OSAS Can Sin all you Want

[marks]

You see how once you begin to view the commandment of the Lord as high ideal only, that can't be kept as written, you then begin to preach your own unwritten high ideals for law of Christ, which ought not be kept?

Put on Christ. The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love. And yes, we can do that.

And everyone demonstrates and reveals themself as they do, and do not, put on Christ.

I'm saying that those who think they have no sin remaining in their behavior and thoughts most likely lack a certain self-awareness, or do not realize what the real walking in the Spirit is like. No fleshy thoughts, feelings, actions.

It's not just a matter of ticking the boxes, I didn't steal, I didn't kill. It's a matter of thinking and acting from the spiritual mind only.

Here you are painting me falsely claiming that we cannot live righteous lives, and that is total nonsense. We require faith, we require humility, we require God to empower us by His Spirit. And all these are His plan for us.

Now you've departed from the law of Christ to your own notions of what sinning against God is:

These are Scripture. We should not diminish what real faith in action is. Sinning against God is when you live from your flesh, which is corrupt, and only has corrupt fruit. We are to live from the Spirit/spirit, the new man, the new creation. Put on the new man. Everything of the old man is condemned and rejected.

Our freedom from sin is found in our justification and reconciliation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Until then, you are seeking to obey the Lord with a carnal mind and corrupted heart, which is indeed impossible for any man on earth to do.

Is this how you judge me?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are declaring the first great commandment to be impossible to keep at any time, because if we can do so now today, then why not tomorrow which may never come?

This is the part you add which I do not say.

I believe we can live righteous lives, not by trying to keep the Law, but by allowing the Holy Spirit to so direct our lives as He transforms us to be like Jesus. And I don't believe that the focus is on the commandments of the Law, but is instead on what love requires in every instance in life, and in faith that is our confidence to live lives loving others, and not serving ourselves.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

What about those sins of pride and worry and impatience? Sins of failing to love God as you should? Failing to love others as you should? What about those?

If you know what is good and you don't do it, that's sin. If it's not of faith - That is sin. What about all of that?

Loving God, loving others, will all your heart, all you are, at all times. Who will stand up to THAT scrutiny?

On the one hand you plainly declare it impossible to keep the great two commandments 'at all times'.

Here you are painting me falsely claiming that we cannot live righteous lives, and that is total nonsense. We require faith, we require humility, we require God to empower us by His Spirit. And all these are His plan for us.

Much love!

But then seem to declare you are living righteously with freedom from sinning.

Plainly you need to reconcile your own words.

You can do so by defining living righteous lives free from sinning.

Or, as I said, is that only high ideal to you, but not practically possible?

Or are you saying we can do righteousness only from tie to time, while we will also certainly sin against God from time to time?

 

[robert derrick]

Your post is directed at
1 John 3.

Yes. Scripture is telling us no man can be born of God and committing sin of the devil against God at the same time.

Yesterday is past, and tomorrow may not come.

Now is all that matters in being saved with the Lord or partaking of the devil.

It's not possible to do both at the same time:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

 

[marks]

On the one hand you plainly declare it impossible to keep the great two commandments 'at all times'.

No, I don't. I know for a fact it is possible. God can accomplish any work in us He wants to.

I've not met anyone whom I've gotten the impression that they do, "at all times", I certainly don't think that of myself! But I never declare it's impossible. It's a matter of being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Generally that doesn't seem to come all at once, from what I've found. But that doesn't mean it can't, and I think sometimes it even does.

But then seem to declare you are living righteously with freedom from sinning.

I think I'm like any other Christian, on a pathway to renewal, where sometimes we are walking in the Spirit, and sometimes not, instead walking according to flesh. And my hope is indeed for each of us that we increase in the Spirit more and more. Certainly that is God's working in us, that this will be so.

Or are you saying we can do righteousness only from tie to time, while we will also certainly sin against God from time to time?

The "certainty" is in your words, not mine. Although if anything, the Scriptures allow that we may yet commit sins, and if we do, we have an Intercessor.

Are you the one who will say, "I love God perfectly at all times"? I'm not. It wouldn't be true, I'm not yet that renewed.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

This is a yes in the sin all you want column.

