OSAS origins and comparison

[Dan Clarkston]

No, the Reformers did not charge God with evil. I don't think you know Reformed Theology.

That's funny. Of course those deceived by so called reformed theology would be blind to it's deceptions

7 Reasons Why Calvinism Is Not The Fatalism You've Been Told

Calvinism (as well as the rest of reformed theology) is a cult and is not of God in any way shape or form.

They are the tares Jesus warned about.

 

[RLT63]

Up front, I confess that I am more Reformation-oriented in my soteriology than Arminian, though I am to a measure a Free Will advocate. That being said I am much more tolerant of free discourse between genuine Christian movements on this issue than many. It is an oddity of history that Predestination was largely viewed as the more orthodox view for many years, and Arminianism viewed with suspicion and at times as even a heresy.

But in places like the US, where Methodism has become prominent, the roles have reversed. Predestination, when coupled with Calvinism, is considered by some Methodists as heresy, while Arminianism is viewed as the prominent orthodox position. That being said, the truth needs to be told.

I'm a member of AoG and currently attend a Methodist church. Since I'm disallowed from discussing this elsewhere on this Forum, and people on the Forum continue to argue on this topic, I will confine my response here. And I will severely cut back my contributions on this Forum, since it is heavily censored on this matter, allowing for only one point of view. However, I've been told I am able to express ideas on this subject here, on the Unorthodox portion of the Forum, free of censorship.

OSAS is the Calvinist position expressed by some in more modern times. But the concept originates with early Predestination beliefs held by Augustine and the Reformers, though not necessarily expressed literally as "Once Saved Always Saved." Calvin went farther than some with his Double Predestination, as it was later called. TULIP came to present the 5 points of Calvinism, which included the Perseverance of the Saints, or one form of "Once Saved Always Saved."

Lutheranism and Calvinism were concerned to avoid the error of Pelagianism, the idea that we have within our nature the ability to independently produce righteousness and obtain Eternal Life. According to the Reformers we are predestined to Election by God, but once so Elected are free to make choices to exercise Faith and to Choose Salvation.

Methodism held to the idea that people have Prevenient Grace and are able to produce Faith by our own works with the caveat that Christ's redemption is essential to the formula. Some explain this as operating together with Christ synergistically.

A lot had to do with understanding the nature of Salvation itself in terms of Justification and Sanctification. Luther felt that a complete Conversion indicating one has true Faith and belongs to the Elect is at the heart of Salvation.

Arminius felt that conversion becomes real with Faith, and tends towards Perseverance, but nevertheless can be lost. Wesley believed the Arminian formula, but presented Instant Sanctification as a step beyond Nominal Christianity to indicate a more authentic Christian Conversion, or Rebirth.

Pentecostals saw Spirit Baptism as an important follow-up to Salvation, though like Methodist Sanctification seemed to confirm a real Conversion beyond Nominal Christianity. In reality, though, Nominal Christianity may represent a false Christianity, existing without a complete or true commitment to Christianity--less than a full Conversion.

So, all of these theological systems called for a step beyond the Nominal Church to provide real evidence of a true Conversion, or Rebirth. They are just called by different names, authenticating true Conversion, whether it is described as the experience of Faith for Election, Instant Sanctification, or Spirit Baptism.

And whether one can lose his Salvation or not may depend on whether the one exercising Christian gifts is representative of a true Christian Conversion or not. Jesus said that men would say, "Lord, Lord," when they are displaying gifts but not fully committed to Christ.

It is debatable, I suppose, whether someone who has the gifts of Christianity is really Christian when he turns away from Christianity permanently? That's the thing with OSAS--it doesn't seem to make much difference either way. If a Christian acts like a Christian and is not, or acts like a Christian and is, and turns completely away, the result is the same--the person who had acted Christian completely turns away. Paul and Peter both called for Christians, with gifts, to prove whether they are the Elect.

The big deal with Reformation Theology and Predestination is whether it is Fatalistic or has Free Will, in some measure? Regardless, all agree that whether Prevenient Grace or Faith by Election, nobody works righteousness acceptable to God for Salvation unless it is done with Christ's Atonement providing for it legally and spiritually. Even Predestinarians who are somewhat Fatalistic do allow for some measure of Free Will--just not Pelagianism.

