Original Sin (or sin nature) in the Bible:

[Titus]

Paul settles this rather easily when he said "the first man was of the dust of the earth" in other words his nature was corruptible from the beginning and had a nature which had the propensity to sin. His mind wasn't infected until his conscience was defiled...but that has nothing to do with his nature which was always of the earth. Adam could never be immortalized in that earthy nature so the argument is mute and pointless.
F2F

Correct, in moral capacity this is true....but not in his nature! Temptation to sin comes from flesh nature!


28:15 You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.

True - blameless... speaking to the King of Tyre (not sure why you used that reference?) the King held a privileged position with God and Israel until he became proud.



Correct - man is a standing creature with the capacity to morally discern God's Words.



"Very good" simply relates to the state of His creation - not perfect! It was pleasing for Him to see the work of His Hands. If you are trying to force some meaning on Adams nature as being pure or perfect - this would be a failure on your part.



This is the Spiritual Mind being developed in us. "There is no good thing in human nature"...it has a mind of its own and from it men are defiled - reason for Christ being crucified was to crucify the flesh and its lusts.

Galatians 5:24-26 – Keeping in step with the Spirit. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.



Correct - man was created for the purpose of being a righteous being, but this does not relate to the flesh nature...."Let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus!"

Try again if you like.

F2F

You are are not proving your position. You have studied a theology, and are weaving it into the scriptures. Nowhere does any of these passages say "flesh nature" is depraved.

I was right about you, you believe the natural word, material word is by nature corrupt.
GIVE SCRIPTURE NOT YOUR THEOLOGY. That makes you a follower of Gnosticism.

Explain what you mean by flesh nature? You need to define it with SCRIPTURE.

Your response to Genesis 1:31 below,

Very good simply relates to the state of His creation - not perfect! It was pleasing for Him to see the work of His Hands

You say Gods creation is corrupt when you refer to mans nature.
You can say that all you want but the Bible says the opposite.
God teaches we are good. Our nature must be good.
Where did God say his creation was corrupt? He did not, you did.

Genesis 1:31,
-Then God saw everything that He has made and indeed it was very good.
You contradicted this passage by saying mans nature is not good.
You are not speaking as the Bible speaks, but some theology you believe in.

. "There is no good thing in human nature"...it has a mind of its own and from it men are defiled

You are contradicting what Gods word said. You say men are defiled from their own nature THAT GOD GAVE THEM!!! O, boy! Now, tell me are babies also defiled?

You said of Adam his nature is defiled also, below,

Correct in moral capacity this is true alone but not in nature!

O, brother, you don't read this in these scriptures!!! You have a theology that has a philosophy that you insert into the text.
SO, ACCORDING TO FACE2FACE GOD CREATED ADAM WITH A FLESH NATURE THAT WAS WICKED, DEFILED. Sir, you are a Gnostic! That is crazy, to believe God created Adam to be wicked by nature.
That makes God evil and unjust. God created us evil by nature then condemns us for being wicked! O, brother.

This next quote below is a contradiction. You are not making sense Sir,

Correct - man was create for the purpose of being a righeous being but this does not relate to the flesh nature....

Do you listen to yourself?
You are telling me, God created man to be righteous, then contradict yourself and say God created Adam with a nature that is unrighteous, wicked, depraved, defiled. O, brother.

So let me get this straight, according to you God wants us to be righteous but gave us a defiled nature.
Um? that is too hard to swallow.

You said of Ezekiel 28:15, below,
-You were perfect in your ways from the DAY you were CREATED. till inquity was found in you.

28:15 You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.

True - blameless speaking to the King of Tyre (not sure why you used that reference?)

Blameless speaking to the king of Tyre is your response.
Do you ignore passages that don't fit your theology?

What does the passage say? I'll tell you what it doesn't say,
Quote: "blameless speaking to the king of Tyre".
That must be what your doctrinal teacher's explain when they read this verse.

Now I just let the Bible say what it says without my interpretation.

Ezekiel 28:15
-You were perfect in your ways from the DAY YOU WERE CREATED.

You understand the writer said perfect from birth? From the day he was created.
That is not what you said Sir. You need to start believing the Bible. Throw away your presuppositional bias. Empty your mind and just read the passage.

 

[Titus]

You couldn't discern Paul's teaching in my response?

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47

Paul knew his nature was corruptible from the beginning.

F2F

Ok, God created Paul with a corrupt nature because according to you tbe material world is defiled.
This makes no sense but you said it. God makes our very nature wicked, defiled then punishes us for being a depraved sinner by nature. O, brother I dont know how you believe this gobbledy gook.

