Other gods I know
- Thread starter mjrhealth
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Joh_18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
But since you insist that you cant hear His voice
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
As for canonical its not even biblical, you choose man I choose Jesus. Jesus could not convince the religious of the truth and since you do not desire the truth I have absolutely no hope at all. You would like only one answer, and for me to agree with you I would have to lie. I know the wiles of teh enemy and I will not play games with Him. You choose to glorify your church I choose like so few to Glorify God. You are on your own.
In all His Love
But since you insist that you cant hear His voice
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
As for canonical its not even biblical, you choose man I choose Jesus. Jesus could not convince the religious of the truth and since you do not desire the truth I have absolutely no hope at all. You would like only one answer, and for me to agree with you I would have to lie. I know the wiles of teh enemy and I will not play games with Him. You choose to glorify your church I choose like so few to Glorify God. You are on your own.
In all His Love
The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
mjrhealth said:
You can duck and dive all your like but you are just avoiding the issue.
Either you are accepting the canon as on the basis of the discernment of men in the past or on account of your own personal choice.
But I see that you are determined to avoid this so I will elave you to it..
Shalom!
Ducked what, I have answered you question multiple times you just wont accept the answer. As the OP says. the bible has become god to many....
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
They walked in the Spirit today men are carnal and walk after the flesh, all they needed was the Holy Spirit, now men want it all handed to them by men to there own destruction.
In all His Love
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
They walked in the Spirit today men are carnal and walk after the flesh, all they needed was the Holy Spirit, now men want it all handed to them by men to there own destruction.
In all His Love
I'm intrigued Where do we find that the Apostles handed over authority that Jesus gave them? Other than the 'hallowed' (sic) records of the Catholic Church, this never happened! They were just men who God granted special authority. They couldn't give someone else that authority. Only God can.Mungo said:
The issue of apostolic succession and authority is a a huge one and really needs a thread of it's own. But I'll give a a few brief points.ZebraHug said:
If someone has authority, then when they give them a task, a mission, an office under their authority, then they give them the authority that goes with it.
This consists of the authority to act and to speak in their name (within the scope of the authority they give them).
Jesus gave the apostles the authority to act and speak in his name when he gave them the mission “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Mt 28:19-20).
That mission would take generations and is still in progress. It follows then that those that were appomnted to continue the mission would be passed the authority to act and speak in Jesus name, and that as Jesus promised he would be with them until it was completed ( the “close of the age”).
As Jesus said - Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me. (Lk 10:16)
We can see this in the appointment of Matthias (Acts 1) as a successor of Judas. Jesus was with them for forty days after his resurrection and could have appointed a successor himself, but he left it to the apostles. When Matthias was appointed “he was enrolled with the eleven apostles” or as the KJV put it “he was numbered with the eleven apostles”. In other words he had the same status and authority.
We know that Paul hands on authority to Timothy and Titus whom he appoints to oversee churches, and he instructs them in the selection of people they in turn are appoint and pass on authority to.
So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:1-2)
He instructs them in the selection of such people
For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, ……… For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents. (Tit1:5,7,9)
There is much I could quote from the documents of the early Church. Here is the earliest:
Clement of Rome
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier.... Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry." (Epistle to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [A.D. 80]).
There is a lot more but I don’t want to derail the thread (any further :) )
Based on scripture, theocratic succession is not a biblical concept. It is, though, a very pagan idea that has influenced mankind from the beginning of the world until now.
Theocratic succession was a stupid thing for me to say. Of course theocratic succession is biblical. What I should have said is apostolic succession. Apostle's are chosen by GOD, not man. I don't think there are any instances of apostolic succession in the bible.Mungo said:
That's true. However, it can be argued that Judas was never an apostle, only a disciple. And the new covenant was not made with Judas. The apostles were not sent into all the world until after the cross and Pentecost. So technically there was no apostolic succession. It appears to have been just a symbolic gesture.Mungo said:
You could indeed argue that – but it contradicts the BibleChristRoseFromTheDead said:
And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. (Lk 6:13-16)
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (Mt 10:2-4)
Good job. I stand corrected.Mungo said:
I will say this, though. The only instance of apostolic succession was limited specifically to one who had actually been with the lord. Also, the biblical method for choosing the apostolic successor was via casting of lots, and not apostolic, or otherwise, voting.