Maturing in the Christian life has nothing to do with obtaining Salvation, which is what some call "Progressive Sanctification." We are actually Sanctified by the Work of Christ at Salvation, though the process of maturation continues progressively over time.

I believe in free will but lean toward OSAS

 

[RLT63]

There's far more demonic deception in reformed theology.

Especially the part where they claim God actually causes child molesters to rape and molest little children as they actually blame God for all the sin and darkness in the world claiming he doesn't just allow it... they claim He is the cause of it.

These people are so deceived the devil has them confused thinking God and the devil are the same guy! View attachment 88451

I don't see how anyone could believe that

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I don't see how anyone could believe that

Then this passage is speaking to you then:

2 Corinthians 4:3,4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Reformed theology is a perversion of the true Gospel as found in scripture.

This perversion was brought to the adherents of reformed theology courtesy of satan's demons who mix deception in with truth. A little leaven spoils the whole lump (Galatians 5:9)

It's just like in the garden of eden where satan did not tell them everything God said was false, he just told them parts of what God said was false which was enough to get them to sin and be separated from the Lord (spiritual death).

Reformed "churches" (and those influenced by reformed teaching) are not New Testament churches but are social clubs instead which is another way they keep people hooked is that most people want to be accepted by others and end up believing what others tell them before believing what God teaches in His Word.

It's a sad state of affairs for those following a different "jesus" and another "gospel"

 

[RLT63]

Then this passage is speaking to you then:

2 Corinthians 4:3,4
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Reformed theology is a perversion of the true Gospel as found in scripture.

This perversion was brought to the adherents of reformed theology courtesy of satan's demons who mix deception in with truth. A little leaven spoils the whole lump (Galatians 5:9)

It's just like in the garden of eden where satan did not tell them everything God said was false, he just told them parts of what God said was false which was enough to get them to sin and be separated from the Lord (spiritual death).

Reformed "churches" (and those influenced by reformed teaching) are not New Testament churches but are social clubs instead which is another way they keep people hooked is that most people want to be accepted by others and end up believing what others tell them before believing what God teaches in His Word.

It's a sad state of affairs for those following a different "jesus" and another "gospel"

I don't understand how someone could believe that God causes child molesters to rape children

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I don't understand how someone could believe that God causes child molesters to rape children

Well they do claim God causes all that happens to happen.

That's what calvinists and moslems have in common - they believe if it happens, it was God that caused it to happen.

They got that from their daddy the devil who deceived them in to believing God did not create man in His Own Image resulting in man not having free will in spite of what God says in His Word

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Davy]

....

So, all of these theological systems called for a step beyond the Nominal Church to provide real evidence of a true Conversion, or Rebirth. They are just called by different names, authenticating true Conversion, whether it is described as the experience of Faith for Election, Instant Sanctification, or Spirit Baptism.

But what does God's written Word actually reveal about all this? The Gospel was preached to Abraham first, and Abraham believed, and thus Abraham's FAITH was counted to him as righteousness. And for this reason all those of FAITH have become the children of Abraham (Galatians 3; Romans 4).

Apostle Paul showed Christ's Salvation is only by FAITH, through God's unmerited favor, and not by our works. This is how even the crucified malefactor who had no time to load up a bunch of works in Christ, simply believed on Jesus right then, and Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise (Luke 23:42-43).

Works are simply a byproduct of FAITH. Those in Christ should... have them, which indeed is evidence of FAITH. But those works do not save us, and should never be taught to come in between Christ's offer of Salvation by FAITH only.

And being "born again" of The Spirit is very important and is the result of FAITH on Jesus Christ. In the Greek that "born again" phrase actually means 'born from above', pointing to the anointing by The Holy Spirit upon our spirit/soul that's inside our flesh body. It is an actual literal manifestation by The Holy Spirit upon our spirit with soul, and has nothing to do with our flesh. That is why Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) Want to call it baptism by The Spirit, same thing as being "born again."