 

[face2face]

Ok, God created Paul with a corrupt nature because according to you tbe material world is defiled.
This makes no sense but you said it. God makes our very nature wicked, defiled then punishes us for being a depraved sinner by nature. O, brother I dont know how you believe this gobbledy gook.

Ah I see your problem now - I wondered where you were coming from.
Jesus had the exact same nature as you...absolutely no difference, in fact it's the same substance as my three dogs! Who said the nature was wicked? The Scripture teaches the nature is the source of temptation and sin which is true enough and Christ was in agony daily overcoming it...until he allowed His Father to crucify it. Have you read James chapter 1? The source of temptation and the analogy of sin being conceived and it brings forth death? Again - the origin of sin is in the flesh as per Romans 8:1-3
Why do you think God choose to raise up a son in Sin's Flesh?
Surely you know right?

 

[face2face]

You are are not proving your position. You have studied a theology, and are weaving it into the scriptures. Nowhere does any of these passages say "flesh nature" is depraved.

Nature is the source of sin - end of story! The carnal mind is enmity against God and that mind is connected to our flesh and all its desires. Romans 6, 7 & 8 all teach this comprehensibly.

The nature of itself is not evil it's what comes from it which defiles a man

Haven't you read?

"What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

That thinking of the flesh produces wickedness - so you can say sin relates to the flesh because sin has dominion over it - and it cannot be changed or fixed - must be put to death!

I was right about you, you believe the natural word, material word is by nature corrupt.
GIVE SCRIPTURE NOT YOUR THEOLOGY. That makes you a follower of Gnosticism.

Explain what you mean by flesh nature? You need to define it with SCRIPTURE.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7

Flesh is given thought and action produces sin which results in death.

You can't hide from the fact that flesh (our nature) is defiled because of its lusts.

See how Paul speaks in absolutes! Flesh nature cannot submit to God's laws nor can it do so!

Did Adam & Eve submit = No they didn't = their nature was like yours!

Your response to Genesis 1:31 below,

You say Gods creation is corrupt when you refer to mans nature.
You can say that all you want but the Bible says the opposite.
God teaches we are good. Our nature must be good.
Where did God say his creation was corrupt? He did not, you did.

Do you not believe Adam was made of a corruptible substance? That which is flesh returns to dust does it not? Do you believe Adam was made with a special clean nature? One that couldnt sin? He wasnt divine like the Angels! He was made of the earth, earthy! Do you beleive the animals were immortal in the beginning?

Sounds like you have been taught fairy tales?

Genesis 1:31,
-Then God saw everything that He has made and indeed it was very good.
You contradicted this passage by saying mans nature is not good.
You are not speaking as the Bible speaks, but some theology you believe in.


You are contradicting what Gods word said. You say men are defiled from their own nature THAT GOD GAVE THEM!!! O, boy! Now, tell me are babies also defiled?

Babies are not defiled - they are mortal and dying creatures - it's not until they sin do they earn death Romans 6:23!

You said of Adam his nature is defiled also, below,

O, brother, you don't read this in these scriptures!!! You have a theology that has a philosophy that you insert into the text.
SO, ACCORDING TO FACE2FACE GOD CREATED ADAM WITH A FLESH NATURE THAT WAS WICKED, DEFILED. Sir, you are a Gnostic! That is crazy, to believe God created Adam to be wicked by nature.

No flesh can glory in God's presence. right? You believe God made Adam to remain a dying creature? Surely you are intelligent enough to see the bigger picture?

That makes God evil and unjust. God created us evil by nature then condemns us for being wicked! O, brother.

No, that is your thoughts not His - if he wants to make a being a test him that's his pleasure to do so!

This next quote below is a contradiction. You are not making sense Sir,

Do you listen to yourself?
You are telling me, God created man to be righteous, then contradict yourself and say God created Adam with a nature that is unrighteous, wicked, depraved, defiled. O, brother.

Potential boy! Adam wasn't instantly knowledgeble of God's way's - he had to be taught!

So let me get this straight, according to you God wants us to be righteous but gave us a defiled nature.
Um? that is too hard to swallow.

Swallow it! It's a tough pill to swallow but the truth isn't easy!

You said of Ezekiel 28:15, below,
-You were perfect in your ways from the DAY you were CREATED. till inquity was found in you.

Blameless speaking to the king of Tyre is your response.
Do you ignore passages that don't fit your theology?

