adam sinned with an upright nature and so do we.

 

[Titus]

Find me a perfect and innocent person who does only good who has not accepted Jesus Christ

Babies.
Now you are really showing you are a calvinist, despite claiming you are not.
You must believe babies are wicked.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you have selective memory?
I agree that the consequences of past generations cause future generations to suffer.
The consequence of Adam's sin is that all die physically. Dying physically does not make any gulity of Adam's sin.
This last response proves you believe it is just for God to punish your children for
Your sins! That's evil not just.

I believe we suffer the consequences of Adam's sin not the sin itself.
Your misinterpretation of scriptures has innocent babies made sinners because of someone else's sins. The god you serve burns babies in hell. That is NOT the
God we read about in the Bible.

This doctrine is bias.
What about the good Adam did? Why was that not passed down?
Only the sins of our parents are passed but why not also the good?
Why would saved Christian parents not pass to their children a upright nature?

What you have ignored the entire discussion is Adam's nature when he sinned.
Adam's nature was upright, created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26.
Adam sinned with a nature that was upright not depraved!!!
That is exactly the same nature we have when we sin!

NO NEED FOR A INNATE DEPRAVED NATURE TO SIN! Adam sinned with an upright nature and so do we.

I explained what I did. Your just not getting it. That’s okay.
The Lord will reveal all things in time.

Moving on beyond my discussion with you on this topic.

May the Lord’s peace and goodness shine upon you greatly.

 

[Titus]

I explained what I did. Your just not getting it. That’s okay.
The Lord will reveal all things in time.

Moving on beyond my discussion with you on this topic.

May the Lord’s peace and goodness shine upon you greatly.

I understand, Your mind is like concrete; all mixed up and set.

 

[Titus]

If it be true, Original Sin, this corrupt sinful nature passed down from parent to child then,....
Why would it also not be true that Saved christian parents with their nature being born again,
Would not pass this godly nature on to their children? This doctrine is biased.

It is simple to see Paul does not believe our innate nature is tainted with Adam's sin.
Paul does not believe Adam's sin is charged to us.
Romans 5:12 Is presumed by reformed theology to be the passage that proves OS.

Romans 5:12,
-Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men,  because all sinned. NKJV

If Paul was teaching Adam's sin was imputed to everyone it would read,

Romans 5:12,
-Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world and death through sin and thus death spread to all men, because Adam sinned. (Perverted translation)

It's easy to see Paul does not teach we inherit Adam's sin or his imaginary depraved nature.

Paul really says we are sinners because all have sinned.
Paul is putting the blame on every individual who sins not Adam's sin imputed to us.

 

[face2face]

Genesis 1:27,
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female God created them.

Ecclesiastes 7:29,
Truly, this only I have found; That God made man upright(righteous), But they have sought out many schemes.

Below are face2face irrational ramblings,

Face2face says There is no good in mans nature then contradicts himself...



2Timothy 2:23-25,
-but avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife,.
Proverbs 26:4,5
-do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you be like him.
-Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Clearly, you have a comprehension problem, is that fair to say?

What did Paul mean when he said 'In my flesh dwells on good thing"

Let's keep it simple for now shall we Titus?

F2F

 

[face2face]

I understand, Your mind is like concrete; all mixed up and set.

Ah you're one of those!

 

[face2face]

If it be true, Original Sin, this corrupt sinful nature passed down from parent to child then,....
Why would it also not be true that Saved christian parents with their nature being born again,
Would not pass this godly nature on to their children? This doctrine is biased.

It is simple to see Paul does not believe our innate nature is tainted with Adam's sin.
Paul does not believe Adam's sin is charged to us.
Romans 5:12 Is presumed by reformed theology to be the passage that proves OS.

It's easy to see Paul does not teach we inherit Adam's sin or his imaginary depraved nature.

Paul really says we are sinners because all have sinned.
Paul is putting the blame on every individual who sins not Adam's sin imputed to us.