And whether one can lose his Salvation or not may depend on whether the one exercising Christian gifts is representative of a true Christian Conversion or not. Jesus said that men would say, "Lord, Lord," when they are displaying gifts but not fully committed to Christ.

Lord Jesus about those believers in Matthew 7 that had proof of miracles in His Name, but they worked "iniquity" He said. Does that mean they lost their Salvation because of their evil works? Yes, in a way, but we still have Christ's future "thousand years" reign yet to go. The iniquity those most likely will be found guilty of will be falling away to worship the false-Christ that Jesus and His Apostles warned will come to earth first, claiming to be God in Jerusalem.

This also will likely have to do with the "five foolish virgins" also being rejected by Christ when He returns, because they thought they could 'buy' the Oil (Holy Spirit) at market, showing their thinking was according to the ways of this world, and not by The Spirit in Christ Jesus. That points to their being more liable to fall away by listening to men's doctrines instead of God's written Word. And because Jesus gave that parable of the ten virgins associated with the end and the day of His future coming, it points to their iniquity involving the tribulation events when the false-Messiah is setup in Jerusalem.

It is debatable, I suppose, whether someone who has the gifts of Christianity is really Christian when he turns away from Christianity permanently? That's the thing with OSAS--it doesn't seem to make much difference either way. If a Christian acts like a Christian and is not, or acts like a Christian and is, and turns completely away, the result is the same--the person who had acted Christian completely turns away. Paul and Peter both called for Christians, with gifts, to prove whether they are the Elect.

There is no reason to claim those who will fall away were never true Christians in the first place. That claim is an actual denial that any believer can lose their salvation. It actually supports the false notions of OSAS. Yet what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 7 disproves OSAS with those whom He will turn away at His future return because even though they performed miracles in His Name, they worked iniquity.

Again, what does God's written Word say about these things; what men say about it does not super-cede what God's written Word says.

With Christ's Apostles, especially with Apostle Paul, there is no free will choice being shown when Jesus chose them in His service of The Gospel. They were chosen and ordained by Lord Jesus (John 15:16). Does that mean God knew beforehand who would believe on Him and His Son? Not necessarily. That's just man's way of trying to deal with that 'mystery'. Per John 17, the Apostles originally belonged to The Father, and He gave them to Lord Jesus. And Jesus said they, like Him, were not of this world, and were 'sent' (meaning of the Greek word for apostle, to be a chosen sent one). And Jesus said His elect were chosen before the foundation of the world (Rev.13:8; Matt.25:34).

Also per John 17, Jesus showed the existence to 2 separate groups of His servants, those whom were 'sent' and thus chosen, and then those who would believe by the preaching of Christ's Apostles, which is about the majority of us, that are 'called' only.

God's Word reveals that His 'chosen' can never fall away.

But those who are called only can fall away. Jesus then showed in that John 17 Chapter that those who remain in the Faith are thus included as His elect with His chosen sent ones, and they all would become ONE with Him and The Father (i.e., Christ's Church).

This is why we find much of Apostle Paul's Epistles admonishing the 'called' brethren to remain in the Faith on Jesus Christ and not to fall away, even though Paul knew some would fall away.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Apostle Paul showed Christ's Salvation is only by FAITH, through God's unmerited favor, and not by our works. This is how even the crucified malefactor who had no time to load up a bunch of works in Christ, simply believed on Jesus right then, and Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise (Luke 23:42-43).

Works are simply a byproduct of FAITH. Those in Christ should... have them, which indeed is evidence of FAITH. But those works do not save us, and should never be taught to come in between Christ's offer of Salvation by FAITH only.

Pretty well said, and for the most part I agree with you. I'm not sure what all of the implications of your statements mean, since you seem to propose it as a counter-argument?

Let me just say this. There is confusion over the word "works." And this is understandable since there was an enormous quarrel over the role Works play in our Salvation in the Catholic-Protestant contest.

Quite simply, Works can have more than one meaning. I agree with you that Works with respect to our Atonement rest only with Christ, and not with us. Only Christ atoned for our sins.