What does the passage say? I'll tell you what it doesn't say,
Quote: "blameless speaking to the king of Tyre".
That must be what your doctrinal teacher's explain when they read this verse.

Now I just let the Bible say what it says without my interpretation.

Ezekiel 28:15
-You were perfect in your ways from the DAY YOU WERE CREATED.

You understand the writer said perfect from birth? From the day he was created.
That is not what you said Sir. You need to start believing the Bible. Throw away your presuppositional bias. Empty your mind and just read the passage.

It's clear your understanding of Ezekiel is way off the mark!

What is Ezekiel 28 all about? in your mind?

This will be interesting.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Here is the falsehood adopted by Christians wholesale around the world. When they see someone who die's, a believer wants to think that a part of that persons remains alive, however, all the Scriptural evidence teaches the fact that they are totally dead.

The core doctrine that teaches man is mortal (completely and utterly) is discarded for the fanciful notion that when a person dies their immortal essence waft's up to Heaven to wait to be reunited with the old bodies, is completely wrong teaching.

Honestly!

What does the Christian think when God said "In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return"

I mean where in Genesis is the wafting essence taught?

We are made out of two things only!

1. Flesh bodies (inert)
2. Breathe (returns upon death Eccl 12:7)

Nowhere, is an after life experienced, after death. The whole point of the resurrection is precisely "bringing those in the grave back from the dead"

Christians have been sold a lie...and Hollywood and Apostate Christianity have racked in the $$$$ using it.

F2F

 

[Titus]

Who said the nature was wicked?

The nature of itself is not evil it's what comes from it which defiles a man

 

[Titus]

"There is no good thing in human nature"..

 

[Titus]

Face2Face, I'm not interested in hearing anything else from you,.
You are irrational, filled with gobbledygook.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It absolutely fits the context.

Yet, you did not quote any context in Ephesians to support your claim (In light of Ephesians 2:3 saying, “…were by nature children of wrath”).

Calvinism what you are believing in and promoting whether you admit it or not, never fits in any context.

Original Sin is not Calvinism. We only have your claim to that idea with no actual evidence to support it. In fact, if a person is searching for the truth, they can just Google the Origins of Original Sin for themselves and see through your false facade. They will see your claim is simply a hollow one. Moreover, the Bible teaches that we inherited a sin nature from Adam and or that his one time sin had made many to be sinners. Just read the Bible and believe it. For right now you don’t believe Romans 5:19 when it says, “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,…”. You see sin as done by the individual only. Yet, the Bible tells me by one’s man’s disobedience many were MADE sinners. How exactly do you believe these words in Scripture? Is this where you have to try and change the text again because you don’t like what it says?

There has to be a point where you have to stop twisting the Bible to fit your own agenda or thinking.
The Bible does not conform to our thoughts, but we are to conform our thoughts to what the Bible says.

Not one letter in the TULIP is Biblical.

If you were to search for the five points of Calvinism they mention nothing about Original Sin. Original Sin is generally not mentioned in TULIP when Calvinists refer to their five points. It is only when Calvinists talk about Original Sin that they additionally include it in their Total Depravity doctrine (i.e. the “T” in TULIP). Actually, Total Depravity is not a teaching that is a part of the Bible. Although people are partially depraved, they are not totally depraved to the point whereby they cannot respond to God’s grace. While the Calvinist claims Original Sin (OS) is a part of their doctrine of Total Depravity, OS is really not a Calvinist doctrine but it is a bible doctrine. Calvinists also believe in the Trinity. It does not invalidate that teaching, though (Just because they believe in it). So guilt by association is not always true. Granted, I have no love for the TULIP teaching from Calvinists but to falsely say that Original Sin is a Calvinist doctrine means you are either uninformed, or you simply like to try and make assumptions that are not true because it sounds good to you (or you were impressed by somebody’s article or claim that is not backed up by the facts).

Since Adam had no imaginary sin nature when he commited sin. Explain why Adam sinned?

Adam was influenced by Eve to sin and Eve was influenced by the serpent to sin.
We are influenced by a sin nature. Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
So we are all on the same playing field.

Then you will understand that is why, and how all of mankind sin. No need for a sin nature to commit sin! JUST ASK ADAM!!!

That’s silly. I cannot ask Adam because he is no long alive to ask such a question.

 

[Titus]

Original Sin is not Calvinism. We only have your claim to that idea.

