Other gods I know

[Groundzero]

It was the apostles who selected two candidates and then cast lots. And Mattias “was numbered with the eleven apostles”. I see that as meaning he was given all the authority that went with being an apostle.



I disagree. We see Paul laying on hands and calling down the Spirit in Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”
This was not specific to Peter but to the apostles. Philip was a deacon not an apostle.



Paul is talking about selecting someone based on their character. But selecting them for what? He is selecting them for leadership and for the authority that comes with that position.
“The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task “ (1Tim 3:1)

Paul continues:
“He must manage his own household well……for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?”
The Bishop takes care of God’s Church.

Paul writes to Timothy Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (2Tim 1:13) Paul has given Timothy sound teaching.
“Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.” (2Tim 1:14)
Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit. Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others.

“You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.” (2Tim 2:1-2)
So Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn. Then they will be able to teach others as well.

Thus we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.

Paul tells us who are the faithful people who are to be entrusted with this teaching:
Bishops – 1 Tim 3:1-7
Presbyters & Bishops – Ti 1:5-9
Deacons – 1 Tim 3:8-13
.



Men have to pick who will lead the Church. They may pick wisely or unwisely. They may pick in a God led way or not. But whoever they pick they can pass on the authority they have been given.

It’s the same in the secular world. A Police chief will select people to be policemen. He may pick wisely or unwisely but good cops and bad cops have the same authority to arrest people.

You are talking about the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I already explained by Peter had to be there. It was because he received the keys of the kingdom - he would be the one who opened the door of the kingdom for the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles.

You continue to miss what I state. When Elisha desired the anointing that Elijah had (his authority that God gave him), Elijah gave him instructions as to what he had to do. Elijah couldn't just give him the authority. It was something that God alone could give. We can choose leaders, we can select them based on their character, but God alone can give his authority to a person, just as he alone can remove it as he did with Saul.

Men have to pick who will lead the Church. They may pick wisely or unwisely. They may pick in a God led way or not. But whoever they pick they can pass on the authority they have been given.

It’s the same in the secular world. A Police chief will select people to be policemen. He may pick wisely or unwisely but good cops and bad cops have the same authority to arrest people.

Your example about the Police Chief is wanting. I would put God as the Police Chief - He doesn't make mistakes. He selects those who are willing, gives them authority, but if they abuse it, they lose it. And no policeman can just walk up to someone he knows and make them a policeman. That's something the top brass has to do.

 

[Mungo]

You are talking about the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I already explained by Peter had to be there. It was because he received the keys of the kingdom - he would be the one who opened the door of the kingdom for the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles.

You continue to miss what I state. When Elisha desired the anointing that Elijah had (his authority that God gave him), Elijah gave him instructions as to what he had to do. Elijah couldn't just give him the authority. It was something that God alone could give. We can choose leaders, we can select them based on their character, but God alone can give his authority to a person, just as he alone can remove it as he did with Saul.



Your example about the Police Chief is wanting. I would put God as the Police Chief - He doesn't make mistakes. He selects those who are willing, gives them authority, but if they abuse it, they lose it. And no policeman can just walk up to someone he knows and make them a policeman. That's something the top brass has to do.

Zebrahug,

I have given you many scriptures which you seem to ignore.

You have given me none but are just stating your opinions.

I see no point in continuing such as one-sided discussion


Regarding the police Chief- who appointed him? He is not the top of the chain of authority as God is.

But let me give you another example from the Bible.

Take the example of the centurion with the sick servant in Mt 8:5-10. The Centurion approaches Jesus and asks him to cure his servant.

Verse 9 For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes.

Ultimately the Centurions authority comes from Caeser himself.

The Centurion has authority because of his rank, given him by those above him. I don't know the exact structure of the Roman Army but above the Centurion would be a Commander and above him a General and ultimately his authority comes from Caesar himself. But Caesar did not appoint people to every level of the structure. he appointed the generals and they appointed the commanders, who apppointed the centurions and so on. Each level was given a certain level of authority by the person above. I know that in this example Caesar continues to appoint Generals but that was because we was still present on earth. Jesus is not but he left Peter (& hence his succesors) to be his representative on earth and make such decisions, along with his brother bishops.
I can give you the scriptural arguments for that if you want them.

 

[KingJ]

Guess when God Jesus and the Holy Spirit where around.

" in the begining "

Guess who I would rather trust....

In all His Love

How do you know a demon isn't speaking to you? We test those voices in our head against scripture. Otherwise why have scripture?

No. One is an imperfect book, the other is a perfect being. The book cannot make you alive. It can only point you in the right direction.

You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them [but you don't], and it is these that testify about me. And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. John 5:39-40

Sorry to jump back, but you said the bible is an imperfect book . I agree with the underlined and your post # 20 '' It would be far better to not have ever read the bible and do the will of GOD, than to have studied it all one's life and not do the will of GOD''.

Care to explain better why you say the bible is an imperfect book?

Men have to pick who will lead the Church. They may pick wisely or unwisely. They may pick in a God led way or not. But whoever they pick they can pass on the authority they have been given.

It’s the same in the secular world. A Police chief will select people to be policemen. He may pick wisely or unwisely but good cops and bad cops have the same authority to arrest people.

Both you and Zebra are saying the same thing imho. Rom 13:1 says all authoirty is appointed by God. But as we know with an election, if we don't vote....