But with respect to the things needed to obtain our Salvation, Works do play a role of a different sort. They are not Works to Atone, but rather, Works to Obtain. God has required that in order to obtain the benefits of His Atonement we must accept that Atonement. Acceptance is part of Faith, which you mentioned and I agree with.

We are to have Faith in order to be Saved. And this means we accept Christ's Atonement and make the choice to live by it. That kind of "Works" is called "Repentance." The Works of Repentance do not displace the Work of Christ's Atonement--they just accept the basis of our Salvation, which is to rely on Christ's Atonement and Christ's spirituality. Apart from Christ nothing we do has any lasting value with the exception of our placing our trust in his Life and in his Atonement.

Whatever Works we have done in Christ, whether conscious of it or not, may outlast our current mortal existence. And I do think many people, Christian or not, have unknowingly lived by their conscience to some degree. However, the value of the Christian regenerative experience is that what we consciously do in Christ represents the full testimony of Christ's righteousness, and does not confuse it with our own carnal choices. In other words,

Christian Regeneration is the full testimony of our Salvation--not a few good works and a few evil works. Not sometimes following God's Word and sometimes going our own way. We must show that God is our Way all of the time.

This also will likely have to do with the "five foolish virgins" also being rejected by Christ when He returns, because they thought they could 'buy' the Oil (Holy Spirit) at market, showing their thinking was according to the ways of this world, and not by The Spirit in Christ Jesus. That points to their being more liable to fall away by listening to men's doctrines instead of God's written Word. And because Jesus gave that parable of the ten virgins associated with the end and the day of His future coming, it points to their iniquity involving the tribulation events when the false-Messiah is setup in Jerusalem.

Yes, the 5 Foolish Virgins represent, to me, Israel under the Law who were under covenant with God and yet did not obtain a lasting spirituality. By contrast, Jesus' followers ingested the spirituality of Christ and had God's Spirit permanently planted within them.

Saying some "lost their Salvation" is dependent on how you define "Salvation." Some might say that living under the Covenant of Law at any time qualified them as being a people "Saved from God's punishments," as in the blessings of obedience under the Law.

Deut 28.If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth... 7 The Lord will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.

This may be viewed as a form of spiritual-political "Salvation."

Others might say that those who had been living under Covenant of the Law had fully received the Holy Spirit and regeneration, and then lost it. I take the former view. Until one has God's Life full indwelt within in a lasting way I can't say he is truly "Saved." Saved from God's punishment for a time, yes. Saved in the sense of experiencing spiritual gifts and blessings of God's provisions, yes. But not Saved for all time, obviously.

There is no reason to claim those who will fall away were never true Christians in the first place.

Right, but there is reason to claim those who fall away were never fully Saved, and never truly had Eternal Life. They were genuine Christians in the sense that they had accepted Christ as their Savior. But I think that when they give up that spiritual life they never had fully embraced it 100%. That's just a matter of personal opinion.

That claim is an actual denial that any believer can lose their salvation. It actually supports the false notions of OSAS. Yet what Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 7 disproves OSAS with those whom He will turn away at His future return because even though they performed miracles in His Name, they worked iniquity.

No, I think Jesus was proclaiming the end game of those who had used his gifts without fully converting. In the end they turn against Jesus. So, they were not in iniquity when they exercised spiritual gifts. Rather, they became wicked when they converted, like Judas, to follow Satan.

Jesus denied them credit for what they had done while in obedience. We see this in Ezekiel.

Eze 18.24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die."

What this says is not that the person here is unrighteous while he does righteousness! Rather, it is only *when* he turns from righteousness and commits sin that he is deemed unrighteous, and has all of his former righteousness discounted.

With Christ's Apostles, especially with Apostle Paul, there is no free will choice being shown when Jesus chose them in His service of The Gospel. They were chosen and ordained by Lord Jesus (John 15:16). Does that mean God knew beforehand who would believe on Him and His Son? Not necessarily. That's just man's way of trying to deal with that 'mystery'. Per John 17, the Apostles originally belonged to The Father, and He gave them to Lord Jesus. And Jesus said they, like Him, were not of this world, and were 'sent' (meaning of the Greek word for apostle, to be a chosen sent one). And Jesus said His elect were chosen before the foundation of the world (Rev.13:8; Matt.25:34).