There is zero evidence that this doctrine i.e. Orginal Sin existed before Augustine.
I'm not claiming this doctrine exists in scripture. You claim it has always been taught.
The burden of proof is on you.

Ephesians 2:3,
-among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

If I find one person, just one in the scriptures that says their nature is righteous before they are born again, then "inborn sinful nature" is a misinterpretation of the verses that supposedly teach that mans nature is inherently depraved.

Romans 2:13-15,
-for not the hearers of the law are just but the DOERS of the law will be justified;

-for when gentiles,who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Here you have gentiles obeying Gods laws by their NATURE. That of course is impossible if mans nature is only depraved, sinful. These gentiles would not have any desire to obey Gods law if they had a sinful inborn nature. According to Paul their nature was good, as also their conscience.

15 -Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.

These verses prove Paul did not believe that we have a inborn sinful nature.
Paul does not believe in Orginal Sin.
Bible Highlighter, the verses that you claim show man's nature is inherently sinful are being perverted into a unbiblical doctrine that Paul never taught.

If Paul taught as you claim he taught that our nature is sinful.
Then Paul contradicts himself, for he said these gentiles nature was good.

Romans 2:9-11
-tribulation and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, of the jew first and also the greek;
-But glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the jew first and also to the greek.
-For there is no partiality with God.

 

[Titus]

In fact, if a person is searching for the truth, they can just Google the Origins of Original Sin for themselves and see through your false facad

Yes, the internet Google search will always guide us into Biblical truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is zero evidence that this doctrine i.e. Orginal Sin existed before Augustine.
I'm not claiming this doctrine exists in scripture. You claim it has always been taught.
The burden of proof is on you.

And I already proven Original Sin with Scripture at the beginning of this thread.
Your unbelief in those verses does not undo what they say.

In fact, lets look at again at Scripture and compare it to your unbelief in God’s Word on this topic.

Psalms 51:5 - “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
> But you don’t believe this verse plainly. You don’t believe we are molded (shaped) in iniquity because you believe we are innocent at birth.

Proverbs 22:15 says,
“Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”
> But you don’t believe this verse fully but only partially because you see humanity as not tainted by what Adam did.

Genesis 8:21 says,
“…for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;..”
> But you don’t believe this verse whole heartedly but only partially because you see humanity as not tainted by what Adam did.

Job 15:14 says,
“What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?”
> But you don’t believe this verse whole heartedly because it asks a question you believe is impossible.

Ephesians 2:3,
-among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

If I find one person, just one in the scriptures that says their nature is righteous before they are born again, then "inborn sinful nature" is a misinterpretation of the verses that supposedly teach that mans nature is inherently depraved.

Romans 2:13-15,
-for not the hearers of the law are just but the DOERS of the law will be justified;

This is bad Hermeneutics. You fail to recognize or rightly divide the difference between verses referring to when one is an unbeliever vs. when one is a believer.

Ephesians 2:3 is describing when we used to be unbelievers.
Romans 2:13 is in reference to doing the righteous aspect of the Law (like the moral law that the Gentiles were able to partake of by nature). This does not mean the Gentiles were perfectly keeping the Moral Law By any means. Believers are to keep God’s commands as a part of being justified by faith because all of the New Testament is given to believers to trust or believe in. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Jesus even agreed with the lawyer that to keep the two greatest commandments was a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Granted, our focus on living holy as a part of entering the Kingdom can only happen if we are first saved by God’s grace and mercy through Jesus Christ.

-for when gentiles,who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Here you have gentiles obeying Gods laws by their NATURE. That of course is impossible if mans nature is only depraved, sinful. These gentiles would not have any desire to obey Gods law if they had a sinful inborn nature. According to Paul their nature was good, as also their conscience.

No. This means that they were able to keep certain aspects of the Moral Law. It does not mean they kept the Moral Law perfectly. This would mean you believe that unbelievers in Christ are able to keep the Moral Law perfectly. If such were the case, that is pure insanity and you don’t know people or the Bible very well.

15 -Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.

Right, so why would they be accusing one another if the Gentile unbelievers were perfectly keeping the Moral Law?
Turn on the news and you will see the news agency condemning murders, thefts, etcetera. But that does not mean the people at the news station are perfectly keeping God’s moral laws.

Romans 2:9-11
-tribulation and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, of the jew first and also the greek;
-But glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the jew first and also to the greek.
-For there is no partiality with God.