I'm interested as to where Mattias actually fitted in. Since we really don't read of him again . . . .Mungo said:
In regards to the passing on of authority, other than the all-powerful God giving authority to people, I can't think of any instances. Where Paul speaks to Timothy and Titus, he is referring to doctrine, not the God-given authority he had. He couldn't pass that on, that was something they had to ask and receive of God just as Elisha did.
We don't hear of most of the apsotles again, though there are traditions of where some of them went (e.g. Thomas to India). I don't know anything about Matthias.ZebraHug said:
A slightly side comment but Barnabus is referred to as an Apostle in Acts 14:14.
Acts 6 (1-6) describes how seven are appointed with special service, and the apostles laid hands on them to commission them. But they were not apostles and did not have all the authority of apostles. We can see this in that Philip had the authority to preach and baptise (Acts 8) but not the authority to call down the Holy Spirit. Peter and John, as apostles, had to be sent up from Jerusalem to do this.
We know that Paul hands on authority to Timothy and Titus whom he appoints to oversee churches, and he instructs them in the selection of people they in turn are appoint and pass on authority to.
So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:1-2)
Paul refers to the laying on of hands on Timothy:
[SIZE=12pt]Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders (1Tim 4:14)[/SIZE]
He instructs them in the selection of such people
For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, [SIZE=10pt]……… [/SIZE]For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents. (Tit1:5,7,9)
The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way—for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace and the snare of the devil. (1Tim 3:1-7)
Note how Paul instructs Timothy to guard the treasure that has been entrusted to him;
Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us. (2 Tim 1:13-14)
He has previously left Timothy in charge at Ephesus with full authority over those there, particularly over those who had appointed themselves teachers, and false teachers at that.
I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine, and not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations rather than the divine training that is known by faith. But the aim of such instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and sincere faith. Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions. (1Tim 1:3-7)
Jesus gave the apostles the mission to take the gospel to the ends of the earth and he promised he would be with them to the end of the age. (Mt 28:19-20). That would not happen in their lifetime. Indeed it is not finished yet. That authority needed to be passed on to continue the mission.
In regards to Matthias, I don't think he was just randomly selected. He would've been a man who clearly had God's spirit, and you'll notice that it wasn't the apostles who actually chose him, they threw lots to determine who would take Judas' place. There was no transfer of authority.Mungo said:
The reason Philip couldn't pray in the Holy Ghost, was because Peter was given the keys of the kingdom. Peter would open the doors to the kingdom of God firstly with the Jews at Jerusalem, then the Samaritans with Philip, and finally, Cornelius, the gentiles. It wasn't because Philip didn't have authority.
I understood that we were seeing about the passing on of authority? Paul is talking about selecting someone based on their character, but at no stage does he ever mention or condone the passing of God-given authority as you mentioned. The authority that Jesus gave to his apostles, was a once of authority. It didn't pass down, and no where do we find a record of it being passed down. (btw, if that authority really was passed down, why don't I read of the world being turned upside down? Could it be the church has fallen asleep?)
Once again, what authority are we talking about? I understood that we were referring to this statement: "And the apostles passed on that authority to their sucessors and they passed it on to their succesors in an unbroken line to the Catholic Bishops of today."
My position is that God chooses who he will to lead His Church, not man. If a man is led of God, he will most certainly pick the man God wanted him to pick. But that's because God picked that man that was picked.
ZebraHug said:
It was the apostles who selected two candidates and then cast lots. And Mattias “was numbered with the eleven apostles”. I see that as meaning he was given all the authority that went with being an apostle.
I disagree. We see Paul laying on hands and calling down the Spirit in Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”ZebraHug said:
This was not specific to Peter but to the apostles. Philip was a deacon not an apostle.
Paul is talking about selecting someone based on their character. But selecting them for what? He is selecting them for leadership and for the authority that comes with that position.ZebraHug said:
“The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task “ (1Tim 3:1)
Paul continues:
“He must manage his own household well……for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?”
The Bishop takes care of God’s Church.
Paul writes to Timothy Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (2Tim 1:13) Paul has given Timothy sound teaching.
“Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.” (2Tim 1:14)
Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit. Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others.
“You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.” (2Tim 2:1-2)
So Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn. Then they will be able to teach others as well.
Thus we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.
Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13
.
Men have to pick who will lead the Church. They may pick wisely or unwisely. They may pick in a God led way or not. But whoever they pick they can pass on the authority they have been given.ZebraHug said:
It’s the same in the secular world. A Police chief will select people to be policemen. He may pick wisely or unwisely but good cops and bad cops have the same authority to arrest people.
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