A traditional way of looking at Predestination like this is the belief that God predestined 11 of the 12 disciples to be His Elect. The 12th was left out of the Election not because God originally ordained it, but only because in the history of Man's meddling God knew Judas would reject Him and represent extraneous human works beyond that which God originally ordained.

And so, God foreknew who Judas would be, even though it was not part of His original plan. It was human sin that entered into the formula allowing Man to produce children not planned by God.

Also per John 17, Jesus showed the existence to 2 separate groups of His servants, those whom were 'sent' and thus chosen, and then those who would believe by the preaching of Christ's Apostles, which is about the majority of us, that are 'called' only.

God's Word reveals that His 'chosen' can never fall away.

I agree. Many are called, but few are chosen. However, I believe many who are called, and do not qualify to be chosen can still be Saved. There will be many more in heaven than just the "Chosen Few," in my opinion.

Jesus was only pointing out that relative few live up to their calling. And this would include many Christians who will be Saved, and just fail to live up to the righteousness God has called us to. We're all weak, and relative few fight the inclination to Sin. Few fulfill their calling to serve God in a full way.

But those who are called only can fall away. Jesus then showed in that John 17 Chapter that those who remain in the Faith are thus included as His elect with His chosen sent ones, and they all would become ONE with Him and The Father (i.e., Christ's Church).

This is why we find much of Apostle Paul's Epistles admonishing the 'called' brethren to remain in the Faith on Jesus Christ and not to fall away, even though Paul knew some would fall away.

I think that both Paul and Peter admonished Christians to not just continue in their Salvation experience but more, to fully embrace and embed the Spirit of God within their souls. That is regeneration. This is Election.

And even after proving full regeneration and with it Election we are still encouraged to fulfill our calling and ministry to God. We are to faithfully live out the righteousness we are called to. Thanks for your input!

 

[Davy]

We are to have Faith in order to be Saved. And this means we accept Christ's Atonement and make the choice to live by it. That kind of "Works" is called "Repentance."

Repentance is not considered a 'work' per the Biblical perspective. It is though per the Catholic doctrines of men, and that is the difference the believer should be aware of, and was one of the reasons for the Protestant rebellion against the Catholic Church. Corruption comes from man always trying to place a wedge between Christ and His saving grace, adding more requirements to it that Jesus never did.

Now other than that, a true believer on Jesus Christ through baptism by The Spirit through Faith is promised to receive The Holy Spirit as Guide in following Christ's commandments. Indeed being perfect in following His commandments is a work in progress that we will never achieve perfectly while in the flesh. That doesn't mean we are not to have works in Christ, but those works is not the same act as having Faith and being saved by God's grace, and not by works.

There is only one sin which Lord Jesus said cannot be forgiven for the believer, and it is blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. I believe only the true believer can commit the unpardonable sin, like the example Paul gave in Hebrews 6:4-8 about the believer who had evidence and gifts of the world to come, but turns away from Christ. Other than that, Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven. For this reason, I believe the deceived brethren during coming the tribulation will go through a spiritual crucible during Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, and be saved at the end of it. But for this present world, most of those have been spiritually blinded by men's doctrines from Satan. In Christ's future reign, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone until his final release out of the pit to go tempt the unsaved a final time once they have actually had their opportunity to hear The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear.

Yes, the 5 Foolish Virgins represent, to me, Israel under the Law who were under covenant with God and yet did not obtain a lasting spirituality. By contrast, Jesus' followers ingested the spirituality of Christ and had God's Spirit permanently planted within them.

I don't know where you got that Israel application about the five foolish virgins, but that is not who that parable is about. The five foolish virgins had the lamps with Oil in them too, which Oil represents The Holy Spirit. And they too were waiting on Jesus' future return like the five wise virgins were (given symbolically). The five foolish virgins are a parallel to those believers of Matthew 7:21-23 that had done many wonderful works in Christ's Name, showing they were believers and had gifts of The Holy Spirit, yet they worked iniquity Jesus said.