Jesus says, “there is none good but one, that is, God:” (Matthew 19:17).
It’s only a person abiding in God who can do good. So any good we do it is the LORD working through us.
People of this world can imitate that which is good but their motives are selfish and not based on doing good for the LORD.
So a person really doing good is surrendering one’s life to the LORD and seeking His mercy, and doing His will.
All those who appear to do good who don’t know Christ are merely play acting at doing good.
They really are not doing good according to the LORD.
This truth should be obvious to any Bible reader (Who accepts the Bible for what it says).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, the internet Google search will always guide us into Biblical truth.

Google is merely a tool that can be used for either good or bad.
It’s up to a person to do their own homework properly.
A person can even find Bible verses with Google. So yes. You can be guided into Bible truth by using a Google search.

 

[Titus]

Bible Highlighter, you moved the goal post. Not once did I EVER refer to keeping Gods law PERFECT. You inserted this idea of perfect law keeping into my mouth! This idea you are trying to pass off on me, that I am teaching the gentiles kept the law perfectly is ABSURD!!!

Nowhere did I suggest this.

You tried to make this the subject to distract from the fact that Paul teaches these gentiles nature is good, NATURE is what we are discussing NOT SINLESS PERFECTION!!!

Is there scripture showing men have a good nature, rather than this supposed innate sin nature as Bible Highlighter teaches. Yes, Paul speaks of it. And Bible Highlighter is trying to change the discussion. It is Impossible to be perfect. No one is perfect except Jesus! I NEVER TAUGHT THIS, NEVER ONCE BROUGHT THIS SUBJECT UP. BIBLE HIGHLIGHTER BROUGHT IT UP.

What I really discussed is the nature of man, read my post below. The bible in fact teaches that man's nature is not innately wicked as Bible Highlighter teaches.

Romans 2:13-15,
-for not the hearers of the law are just but the DOERS of the law will be justified;

-for when gentiles,who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these although not having the law, are a law to themselves

Then Bible Highlighter accuses me of teaching on perfect law keeping. Which has nothing to do with what I said or the subject of this thread.

No. This means that they were able to keep certain aspects of the Moral Law. It does not mean they kept the Moral Law perfectly.

Never said anybody keeps Gods law perfectly. That is ABSURD. Only Jesus was perfect.

Paul does not believe in a innate sinful nature, otherwise he would have never said these gentiles nature was good. Paul never contradicts himself. This proves where Bible Highlighter claims Paul teaches a innate sinful nature. His interpretation of said verses are being misinterpreted by him.

Cornelius is another example of an alien sinner that by his nature did good,

Acts 10:1-2,
-There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who FEARED GOD with all his household, who GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY TO THE PEOPLE AND PRAYED TO GOD ALWAYS.

This was Cornelius' nature before he was born again!
The Bible does not teach we have from birth a wicked nature.

God has no favoritism towards man. God is no respecter of persons.
Every man has been created with the same nature.
Another example that our nature is not innately sinful is Jesus' teaching about the sinless nature of children.
Matthew 18:3,4
-And said, Assuredly , I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
-Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Bible Highlighter and others that teach this doctrine of inborn sinful nature have Jesus here saying,

"Unless ye are converted and become as these little sinners, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven"

Conclusion: What is really taught about the nature of man in the Bible is, mankind, is NOT innately sinful by nature.

Jesus did not teach Original sin, Matthew 18:3-4.
Paul did not teach Original sin Romans 2:13-15.

Therefore Jesus nor Paul believes in a inherited Sin nature.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bible Highlighter, you moved the goal post. Not once did I EVER refer to keeping Gods law PERFECT. You inserted this idea of perfect law keeping into my mouth! This idea you are trying to pass off on me, that I am teaching the gentiles kept the law perfectly is ABSURD!!!

We both have different views on what Sinless Perfection is.
I see Sinless Perfection as applying to only believers.
But I am not sure you how you define Sinless Perfection.
You may see it as overcoming all sin or keeping all of God's commands perfectly.
I believe a Christian can be perfect in certain areas of their life.
The Bible talks about perfection involving certain particular things in our walk with the LORD.
For example: When Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect... it is in context to loving your enemies, and do good unto them, and turning the other cheek, etcetera.

Unbelievers are not even capable of doing any kind of good because a person needs to have God abiding in them in order for them to do truly good. For it is God who works in believers to do good. It's why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. It was the LORD working the good works through them under their free will cooperation of surrendering to the Lord. The grace of God gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). The grace of God can be like when the woman who anointed Jesus feet with her tears and kissed them. She loved much because she was forgiven much. Yet, I also see the grace of God as Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus is the One who is going to help us to do good and for Him to move through our life doing such good things. God's goodness flows through believers and not unbelievers. Paul says in Ephesians 2:2 that we were children of disobedience as in reference to our old unbelieving lives.

