Overview time line chart of the 7 years

[Spiritual Israelite]

Great to hear, some people do not understand Paul and Peter went at it, debated, and that is how they resolved issues at times. I think we should look more to John on prophetic lingo, because Paul was not given that gift per se, John was. I think in letters Paul gave his interpretation of Dan. 9:27, and Matt. 24:15, but I think John was given the full details. So, when Paul says he (AC/Man of Sin) will sit in the temple, I do not per se agree with that (he might....but not at the 1290 AoD). That one sentence/verse now has everyone believing the AoD can only be the AC/Beast when in truth he is only allowed to go forth conquering 30 days later at the 1260 middle of the week events (DOLT/God's Wrath falls).

So, that is how important proper interpretation is, we have to get it right. Was Paul 100% correct on this? No, because we know the AC can not go forth conquering until day 1260 (this is also why knowing what the 1290 and 1335 are is so very, vert important) and the 1290 happens 30 days before the 1260 event. It is used by God to warn the 1/3 or 5 million Jews who repent to flee Judea unto the Jordanian Mountains. We can see in Matt. 24:15-17 that Jesus seems to point to this being an IMAGE that stands where it ought not to stand. And in Rev. 13 John is shown with clarity that the 2nd Beast (False Prophet) gets the peoples (the 2/3 Jews who refuse to repent) to make AN IMAGE of the first Beast (AC/Little Horn) and to place it in the temple. So, the AoD is committed by the False Prophet not the AC who can not conquer Israel until the 1260, which comes 30 days later. So, Israel gets a 30 day window to flee Judea. Can't you see the logic in that? Most can, but still say, WELL..........I always believed this way and Paul says it is so. Well, John said different and it fits, Jesus REVEALED this t John and in Matt. 24:15 Jesus sees to says its an item that is placed in the holy place that defiles it, not a man.

This is outrageous! Do you not understand that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote his letters that are part of the New Testament? And you are saying he was wrong? That means you're saying the Holy Spirit was wrong when inspiring Paul, but corrected Himself when inspiring John? That's nonsense! You can't just pick and choose which scriptures you accept and which you don't. You need to reconcile them all together because they are all 100% accurate and true.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It doesn't really matter who translated ἀφίστημι as departure. The usage of the word in every instance, both classical and kione define the word as an apostacy from faith or a rebellion against government. It is never used as a departure from a location. This confines the word to a departure from faith in this context.

You are arguing/debating from a losing position brother. We no only have the word as departure in English 7 times before it became a "Falling Away" but for 1100 years in the Latin Vulgate it was discessio, or a Departure also. And the Koine Greek had a definite article in the passage, which mean Paul was specifically pointing to something, and that something was a gathering unto Christ Jesus in the first verse.

Let me give you the counter reasoning why this doesn't click for you.

Lets say we are in the year 3029, and two men are debating about a 1923 book that stated everyone at the "party was gay" and guy 1 tells guy 2 that everyone in the whole room were homosexuals or lesbians and guy 2 says, No...........no.........no, that word meant happy in 1923, but guy 1 persists and shows him books in 2025, 2177, 2512, 2777 and 2988 that all described gay as being a homosexual person.

Well, who is correct? Both, but how can guy 2 convince guy one that before the word was used fir homosexual peoples, it simply mean a happy person?

The word was DEPARTURE not a Falling Away, and the only thing spoken about in the passage that matches the context is the Gathering together unto Christ Jesus.

Look at the context of "wrath" in 1Th. It is clearly dealing with the lack of salvation as that is the context.

1 Th 5:9-11 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,(This is a wrath opposite of salvation, as in we have escaped eternal damnation)

Those SAVED (The Thessalonians in Christ) will not go through God's Wrath seems to be Paul's point.

There are ZERO passages that prove a pre-trib rapture. Every single one can be properly translated from a post-trib/pre wrath position.

The whole bible proves it, Jesus came fir Israel, not the Gentiles, it was thus given to Paul to reveal, he did in 2 Thess. 2 and elsewhere. John in Revelation makes it east to see but one has to be able to see coded language there or put the timelines together. He also gave Israel and US NOW the 7 Feasts that show the whole history of the world in 7 Feasts. Jesus fulfilled the First Three as a Jewish sacrifice. Hes now fulfilling the Summer (GENTILE) Harvest. He will fulfill the Fall Feasts soon, and the LAST TRUMP end the Gentile Church Age.......Summer Harvesting of Souls. The Feast of Trumps ALLWAYS ENDED the harvest. The Atonement comes next and we know Israel has to repent before Jesus' return because Jesus at the end of Matt. 23 says they will call him King as he returns. The Feast of Tabernacles point to Jesus ruling in the midst of his brothers.