But many preachers won't accept that above interpretation, because they believe if the believer falls away during this present world, that's it, they go into the future "lake of fire". That's really not what God's Word teaches, especially per the idea of the spiritually "dead" in Ezekiel 44, a Millennial Chapter for after Christ's future return when everyone will be in spiritual bodies per the sounding of the "last trump".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Repentance is not considered a 'work' per the Biblical perspective.

That was my point, Davy. People conflate two different meanings of the word "Works." Atoning Works is what Christ did. Works of repentance is what we do. Only Christ can earn Salvation on behalf of Men. He did it simply by proving His Deity, as well as His compassion for us.

It is though per the Catholic doctrines of men, and that is the difference the believer should be aware of, and was one of the reasons for the Protestant rebellion against the Catholic Church. Corruption comes from man always trying to place a wedge between Christ and His saving grace, adding more requirements to it that Jesus never did.

Yes, Salvation by Works is a dangerous belief and needed to be exposed by Martin Luther and others. It was the thing Jesus warned against when he attacked the Works doctrine of the Pharisees under the Law. The Law was not evil. But thinking that keeping the Law saved people was, in fact, evil.

Now other than that, a true believer on Jesus Christ through baptism by The Spirit through Faith is promised to receive The Holy Spirit as Guide in following Christ's commandments. Indeed being perfect in following His commandments is a work in progress that we will never achieve perfectly while in the flesh. That doesn't mean we are not to have works in Christ, but those works is not the same act as having Faith and being saved by God's grace, and not by works.

Agreed.

There is only one sin which Lord Jesus said cannot be forgiven for the believer, and it is blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. I believe only the true believer can commit the unpardonable sin, like the example Paul gave in Hebrews 6:4-8 about the believer who had evidence and gifts of the world to come, but turns away from Christ.

What a "true believer" is can be debated. I am deleted on one forum for claiming that "true believers" can be defined as believers who genuinely believe on a temporary basis, but cannot be called the "Elect" or "Born Again" if their commitment falls short of what is needed for that. In other words, we can believe without making a full commitment and still be rewarded by God temporarily for doing things right if only temporarily.

That is how I interpret Hebrews 6. People genuinely believe on a temporary basis but have not proven their faith as enduring or persevering. As such, they are blessed not with Rebirth but only with Spiritual Gifts that do not Save.

Other than that, Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven. For this reason, I believe the deceived brethren during coming the tribulation will go through a spiritual crucible during Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, and be saved at the end of it. But for this present world, most of those have been spiritually blinded by men's doctrines from Satan. In Christ's future reign, Satan won't be able to deceive anyone until his final release out of the pit to go tempt the unsaved a final time once they have actually had their opportunity to hear The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear.

I see the Millennium as the period in which Christian nations can remain Christian, instead of falling like they do in the present age.

I don't know where you got that Israel application about the five foolish virgins, but that is not who that parable is about. The five foolish virgins had the lamps with Oil in them too, which Oil represents The Holy Spirit. And they too were waiting on Jesus' future return like the five wise virgins were (given symbolically). The five foolish virgins are a parallel to those believers of Matthew 7:21-23 that had done many wonderful works in Christ's Name, showing they were believers and had gifts of The Holy Spirit, yet they worked iniquity Jesus said.

The parable of the 10 virgins in context was given by Jesus in a time when the Law was still in effect and Israel was the Chosen nation. The "virgins" were maids under the Law not yet married to Christ. 5 had an insufficient amount of oil, which means they had a temporary use of spirituality, while the other 5 ensured they had spirituality that would last until the wedding.

But many preachers won't accept that above interpretation, because they believe if the believer falls away during this present world, that's it, they go into the future "lake of fire". That's really not what God's Word teaches, especially per the idea of the spiritually "dead" in Ezekiel 44, a Millennial Chapter for after Christ's future return when everyone will be in spiritual bodies per the sounding of the "last trump".