Being saved is when the soul is not being dead and lost by sinning against God.

No--you don't answer for me.

As for your definition of saved...God decides, and has.

 

[Phoneman777]

I don’t believe in OSAS and I’ve not made up my mind on universalism. But in general neither of things would result in a bad Christian.

For example my cat would probably forgive me no matter what I did. If could be a terrible owner and neglect them, and not feed them and when I came home they would still probably try to snuggle and want pets and so on. However, because I love them, I would not do that. Because I love them I would run into a burning building of strangers and millions of dollars and try to find them and save them. Much like how Jesus gave up this world and his life to save us from destruction despite us all falling short.

the reality is that we all sin everyday. You, me and everyone but Jesus and little kids or those incapable of it because of their cognitive processing.

so even if there was no danger in sinning, and I would still be saved, it would encourage me just as much to live righteously.

it’s like with the purge. Just because all crimes would be legal does not mean I would be out there being evil. So even without “hellfire” preaching we still have a gospel of love that motivates us to do better.
Plus scripture says we know who are are by our fruit.

That's a nice bit of human reasoning you got going there. Suffice it to say, God's love is unconditional, but from Biblical cover to cover salvation is taught to be absolutely conditional: on condition that we repent. That's why 1 John 2:3-4 KJV says those who claim to be saved but keep sinning are "liars" and "the truth is not in them".

Even a dog or cat that is continuously abused will eventually leave if the gate is left open.

 

[Skovand1075]

That's a nice bit of human reasoning you got going there. Suffice it to say, God's love is unconditional, but from Biblical cover to cover salvation is taught to be absolutely conditional: on condition that we repent. That's why 1 John 2:3-4 KJV says those who claim to be saved but keep sinning are "liars" and "the truth is not in them".

Even a dog or cat that is continuously abused will eventually leave if the gate is left open.

All reasoning is human reasoning unless you’re videotaping a animal and then it’s still human reasoning once you begin to interpret it regardless of how straight forward you think it is to you.

 

[BarneyFife]

How come OSAS-bashers never talk about worship in the Spirit?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

How come OSAS-bashers never talk about worship in the Spirit?

Like this?

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)

When a thread appears that brings the subject up.

Why the inquiry?

 

[BarneyFife]

Like this?

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)

When a thread appears that brings the subject up.

Why the inquiry?

It's an inside yolk.

 

[farouk]

You won't get anywhere with the sinless perfectionist crowd on here, Slovand (and I'm sorry I called you "Slovak" on a previous post! Oh dear--I must have been really tired then. I got MattG's name right when I wasn't sure about it and got yours pretty wrong!). You've probably figured this out by now. I don't think they realize how extensive sin is. There's no way any mortal can not sin every single day of his or her life; and most of it is likely done without even realizing it [Actually, it seems to me that the motivation for us wanting to go to heaven is tainted with sin because it is rooted in a selfish desire. That is not to say that it is entirely sinful, that it is just tainted with sin. And most, if not all, good works we do though definitely perceived as righteous--entirely because our Heavenly Father looks on them as done with the sinless perfection of Jesus--are tainted by sinful motivation: not done entirely and solely for the glory of God. Of course, the sinless perfectionists will say that they do these works in this way (the whole speak for yourself deal; I actually am speaking on their behalf too, but they just don't realize that what I am saying is factual); but that is because they do not know the depths of their sinful nature, how it pervades EVERYTHING].

But I have ceased responding to them directly. Unfortunately, these brothers and sisters of mine are deluded, or like I said earlier can't understand how thoroughly a sinful nature pervades every fiber of our being. Of course, we are made new creatures in Jesus and are given the ability to now do good works unto the Lord (but as I said earlier, all these things are still tainted by the sinfulness that yet remains, that won't be taken away until we dwell with the Lord in our eternal home).

@atpollard gives a great defense from the Heidelberg, but these people think these guys who constructed such things were of the devil and just pretty stupid about their Bibles (whereas in fact, all these people were much more intelligent than anyone of us here and likely understood God's word on a far deeper level).