This is true.
We inherited a nature that has a bias toward sin and Adam's sin is not charged down through the ages but because all people sin we are no different to him for the wages of sin is death - we receive what we earn in the flesh.

So understanding this fact why did God raise up a son in the line of sinful man and in sin's flesh?

“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:3 cmp Hebrews 2:14-17

Very few Christians can answer the question correctly.

F2F

 

[Titus]

Ah you're one of those!

Implying I'm not a good person? Bible Highlighter is one of the members on here that I have some respect for.

I love him and hope to open his eyes with the true revelation of God. Not doctrines that started with men like Augustine.

I don't see any point making discussion with you because you are irrational.
Now, if you admit that you have not been making sense and have contradicted yourself, then I will know you have a honest heart. Then I would definitely like to discuss with you Bible.

Some poor folks cannot see they are irrational, and this is unfortunate also that is not necessarily their fault.
I dont know your mind. I can only go by what you have said. So far you are not making sense.
I've tried to point this out to you. But you seem to not realize your mistakes.

 

[face2face]

Implying I'm not a good person? Bible Highlighter is one of the members on here that I have some respect for.

I love him and hope to open his eyes with the true revelation of God. Not doctrines that started with men like Augustine.

I don't see any point making discussion with you because you are irrational.
Now, if you admit that you have not been making sense and have contradicted yourself, then I will know you have a honest heart. Then I would definitely like to discuss with you Bible.

Some poor folks cannot see they are irrational, and this is unfortunate also that is not necessarily their fault.
I dont know your mind. I can only go by what you have said. So far you are not making sense.
I've tried to point this out to you. But you seem to not realize your mistakes.

What you see as contradiction I see as the wonder in this subject. You're not able to see how human nature is spoken of as being sin and yet not sin. You lack the wisdom which the Bible offers you - it's possible you want to force upon the text your own understanding which seems to be the case.

One thing is clear to all...you seem unable to answer the hard questions rather avoiding them for some misconceived advantage.

F2F

 

[Titus]

What you see as contradiction I see as the wonder in this subject. You're not able to see how human nature is spoken of as being sin and yet not sin. You lack the wisdom which the Bible offers you - it's possible you want to force upon the text your own understanding which seems to be the case.

One thing is clear to all...you seem unable to answer the hard questions rather avoiding them for some misconceived advantage.

F2F

Matthew 22:29,
-Jesus answered and said to them, You do err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

 

[face2face]

Matthew 22:29,
-Jesus answered and said to them, You do err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Romans 8:3...still waiting for your profound answer.

Why was it required for Christ to be raised up in sin's flesh?

 

[Titus]

Romans 8:3...still waiting for your profound answer.

Why was it required for Christ to be raised up in sin's flesh?

Hello, your question is based on a false premise.

You are not consistent in what you say, as we see below,

"There is no good thing in human nature"..

Who said the nature was wicked?

The nature of itself is not evil

You consistently are inconsistent and contradictory in your explanations.

The logical validity of an argument is a function of its internal consistency.
Therefore your argument is invalid.

 

[face2face]

​

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart (mind) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?​

I've found this verse to a great comfort over the years, strange I know. The Spirit Word of God can be known and is known but the depth of evil in the thinking of the flesh cannot!!! - just when you think you have seen its potential you are shocked with even greater evil "who can know it?"

Also Psalms 103:14 for the same reason.

"for he knows how we are formed, he (God) remembers that we are dust"

Our inherited nature, while of itself is not sin, the flesh is spoken of as being sin because sin has dominion over it. Flesh becomes synonymous with sin because its latent potential to transgress God's Laws.

1 John 2:16

For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

A verse which leaves nothing out!

In the flesh, that is our nature, dwells no good thing - it's propensity to sin is always dormant but ready to bne awaken at a seconds notice... it is like a crouching lion.

So this flesh nature when given thought and mind becomes the thinking of the flesh which as we know is the enmity against God Paul's speaks to in Romans 6,7&8.

Congrats on a good OP and thread!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Hello, your question is based on a false premise.