I might not could dig it out.............but if I was shown this as a young Christian I could see it.

No...we only see TWO harvests. The 144,000 are not harvested in ch14. Where do you see that in the text? You see, this is the problem I have with this contrivance. You are using reasoning filtered through your paradigm and forcing it into the text.

The 144,000 are Virgins meaning they are in Christ. Of course Jesus rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years during the Kingdom Age. The fact the 1/3 accept Jesus then he returns to ser up the Kingdom Age with them is a Harvest. Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. There is no reason for a flashback to even be there, unless its The Harvest Chapter, because its not a part of the "real timeline".

Mt 13:36-43 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

SEE THAT? The Reapers are the Angels, but only about the Wheat & Tares. We know Jesus thrusts in the cycle in Rev. 14 and reaps the Church from upon a Cloud.

I am sure that whatever truth I present, can be wrested, twisted and misinterpreted into some pre-trib myth. People can be quite inventive.

Yes, I can show why your first hunch was correct. (on Pre Trib. Smile)

This is where we end the conversation. I mean, you have decoded the entire book of revelation and now see it with a clarity that others do not. How can one possibly disagree with that? Anything said against such a position will be seen as opposing God's light to you.

We can agree to disagree. We have both wasted too much time on something we will never agree on.

This should not be a surprise, God stated He was goig to reveal all at the veey end. When I was 25 whilst others were partying or whatever, I was spending time alone with God, and I still was not given the key to understanding it until I heard a now passed preacher (RIP) say that of the 413 verses in the book of Revelation, 289 used Old Testament verbiage. He said its just a big code book and the codes are in the old testament.

When the Germans were sending coded messages we could not understand anything we intercepted, but after we solved the code, it was an easy interpretation.

 

[ewq1938]

You are arguing/debating from a losing position brother.

No, you are. The definition of apostasia cannot be altered by you. It means Apostasy. It does not mean physically leaving. It is when most of the church accepts and worships the AC. No coincidence that Pretrib has changed it into departing in a rapture.

 

[covenantee]

We no only have the word as departure in English 7 times before it became a "Falling Away" but for 1100 years in the Latin Vulgate it was discessio, or a Departure also.

Why do you continue to perpetuate this falsehood?

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is nonexistent.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

 

[shepherdsword]

You are arguing/debating from a losing position brother. We no only have the word as departure in English 7 times before it became a "Falling Away" but for 1100 years in the Latin Vulgate it was discessio, or a Departure also. And the Koine Greek had a definite article in the passage, which mean Paul was specifically pointing to something, and that something was a gathering unto Christ Jesus in the first verse.

This would be so terribly dishonest.(if it wasn't so downright silly) Yes it used "discessio" let's look at how they translated it. This is a direct translation from the Vulgate:

ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. translation: Douay-Rheims (from the Latin Vulgate)

As we can see even the translators of the Douay-Rheims(English from Latin bible) rendered it as "revolt". You keep claiming some sort of victory when every argument you raise concerning the definition of ἀποστασία is refuted, disproven and smashed. You have proven to be biased in your research and your stark denial of reality. I know you feel like you have some special divine light on this issue. I would caution you to re examine that. Your definition of ἀποστασία has been proven false. I see no need to continue.
Blessings

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, Christians are not appointed to go through the great tribulation.

Correction: The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 Is NOT the Wrath of God

Many Christians, like you, mistakenly equate the Great Tribulation with the wrath of God, but Scripture clearly distinguishes the two. They are not the same event, and confusing them leads to serious doctrinal error.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you continue to perpetuate this falsehood?

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is nonexistent.

Departing away as a synonym of dissension thus means departing away from the faith, i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe identified the man of sin as the apostate papal antichrist, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred.

From Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture of which he had never heard, and which of course had never occurred..
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who considered the word to mean anything other than departure from the faith.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

This is nothing more than a shameless twisting of scripture by pre-tribs to try to turn the "apostasia" Paul talked about into a reference to the departure of the church instead of what it obviously represents, which is a mass departure (falling away) from the faith.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, you are. The definition of apostasia cannot be altered by you. It means Apostasy. It does not mean physically leaving. It is when most of the church accepts and worships the AC. No coincidence that Pretrib has changed it into departing in a rapture.