But, the sinless perfectionist group adheres to a partial Bible and throws out the obvious declarations in God's word where he reveals to us how we are going to continue to sin until we are taken to our real home (and I've spent the time giving quotes before, but they were completely ignored and my time is severely limited. Actually practically every verse of the Bible--outside of the genealogies and stuff like that--declare how we are sinners through and through and only God is holy. What a disgusting idea to think that we on this earth can attain something like that. I trust I will see these heretics in heaven, but I also trust that the Lord will show them the filth of the works they understand to be perfect before we will dwell together in blissful harmony with our blessed Heavenly Father. The mere declaration that they appear to make over and over again that they have attained a sinless perfection is sinful in the eyes of God because it discourages the brothers when God has commanded us to be loving and encouraging. It is similar to the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned who proclaimed their own righteousness, placing great demands on the people of God but would not lift a finger themselves).

@dhh712 Romans 8 - such a strong chapter - gives real proof to the fact that "sinless perfectionism" is indeed a myth.

 

[dhh712]

@dhh712 Romans 8 - such a strong chapter - gives real proof to the fact that "sinless perfectionism" is indeed a myth.

So is 6 and 7 of that book; in fact almost the whole book is how we are justified by faith not works. In 7, the war in our beings between righteousness and sin is dramatically accounted. And it is true that when we give into sin we are acting as immature Christians. Mature Christians are able, by God's grace, to walk more closely with Jesus. And for those who attest that would we not want to sin, we would simply not. Yet I would counter that with how there are many things I would like to do but am unable to. One example is to hike up a steep incline in a quick pace. But the lactate which gathers in my muscles makes me unable to. It is the nature of my being. I could wish all I want that I could swiftly go on up that steep incline, but my nature will prevent me and I would have to stop frequently and possibly may not even make it up there.

I'm not that naïve to think that those who adhere to sinless perfection will agree with all of this however. And I'm sure they are quite indignant that I speak on their behalf. Yet, should someone go to the doctor to find out that he has cancer, he can deny that all he wants to. A relative can ask him about the doctor's visit and he may say, "I don't have cancer." Yet, the relative can look at the reports, the lab work and the images and all the documentation that the person does have cancer; so he can say to that person "You do have cancer" and can speak on that person's behalf that he does indeed have cancer. It's the same thing with sinless perfection. Those who uphold it can say they are perfect all they want to, but the facts are the facts. It doesn't change the fact that he or she is not sinless in this life and one such as I can indeed speak the facts and say on that person's behalf, "You continue to sin in this life until you are brought into the Lord's heavenly kingdom". Such is the fact, just as though that person has cancer and is in denial of it.

 

[amadeus]

@dhh712 Romans 8 - such a strong chapter - gives real proof to the fact that "sinless perfectionism" is indeed a myth.

Hmmm? Is Jesus a myth? Did he ever lie to us?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

 

[robert derrick]

No--you don't answer for me.

As for your definition of saved...God decides, and has.

Then if it is a no, I suppose I could understand how someone would think it beneath their dignity to even respond to such an outrageous teaching of OSAS.

But, as I've said, it's refreshing to hear someone say plainly the obvious conclusion of being once saved unconditionally and eternally, so long as someone believes that.

Although, some have even gone so far to say they are still saved forever, even if they no longer believe it.

It's all vain imagination of children playing silly ideology games anyway.

 

[robert derrick]

The willingness to say that we can sin all we want, once saved, is the obvious conclusion of OSAS, and it also shows how OSAS sears the conscience to sinning.

As a normal sinner, I did want to do all the sinning I could, but I also had the occasional conviction of a God consciousness.

The endgame of OSAS therefore is allowing the sinner to continue to think he can sin all he wants, but now under grace, which removes any conviction when they are sinning.

 

[BarneyFife]

You won't get anywhere with the sinless perfectionist crowd on here

Interesting. You've got roughly 100 posts logged "on here" and you've already got a bead on the "sinless perfectionist crowd." I guess they're pretty much the same everywhere, huh?

(By the way)

Welcome to the forum!!! :)​

mmmmmmm

mmmmmmm

​

Of course, the sinless perfectionists will say that they do these works in this way (the whole speak for yourself deal; I actually am speaking on their behalf too, but they just don't realize that what I am saying is factual); but that is because they do not know the depths of their sinful nature, how it pervades EVERYTHING].