You are not consistent in what you say, as we see below,





You consistently are inconsistent and contradictory in your explanations.

The logical validity of an argument is a function of its internal consistency.
Therefore your argument is invalid.

Wow that smacks of avoidance - lost a lot of credibility on that post!

It's possible the question will take you well outside of you religious learning.

Again...from another direction

“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.

Okay, so we both agree on the first part - the flesh could not fulfill the requirements of the Law, as Paul provides his personal example in Romans 7, that covetousness got him every time, and thereby all the law was broken. Law righteous and holy - flesh weak!

Now covetousness is born out of our flesh nature - its a latent desire and as James states, the flesh can never be satisfied because of its lusts.

So precisely how did God "condemn sin" in the body of His Son?

@everyone else - feel free to have a go!

F2F

p.s did the colour coding help?

 

[Peterlag]

Original Sin
(Adam’s sin or the sin nature
passed down upon mankind)
in the Bible:​

Genesis 8:21 - Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.​

​

Job 15:14-16 - What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous? If God puts not trust in His saints, and the heavens are not pure in His sight, how much less man, who is abominable and filthy, who drinks iniquity like water!​

​

Psalms 14:1-3 - The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.​

​

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.​

​

Psalms 58:1-5 - Do you indeed speak righteousness, you silent ones? Do you judge uprightly, you sons of men? No, in heart you work wickedness; you weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.​

​

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?​

​

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

Ephesians 2:1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.”​

​

1 Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”​

​

Hebrews 7:9​

“And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.”​

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My point about being born again is the same in relation to Original Sin. We die physically because of Adam’s sin. We are made alive spiritually by Christ. The same is true with regards to our physical birth and our spiritual birth. One is natural and the other is spiritual.

Ezekiel 18 is talking about how the one who sins shall die right away. This is not in reference to how Adam’s sin corrupting mankind with a sin nature and making them to be sinners (with them eventually having a mortal end or death). For Romans 5:19 says by one man’s disobedience many were MADE sinners. I believe that. You don’t believe it. It’s just that simple.

Anyways, I am not hear to convince you. Only God’s Word can do that. I am not going to keep debating back and forth with you on this. I made my case with the Word of God already. Let the reader decide for themselves by looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word and by praying to the LORD on it.

Eze 18 refutes the idea of one person being made resposible for another persons' sin as OS tries to make all accountable/responsible for Adam's sin. Yet God refutes OS by showing each person is responsible for his OWN sin. The proverb in Eze 18:2 was an attack against God's justice in trying to make one person (captive generation) accoutable for another person's (father's) sins. On judgement day, each man will be judged according to his own works (Rev 20:13) his own deeds (Rom 2:6) and not according to another man's deeds. In courtrooms today, people go to court over their own deeds....one person does not go to trial and receive a sentencing for another person who robbed a bank or committed murder. Should you go to court and be held accountable/responsible and forced to pay a hefty fine for another person who was doing the speeding? If so, then there is a major INJUSTICE going on in the court system. This INJUSTICE does not take place with God either. This INJUSTICE exists with OS though.

 

[face2face]

Hello, your question is based on a false premise.

You are not consistent in what you say, as we see below,

Two verses in which you stumble

Romans 8:3

“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.

Christ raised up in sins flesh; an important work of God in putting to death, death!

Hebrews 2:14

Since the children have flesh and blood, he (Jesus) too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

A number of things going on in this verse Titus.

1. Your flesh and blood was his flesh and blood (same nature)
2. God destroyed the power of death in Jesus Christ but how? It's termed "devil" because the power of death falsely accusers us against God and if you read the following verses you will see "those in slavery to death" Christ saved in his own body.

So the question is this Titus

A few questions for you to ponder:

1. What is the power of death?
2. How did God break it in his Son?
3. When it states "him who holds the power of death" what is being personified?

Let's see how you go!

F2F

Romans 6:23 will help!

 

[face2face]

@Titus

Are you any closer to working out the nature of man?