Ask unbelievers if they lie, or have lustful thoughts. Most unbelievers swear or take the Lord's name in vain and they don't care. These things will condemn them. So they are not good by nature. Everyone does these evil things. So it has nothing to do with Sinless Perfection. They are not even at the starting gate of righteousness by being first saved by God's grace let alone do they have the capacity to do good. They may imitate what is good, and they may imitate love, but they also do evil and selfish things, as well (Leaving God out of the picture or with them having a distorted picture of God that goes outside of His Word).

What I really discussed is the nature of man, read my post below. The bible in fact teaches that man's nature is not innately wicked as Bible Highlighter teaches.

I already showed you verses already proving that man's nature is corrupted or tainted but you simply decided to not properly explain them. I just read such verses and believe them. You apparently don't like what those verses say and so you either ignore them or you seek to change them. Therein lies the difference between us on this topic.

Then Bible Highlighter accuses me of teaching on perfect law keeping. Which has nothing to do with what I said or the subject of this thread.

I don't think you know unbelievers that well. They do sinful things all the time. Why? Because they are tainted by Adam's sin. Romans says by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners. You simply don't believe that.

Paul does not believe in a innate sinful nature, otherwise he would have never said these gentiles nature was good. Paul never contradicts himself. This proves where Bible Highlighter claims Paul teaches a innate sinful nature. His interpretation of said verses are being misinterpreted by him.

Again, I provided verses that you did not address that refutes your false belief here.

Cornelius is another example of an alien sinner that by his nature did good,

Acts 10:1-2,
-There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who FEARED GOD with all his household, who GAVE ALMS GENEROUSLY TO THE PEOPLE AND PRAYED TO GOD ALWAYS.

One short sequence of the timeline of Cornelius' life before he received the Spirit and was saved by the gospel does not prove that he did not live in disobedience at an early point in his life. In fact, Romans says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So Cornelius did sin. He was a child of wrath by nature before he started giving alms and before he prayed to God.

This was Cornelius' nature before he was born again!
The Bible does not teach we have from birth a wicked nature.

This again is insane. The Bible repeatedly teaches we were corrupt. Ephesians basically says we were disobedience before coming to Christ (See: Ephesians 2:2). We walked according to the course of this world and according to Satan before coming to Christ.

God has no favoritism towards man. God is no respecter of persons.
Every man has been created with the same nature.
Another example that our nature is not innately sinful is Jesus' teaching about the sinless nature of children.
Matthew 18:3,4
-And said, Assuredly , I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
-Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said children are of the Kingdom. But is Jesus referring to all children? Jesus was speaking to Jews. In fact, Jesus sent to Jews who should have been hearing God's instructions like Proverbs 22:15 in that they were to not spare the rod of correction to drive away foolishness within their hearts. So I don't believe Jesus was referring to all Gentile children in the fact that many of them did not know about Proverbs 22:15.

As for Matthew 18:3-4:

This is in reference to how children are generally more open to teaching and guidance from their parents than say an adult person is. Adults are set in their ways and they can be hard to teach at times. So they must be converted like having the mindset like a child in believing what God's Word says. Most Christians today speak against what the Bible says in my experience. So they are not just reading and believing all of their Bible at face value because they have grown up preconceived man made beliefs of what they think is correct. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts.

Bible Highlighter and others that teach this doctrine of inborn sinful nature have Jesus here saying,

"Unless ye are converted and become as these little sinners, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven"

This is a false accusation. You are putting words in my mouth of what Jesus actually said (Which is wrong).

Conclusion: What is really taught about the nature of man in the Bible is, mankind, is NOT innately sinful by nature.

Jesus did not teach Original sin, Matthew 18:3-4.
Paul did not teach Original sin Romans 2:13-15.

Therefore Jesus nor Paul believes in a inherited Sin nature.

You are ignoring other verses at the expense of others.
Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:41), therefore proving that something happened to mankind in that he is not innocent and good on his own to obey.
Paul said we were by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and we were sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2).
Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Paul said in Adam all die, but in Christ, all shall be made alive.
This shows that being in Adam... there is death.
If babies were 100% innocent then they should not technically be capable of dying.
But the wages of sin is death.
Granted, you may say that the Savior who is sinless died, but He took on our sins in our place so as to save us, though. The spotless Lamb died for our sins. A baby is not dying for anyone's sins if they die. So we must conclude that Adam brought death into this world because he tainted the creation with his sin. For Scripture says by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners. Again, you simply don't believe the Bible on this topic.