No sir, you bought into the people who changed and morphed the meaning. Now you are saying I am try to change back what was changed. That is what it really amounts unto.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Many Christians, like you, mistakenly equate the Great Tribulation with the wrath of God, but Scripture clearly distinguishes the two. They are not the same event, and confusing them leads to serious doctrinal error.

Of course it is, the 1/3 who repented and fled Judea will not be in it. That is what God means in Rev. 18:4 when He says come out of her (Babylon.....The World) lest you partake in her plagues. Now, I don't just say things I can't prove. I know what you are saying, but you conflate the truth as thus, there is a Wrath of God and Satan's Anti-Christ brings Tribulation....that about the gist of it? Well, it can be shown that the AC is the agent doing God's will.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Have you never wondered why God will not allow the AC to go forth conquering until the Middle of the Week Wrath starts via the 1st Trump, the Seals are PROPHETIC UTTERANCE about the soon to come Wrath in Rev. 8, that is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 it UNSEALS the SEALED Trumpet Judgments or looses them, like a Sealed Message/Letter can only be opened when all the Wax Signet Seals have been broken.

Seals is God in Heaven/Jesus showing the Church in Heaven, after the start of the 70th week but before the 1260 middle of the week, how Seals 1-5 = the AC and Seal 6 = God's full wrath. All 6 are pointing to God's Wrath and thus Seal #6 matches Trumps 1-4 and Seals 1-5 matches Rev. 13.

The TROUBLES LIKE NEVER SEEN BEFORE are a 1260 day period of time, after an Asteroid hits, thus cause the USA to pull back, we are the ones who get judged by this asteroid impact the 1/3 = the New World. The USA being busy allows the E.U. Anti-Christ to go forth conquering without pushback from the USA who has a hand in everything usually. So, it all goes hand in hand.

 

[ewq1938]

No sir, you bought into the people who changed and morphed the meaning.

No, mine is the actual Greek definition of the word. Yours is the corrupted, false meaning. apostasia means apostasy not a physical departure. It's a moral departure.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This would be so terribly dishonest.(if it wasn't so downright silly) Yes it used "discessio" let's look at how they translated it. This is a direct translation from the Vulgate:

I understand how MEN TRANSLATED it, that is the problem. I do not care what men not of God per se says, but only what Paul meant and he meant departed [from this earth] verse 1 proves this is what he was pointing unto my friend. The Pharisees also bought into men's traditions, so Jesus told them about the true scriptures meanings at time, saying beware of men's traditions.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. translation: Douay-Rheims (from the Latin Vulgate)

The above is my point, you are allowing men who were around over 1500 years after the passage was written to tell you it means a revolt from the faith when it does not fit. The point I was making about Revelation is it is very, very hard for people to comprehend/understand. So, when basic questions like this come up, I try to show I do not just guess brother, I went 30 years without ever saying things I say now, because I don't put forth guesses as facts. Most people can not even see the chronological order of Rev. and therefore can not see it fir what it is in full. You have an Order then you have Parenthetical chapters.

Rev. 1 is Jesus as seen in all his Eternal Glory

Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age (remember how God uses numbers continually, its important) and the number 7 here = Divine Completion. These are the THINGS THAT ARE (Church Age). In Rev. 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21 we see THINGS that will happen to those who OVERCOME, gifts they will be given after death, they or we will get a Crown of Life, we will get White Raiment (robes) and we will sit at God's Throne (remember this). So, when Rev. 2 and 3 ends the Church Age Ends and the 70th week starts.

SEE BELOW WE GET A TRANSITION......I don't paste a lot of verses but these 2 are a must.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet (LAST TRUMP/Harvest Ends/Church Age Ends) talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Or AFTER the Church Age Ends)

Now, lets see how these people in heaven fulfill the Rev. 2:10, 3:5 and 3:21 verses I cited above.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

This is God speak, He is SHOUTING this is the Church in heaven, they have on the Crowns, they have on the White Robes and they sit at my Throne in heaven. The 24 Elders is another code, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. In Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 God calls us Kings and Priests. We tge church are the 24 Elders, with WHITE ROBES on, with CROWNS and sitting at God's THRONE all promises to those Church members who OVERCOMAME unto death.

In Rev. 4 & 5 we see God the Father and God the Son praised by us the Church in heaven. We were Redeemed by his blood Rev. 5:9-10 says and Angels can't be redeemed.