I agree that many true believers guilty of sin can be forgiven. The blasphemy of the Spirit is unpardonable, yes, but there are other sins that are unpardonable in the Bible.

The most prominent unpardonable sin is simply the rejection of Christ, not due to duress, but due to heart-felt choice. Some determine that they have no love for God, for the Holy Spirit, nor for Christians.

They want no help living their lives from the Spirit of God, and choose consciously to go their own way. This is unpardonable according to the Scriptures. It is a choice all men must make one way or the other, in my opinion.

 

[Davy]

That was my point, Davy. People conflate two different meanings of the word "Works." Atoning Works is what Christ did. Works of repentance is what we do. Only Christ can earn Salvation on behalf of Men. He did it simply by proving His Deity, as well as His compassion for us.

Yet you are still using terms like, "Atoning Works" and "Works of repentance", and even capitalizing the word "Works" as if it is part of Faith when it is not. Jesus only 'symbolically' represents the old covenant type atonement for sin. Literally though, God is our Father and through the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ the remission of sins is only upon those who believe. We don't have to literally partake of Jesus' flesh to believe on Him, for that is like trying to bring the old covenant atonements for sin back. The wine and bread are only symbols for His saving grace, not literal material manifestations of Christ's real blood and bones like the Catholic Church tries to push.

What a "true believer" is can be debated. I am deleted on one forum for claiming that "true believers" can be defined as believers who genuinely believe on a temporary basis, but cannot be called the "Elect" or "Born Again" if their commitment falls short of what is needed for that. In other words, we can believe without making a full commitment and still be rewarded by God temporarily for doing things right if only temporarily.

There again, that idea (above) violates the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ's Blood shed upon the cross for the remission of the sins of those who 'believe'. It is the heart that God judges, which is why no man can judge another's faith as being authentic or not. And don't get me wrong, I don't hold to OSAS, because many brethren are going to fall away to the false-Messiah who comes first at the end of this world, and they will stand in judgment throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign. It will be the job of Christ's elect (the Zadok, i.e., Righteous) who reign with Him to teach those the difference between the holy and the profane, the clean and the unclean (Ezekiel 44:23-25). This is what Lord Jesus was referring to with His warning to His Church about not being found spiritually naked and in shame when He returns (Rev.16:15; 2 Cor.5:1-4; Rev.3:18).

That is how I interpret Hebrews 6. People genuinely believe on a temporary basis but have not proven their faith as enduring or persevering.

No, your suggesting belief in 'Works' again.

The idea of that one in Hebrews 6 that has proof of the world to come is that IF that one falls away, they will have chosen to fall away by their own full accountability, and are without excuse, and can never renew their Faith. That... is what the unpardonable sin is actually about, and can only be committed by one who has experienced that proof of Christ's Kingdom by The Holy Spirit.

I see the Millennium as the period in which Christian nations can remain Christian, instead of falling like they do in the present age.

Then that would have to be the ones NOT gathered by Lord Jesus at His coming, because Jesus gathers His elect Church to Him and goes to Jerusalem to reign over all nations on earth, His elect reigning from there with Him. That is the subject of Zechariah 14:1-9.

The parable of the 10 virgins in context was given by Jesus in a time when the Law was still in effect and Israel was the Chosen nation.

Doesn't matter that He gave that parable at His 1st coming. The context determines the subject, and it is given as a symbol for the Church waiting at 'midnight' for the Bridegroom (Jesus) to come, and all the 10 virgins fall asleep, which is put for the idea of Jesus' commandment for the Church to be watching for the thief that breaks in at midnight, because Jesus said He comes "as a thief".

Those on man's false pre-trib rapture doctrine also try to say Christ's Olivet discourse isn't for Christ's Church, just because the Apostles with Him upon that Mount of Olives were Jews. Fact is though, Paul showed in Ephesians 2 that the Apostles make up part of the early foundation of Christ's Church. Pre-trib doctors don't want their congregations to study Christ's Olivet discourse because it is where Lord Jesus Himself emphatically shows His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation He was describing there.