 

[Titus]

We both have different views on what Sinless Perfection is.
I see Sinless Perfection as applying to only believers.
But I am not sure you how you define Sinless Perfection.
You may see it as overcoming all sin or keeping all of God's commands perfectly.
I believe a Christian can be perfect in certain areas of their life.
The Bible talks about perfection involving certain particular things in our walk with the LORD.
For example: When Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect... it is in context to loving your enemies, and do good unto them, and turning the other cheek, etcetera.

Unbelievers are not even capable of doing any kind of good because a person needs to have God abiding in them in order for them to do truly good. For it is God who works in believers to do good. It's why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. It was the LORD working the good works through them under their free will cooperation of surrendering to the Lord. The grace of God gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). The grace of God can be like when the woman who anointed Jesus feet with her tears and kissed them. She loved much because she was forgiven much. Yet, I also see the grace of God as Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus is the One who is going to help us to do good and for Him to move through our life doing such good things. God's goodness flows through believers and not unbelievers. Paul says in Ephesians 2:2 that we were children of disobedience as in reference to our old unbelieving lives.

Ask unbelievers if they lie, or have lustful thoughts. Most unbelievers swear or take the Lord's name in vain and they don't care. These things will condemn them. So they are not good by nature. Everyone does these evil things. So it has nothing to do with Sinless Perfection. They are not even at the starting gate of righteousness by being first saved by God's grace let alone do they have the capacity to do good. They may imitate what is good, and they may imitate love, but they also do evil and selfish things, as well (Leaving God out of the picture or with them having a distorted picture of God that goes outside of His Word).



I already showed you verses already proving that man's nature is corrupted or tainted but you simply decided to not properly explain them. I just read such verses and believe them. You apparently don't like what those verses say and so you either ignore them or you seek to change them. Therein lies the difference between us on this topic.


I don't think you know unbelievers that well. They do sinful things all the time. Why? Because they are tainted by Adam's sin. Romans says by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners. You simply don't believe that.



Again, I provided verses that you did not address that refutes your false belief here.



One short sequence of the timeline of Cornelius' life before he received the Spirit and was saved by the gospel does not prove that he did not live in disobedience at an early point in his life. In fact, Romans says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. So Cornelius did sin. He was a child of wrath by nature before he started giving alms and before he prayed to God.



This again is insane. The Bible repeatedly teaches we were corrupt. Ephesians basically says we were disobedience before coming to Christ (See: Ephesians 2:2). We walked according to the course of this world and according to Satan before coming to Christ.



Jesus said children are of the Kingdom. But is Jesus referring to all children? Jesus was speaking to Jews. In fact, Jesus sent to Jews who should have been hearing God's instructions like Proverbs 22:15 in that they were to not spare the rod of correction to drive away foolishness within their hearts. So I don't believe Jesus was referring to all Gentile children in the fact that many of them did not know about Proverbs 22:15.

As for Matthew 18:3-4:

This is in reference to how children are generally more open to teaching and guidance from their parents than say an adult person is. Adults are set in their ways and they can be hard to teach at times. So they must be converted like having the mindset like a child in believing what God's Word says. Most Christians today speak against what the Bible says in my experience. So they are not just reading and believing all of their Bible at face value because they have grown up preconceived man made beliefs of what they think is correct. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts.



This is a false accusation. You are putting words in my mouth of what Jesus actually said (Which is wrong).


You are ignoring other verses at the expense of others.
Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Matthew 26:41), therefore proving that something happened to mankind in that he is not innocent and good on his own to obey.
Paul said we were by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and we were sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2).
Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Paul said in Adam all die, but in Christ, all shall be made alive.
This shows that being in Adam... there is death.
If babies were 100% innocent then they should not technically be capable of dying.
But the wages of sin is death.
Granted, you may say that the Savior who is sinless died, but He took on our sins in our place so as to save us, though. The spotless Lamb died for our sins. A baby is not dying for anyone's sins if they die. So we must conclude that Adam brought death into this world because he tainted the creation with his sin. For Scripture says by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners. Again, you simply don't believe the Bible on this topic.