Boy, you're inside the minds of a lot of folks, aren't you?

Well, at least you've got the facts on your side.

But I have ceased responding to them directly. Unfortunately, these brothers and sisters of mine are deluded, or like I said earlier can't understand how thoroughly a sinful nature pervades every fiber of our being.

Yeah, you appear to be quite comfortable in total depravity. Not saying you are, but you do appear to be. The LORD looks on the heart, though, so I'm optimistic about you. ;)

Deluded brothers and sisters...

Of course, we are made new creatures in Jesus and are given the ability to now do good works unto the Lord (but as I said earlier, all these things are still tainted by the sinfulness that yet remains, that won't be taken away until we dwell with the Lord in our eternal home).

What's new about us if a "thoroughly sinful nature pervades every fiber of our being?"

@atpollard gives a great defense from the Heidelberg, but these people think these guys who constructed such things were of the devil and just pretty stupid about their Bibles (whereas in fact, all these people were much more intelligent than anyone of us here and likely understood God's word on a far deeper level).

Intelligence is the key to Bible literacy, then...

But, the sinless perfectionist group adheres to a partial Bible

Isn't this the claim of pretty much everyone who's ever disagreed with a differing interpretation of a Bible subject than their own? How do you validate your own particular claim?

and throws out the obvious declarations in God's word where he reveals to us how we are going to continue to sin until we are taken to our real home (and I've spent the time giving quotes before, but they were completely ignored and my time is severely limited.

If you'd direct me to these obvious declarations you've quoted (even if they're somewhere on another site), I promise not to completely ignore them.

 

[BarneyFife]

Actually practically every verse of the Bible--outside of the genealogies and stuff like that--declare how we are sinners through and through and only God is holy.

Would you consider these verses "genealogies and stuff like that?"


Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.


Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.



Hebrews 12:10
They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.


2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Romans 6:19
I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Ephesians 4:24
...and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.

Colossians 3:12
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Ephesians 5:3
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

I'm tired.

Quite a paradox, isn't it?

Adheres to a partial Bible...

What a disgusting idea to think that we on this earth can attain something like that.

Yeah, wouldn't it be awful if everybody just up and stopped sinning?

I trust I will see these heretics in heaven, but I also trust that the Lord will show them the filth of the works they understand to be perfect before we will dwell together in blissful harmony with our blessed Heavenly Father.

God's just going to gather us in to commune with holy angels after living a life of total depravity devoid of victorious overcoming...

The mere declaration that they appear to make over and over again that they have attained a sinless perfection is sinful in the eyes of God because it discourages the brothers when God has commanded us to be loving and encouraging. It is similar to the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned who proclaimed their own righteousness, placing great demands on the people of God but would not lift a finger themselves).

Who are these declarers of attained sinless perfection? The word "they" just doesn't seem to identify these folks.

Wasn't the problem with the Pharisees not that they pursued sinless perfection—but that they did so by the means of their own, selfish will and extra-biblical, rabbinical methods?

After all. God warned them in Deuteronomy 5:29 that they needed new hearts, didn't He?


John 5:14
Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

John 8:11
"No one, Lord," she answered. "Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus. "Go, and from now on do not sin any more."

.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

when we give into sin we are acting as immature Christians.

Worse, you are betraying your Lord in serving and obeying the lusts of the flesh (Romans 6:16). Something that does not have dominion over a born again believer (Romans 6:14). Hint hint.

It is the nature of my being

Then you either were never born again, or you have corrupted the new man and have trampled under your feet your Saviour (Hebrews 10:29).

So is 6 and 7 of that book; in fact almost the whole book is how we are justified by faith not works.

An immature view of the whole book of Romans indeed. You missed the part that says this:

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9)

So the whole discourse in Romans 7 that sin lovers love referencing is not the condition of a born again Christian anymore. Only for those who are still, or were, in the flesh:

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.” (Romans 7:5)

In 7, the war in our beings between righteousness and sin is dramatically accounted.

Yes, our OLD beings!

So what you need to do, if you’re still qualified to do so, is:

“…put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:24)

You only get one set of the new man.

You don’t get a second new man once you ruined the first one.