Everything up to this point is still in Chronological Order as are 6, 7, 8 and 9.

Rev. 6 is NOT JUDGMENTS !! They are Jesus telling the Church in heaven what is about to befall mankind on earth. Seals 1-5 shows the soon to come ACs actions, and Seal #6 shows God's soon to come Wrath. BUT....God first has to get the 1/3 saved and protected, thus Rev. 7 has to happen BEFORE Gods wrath can fall, that is why the 7th Seal is not opened until hey got Sealed, if people would just read the words they could see it...HURT NOT the Earth Sea nor Trees until the 144,000 (code for 5 Million Jews) are Sealed meaning Saved AND Protected in Petra. So Rev. 7 has to fall between the seals and Trumps.

Wrath starts once Israel is saved and the 1/3 (5 Million Jews) flee Judea

Rev. 8 is the First Four Trumps they are ONE EVENT an Asteroid Impact. We can see that by how they are described. Fire always comes in first, trees burn as it comes apart, this is how Sodom was destroyed. Then we see the IMPACT (as if it was an great earthquake and a rock on fire hit the earth). In Trump #3 we see the rivers get poisoned, think FALLOUT. Finally in Trump #4 we see the Sun and Moon going dark, of course all the smoke dims the sunlight as Seal #6 FORETOLD.

Rev. 9 is the First 2 Woes. Apollyon and his Demons are released. Then the Angels are the 200 Million that kill those 1/3 that took the Mark, not China men. Now we must skip to Rev. 16 to stay in chrono order.

Rev. 16 is the THIRD WOE, it is all 7 Vials Combined. These emit from the 7th Trump, thus the 7 Trumps deliver every judgment onto mankind. Jesus kills the AC in Rev. 16:19.

The rest are Parenthetical Citation Chapters that happen during Rev. 8, 9 ad 16's Timelines. That is why they all will basically have 1260 day time lines, THINK, the 1260 days in Rev. 12 that the Red Dragon chases the Woman (Israel). Or in Rev. 13, the Beast rules for 1260 days. In Rev. 11 the Two-witnesses witness for 1260 days. In Rev. 17 the Harlot is killed by the 10 Kings (Complete E.U.) who rule ONE HOUR (42 months) with the Beast. In Rev. 18 we see God Judges the World (Babylon = the Whole World under Satan's Dark Kingdom of Confusion) in ONE DAY and in ONE HOUR well we know that one hour means 42 months as does the Day of the Lord. So, in God lingo this chapter covers 42 months also.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, mine is the actual Greek definition of the word. Yours is the corrupted, false meaning. apostasia means apostasy not a physical departure. It's a moral departure.

Its departure, I have been called unto Prophecy over 40 years. You take an English translation, I take the original Greek which meant DEPARTURE. And the Rapture was being pointed unto in verse 1.

 

[ewq1938]

Its departure,

Yes, a moral departure.

I have been called unto Prophecy over 40 years.

No one cares and the huge mistakes you make shows those years are not nearly enough.

You take an English translation, I take the original Greek which meant DEPARTURE.

No, the Greek apostasia means apostasy which is a special form of departure like people abandoning God for another god.

And the Rapture was being pointed unto in verse 1.

Nope.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yes, a moral departure.




No one cares and the huge mistakes you make shows those years are not nearly enough.






No, the Greek apostasia means apostasy which is a special form of departure like people abandoning God for another god.




Nope.

Once you have someone claim a divine mandate for their errant view it's time to move on. They will deny any evidence that proves their position wrong. It's a waste of time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Its departure, I have been called unto Prophecy over 40 years. You take an English translation, I take the original Greek which meant DEPARTURE. And the Rapture was being pointed unto in verse 1.

It's a departure from the faith that Paul said had to happen first before the rapture. That's what the world "apostasia" means. A departure or falling away from faith. Not the departure of the church. A mass departure from the faith fits the context of what Paul wrote about in 2 Thesslonians 2. He wrote about a time when wickedness would no longer be restrained and a time of a significant increase in deception. Mass apostasy (falling away from the faith) is something you would expect would happen if wickedness is not being restrained.

 

[ewq1938]

Once you have someone claim a divine mandate for their errant view it's time to move on. They will deny any evidence that proves their position wrong. It's a waste of time.

Mostly.

The main reason why I reply is to make sure the silent majority of readers see the proper evidence and arguments. Otherwise as I said, the Apostasy is mandated to take place and there are many doctrines that will cause it to occur and the people promoting them ALL think they are gifted with special knowledge.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Yes, a moral departure.