What Bible Highlighter conveniently overlooks is Adam!
Yes, of course Cornelius commited sin. But he also had a good nature.
True christians sin, Bible Highlighter would have christians to have a sinful depraved nature.
When in fact, King David sinned, yet the Bible says of him, that David WAS A MAN AFTER GODS OWN HEART!!!
1Samuel 13:14,
-But now your(Saul) kingdom shall not continue. The Lord has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the Lord has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.

Bible Highlighter needs to learn that men can have a heart after God and Not be perfectly sinless!!!

Conclusion, Who sinned first? Adam!
Did Adam when he commited his first sin have a inborn depraved sinful nature? NO!!!
Adam, had a upright meaning RIGHTEOUS nature before he sinned against God!
The Bible teaches NO DEPRAVED SIN NATURE REQUIRED TO SIN!
All men have moments of weakness in our lives and sin.
We all have the exact same nature as Adam. And with that same nature, just like Adam being upright created in Gods image we fall short of the glory of God.

Since Adam did not need this false inborn sinful nature to sin,
It is also true that we do not need this false inborn sinful nature to sin.

Yes, Bible Highlighter ALL CHILDREN GOD LOVES AND WILL SAVE IF THEY DIE BEFORE THEY HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
This is a wicked false doctrine! Bible Highlighter believes God does not save all babies. The only logical conclusion to that thinking is God does not love all babies,

Jesus said children are of the Kingdom. But is Jesus referring to all children?

John 3:16,
-For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes, Jesus loves all babies Bible Highlighter. Calvinism makes folks believe God burns babies who are sinless, innocent. OS, is from satan himself.

 

[face2face]

Face2Face, I'm not interested in hearing anything else from you,.
You are irrational, filled with gobbledygook.

This usually happens when a person has run out of understanding.

 

[face2face]

Adam (made of the earth), Christ (Son of man) and you (in the line of Adam) share the exact same nature.

Romans 8:3: “For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh.

@Titus

Why was it necessary for God to raise up a son in Sinful Flesh?

Place answer here:

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What Bible Highlighter conveniently overlooks is Adam!
Yes, of course Cornelius commited sin. But he also had a good nature.

Cornelius did not become fully good until he obeyed God. God is the one who helps a person to become born again spiritually.
We cannot take any credit for ourselves in being good alone outside of God’s working. Jesus made it clear that God alone is good (Matthew 19:17). So if a believer does good, it is only by the power of God working through them. Sure, a person can imitate good, but that is merely a forgery of the goodness of God and the work He does through believers.

Before we came to Christ, we had a sin nature and we were not good on our own.
Only before the fall, did God create Adam upright. But Adam was tempted to sin by Eve, just as Eve was tempted by the serpent.
So we also are tempted, as well. We are tempted by a sin nature until we crucify the affections and lusts by the power of God and being a new creation in Christ. To not get this is to totally miss the battle in overcoming sin in this life a believer. To not admit we were children of disobedience and we were not good before coming to Christ is the first step.

True christians sin,

No. Christians can potentially sin, but the true Christian is the one who will eventually overcome sin in this life by the power of Jesus Christ. See Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Bible Highlighter would have christians to have a sinful depraved nature.

This is crucified over a period of time in maturing in Christ. Believers are not supposed to remain in having a sinful nature. Their new nature and God will help them to fight and battle in overcoming their old nature from Adam. They that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). Jesus said, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (Luke 9:23). So we are to die daily. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Why would we need to do these things if we were perfect and innocent and good?
Something has tainted mankind. This was Adam, and Christ can set us free from our old life in Adam. This is why we are to offer our bodies as willing sacrifice unto God and be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

 

[face2face]

@Titus

Point 1. Some people believe flesh has sin in it - this is false! If one was to cut off their arm it would not mean they are less sinful.

Point 2. Because our nature is the source of sin i.e Romans 7 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" Paul here is teaching that in his flesh nature lays dormant the wilful desires to transgress God's Law. Now the flesh itself is not sin - it's what comes from that flesh which is sinful i.e Jesus teaching in Mark 7:20 “What comes out of a person is what defiles them".

Point 3. The Scripture knowing the source of sin and understanding flesh to be its source calls flesh sin as in 2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Here Paul is saying God made Christ sin's flesh even though he had no moral sin he was made of that nature because its here God choose to destroy sin's power, which we all know is death Romans 6:23.

Hence, you are confused because I am speaking in Bible terms which Scripture adopts whereas you are speaking in mans terms which is unsupported.

Therefore, understanding how the Bible terms flesh, sin, condemned, corruptible and other similar words is important when looking at this subject.

F2F