Thanks for the effort in post # 69. Made for a good read.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry to jump back, but you said the bible is an imperfect book . I agree with the underlined and your post # 20 '' It would be far better to not have ever read the bible and do the will of GOD, than to have studied it all one's life and not do the will of GOD''.
Care to explain better why you say the bible is an imperfect book?

The 'bible' was perfect in the original forms the various writings were written. What we have now are very good and sufficient reproductions, but copying mistakes and errors have crept in that make them imperfect. Also, translations themselves introduce another layer of errors because not everything is white and black, so to speak.

What we do have, though, is more than sufficient for what we need.

 

[KingJ]

The 'bible' was perfect in the original forms the various writings were written. What we have now are very good and sufficient reproductions, but copying mistakes and errors have crept in that make them imperfect. Also, translations themselves introduce another layer of errors because not everything is white and black, so to speak.

What we do have, though, is more than sufficient for what we need.

Ok, thanks. Agreed :).

 

[Groundzero]

How do you know a demon isn't speaking to you? We test those voices in our head against scripture. Otherwise why have scripture?


Sorry to jump back, but you said the bible is an imperfect book . I agree with the underlined and your post # 20 '' It would be far better to not have ever read the bible and do the will of GOD, than to have studied it all one's life and not do the will of GOD''.

Care to explain better why you say the bible is an imperfect book?


Both you and Zebra are saying the same thing imho. Rom 13:1 says all authoirty is appointed by God. But as we know with an election, if we don't vote....

Thanks for the effort in post # 69. Made for a good read.

I beg to differ. I don't agree that God-given authority cannot be passed on from person to person in regards to spiritual things, especially in regards to this statement: " And the apostles passed on that authority to their sucessors and they passed it on to their succesors in an unbroken line to the Catholic Bishops of today."

This statement stemmed from this verse: Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Now that I've gone back and actually studied the verse, I'm prepared to say that Jesus wasn't referring at all to authority. For heaven's sake, if you're going to use Scripture, put it in it's context!

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus isn't referring to authority, he's referring to praying for something. If the body of Believers (who he addresses earlier on), can't agree on something, then it will remain bound on earth AND in heaven, and vice versa. Just as we must forgive others in order to be forgiven. Jesus confirms in the following verse, that for a prayer to be answered, two must agree (this is not to say that one's prayer on his own won't be answered).
This passage of Scripture has got nothing to do with the passing on of God-given authority.

It's been stated that I haven't used Scripture to back up my 'claims'. What claims? My claim is that another claim is not true. There is NO evidence of the apostolic authority being passed on to other people, much less in an unbroken line to that which is now the Roman Catholic church. I doubt that severely, for if there were men of the Apostolic authority, this world would be getting turned upside down, which says something about us: We're not doing close to enough.

 

[Mungo]

I beg to differ. I don't agree that God-given authority cannot be passed on from person to person in regards to spiritual things, especially in regards to this statement: " And the apostles passed on that authority to their sucessors and they passed it on to their succesors in an unbroken line to the Catholic Bishops of today."

This statement stemmed from this verse: Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Now that I've gone back and actually studied the verse, I'm prepared to say that Jesus wasn't referring at all to authority. For heaven's sake, if you're going to use Scripture, put it in it's context!

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus isn't referring to authority, he's referring to praying for something. If the body of Believers (who he addresses earlier on), can't agree on something, then it will remain bound on earth AND in heaven, and vice versa. Just as we must forgive others in order to be forgiven. Jesus confirms in the following verse, that for a prayer to be answered, two must agree (this is not to say that one's prayer on his own won't be answered).
This passage of Scripture has got nothing to do with the passing on of God-given authority.

It's been stated that I haven't used Scripture to back up my 'claims'. What claims? My claim is that another claim is not true. There is NO evidence of the apostolic authority being passed on to other people, much less in an unbroken line to that which is now the Roman Catholic church. I doubt that severely, for if there were men of the Apostolic authority, this world would be getting turned upside down, which says something about us: We're not doing close to enough.

I haven't mentioned that verse so why are you making an issue of it?

I have given you many points pieces of scripture but you just ignore them.

You appear to have nothing new to offer so I wish you shalom!

 

[Groundzero]

I haven't mentioned that verse so why are you making an issue of it?

I have given you many points pieces of scripture but you just ignore them.

You appear to have nothing new to offer so I wish you shalom!

You mentioned it in post #51.

I have answered them, but you have failed to redress my answers. Moreover, you have failed to defend your stupendous statement: " And the apostles passed on that authority to their sucessors and they passed it on to their succesors in an unbroken line to the Catholic Bishops of today." That was post #53.

 

[Mungo]

You mentioned it in post #51.

You are correct. I didn't check back far enough.

My apologies

I have answered them, but you have failed to redress my answers. Moreover, you have failed to defend your stupendous statement: " And the apostles passed on that authority to their sucessors and they passed it on to their succesors in an unbroken line to the Catholic Bishops of today." That was post #53.

I went through this in post #69, with more in post #78 & #80

 

[KingJ]

....

 

[Groundzero]

You are correct. I didn't check back far enough.

My apologies



I went through this in post #69, with more in post #78 & #80

No worries.

I guess there's not much left to say. :)
Other than it was nice having a civil discussion.