Is the Falling Away a Misunderstanding (or False Teaching) ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the "false teachings of Catholicism".

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away [from the faith]. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth and both have to happen before God's Wrath can fall in the middle of the 70th week. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No one cares and the huge mistakes you make shows those years are not nearly enough.

Well, it should be relevant if a man has been called to preach 40 years AND his calling was specifically unto prophesy when called, not only of course, but who gets shown in a vision that the "The Man of Sin is here" then to back up this 40 year in the future vison gets shown Jimmy Swaggart is about to fall from Grace (he was preaching to 10 peoples in a huge auditorium, and 2 weeks later he was confessing and stepping aside from his ministry until he could reevaluate and repent.)

I mean if a welder is going to do a job, his 40 years experience would be relevant, if a mechanic is going t work on my car and says I have been doing this for 40 plus years, WOW, that is a great thing !! Only on message boards have I found out that being a preacher of 40 plus years means nothing to the lay men. Of course that makes no sense to me, which is why I added in half the book of Revelation's TIMELINES as a proof of my credentials, but alas, it is what it is. I was told by God via prayer (I better say holy spirt, some people do noy grasp its the sane thing, a three in one entity) that the reason we have so many different understandings/interpretations on things is because we heed MEN'S TRADITIONS that came from men, not from God per se, and when that happens, God then can't break through, and thus we get 100s of understandings on what Babylon is, who the 144,000 are, what the 7 heads and 10 horns mean et al. instead of ONE TRUE UNDERSANDING. So, all these guesses/bad teachings ae not of God, He desires the church to be led by the holy spirit and to have one truth/one answer, not many truths and many answers.

I care, I need truth to trump guesses.

No, the Greek apostasia means apostasy which is a special form of departure like people abandoning God for another god.

No it does not, it means DEPARTURE, what you do is use the interpreters position on what it means instead of digging into the facts of what it really means. I use a site online that has the links to all the numbered Strong's meanings as well as links to other interpretations as you will see apostasia was 2 words not one as you infer. SEE BELOW:

2:1 ¶ Now 1161 wee beseech 2065 z5719 you, 5209 brethren, 80 by 5228 the x3588 comming 3952 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 and 2532 by our 2257 gathering together 1997 vnto 1909 him, 846

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That y1519 yee 5209 bee y4531 z0 not 3361 soone 5030 shaken 4531 z5683 in 575 minde, 3563 or 3383 bee troubled, 2360 z5745 neither 3383 by 1223 spirit, 4151 nor 3383 by 1223 word, 3056 nor 3383 by 1223 letter, 1992 as 5613 from 1223 vs, 2257 as y5613 that 3754 the x3588 day 2250 of Christ 5547 is at hand, 1764 z5758

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let y1818 z0 no 3361 man 5100 deceiue 1818 z5661 you 5209 by 2596 any 3367 meanes, 5158 for 3754 [that day shall not come], except 3362 there come 2064 z5632 a falling away 646 first, 4412 and 2532 that man 444 of sinne 266 bee reuealed, 601 z5686 the x3588 sonne 5207 of perdition, 684


#0646 ἀποστασία apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}

feminine of the same as G0647; TDNT - 1:513,88; n f
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Feminine of the same as G0647; defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Now lets not look at the word's modern interpretation, but unto the TWO WORDS it was derived from. Apo and hestemi. Which I did in length in my blog above of 10 years ago.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

See how its THEIR INTERPETATION.......Saying it IMPLIES DEFECTION/DESERTION?

But alas, it literally says that it means a LEAVING from a PREVIOUS STANDING.

Now, as I show in my blog, nowhere is FAITH ever mentioned in the whole passage, but a Gathering together unto Christ Jesus was mentioned in the very first verse. Thus who would interpret this to mean a DEPARTURE from the faith (a certain STANDING) instead of a DEPARTURE from this world (a STANDING on this earth as the Church of Jesus Christ who will be GATHERED unto Christ, which is why vs. 1 says we beseech or ASK URGENTLY that you not fear you are in the DOTL/God's Wrath. because this is not possible, because it (DOTL) can not happen until The Departure [of the church on this earth] AND the Man of Sin is REVEALED [ He signs the Agreement with Israel ]......or Israel joins the E.U. So, Paul is making a simple statement, that some translators in the 1600s and others who buy in, have conflated into him saying ther must be a departure from the faith before the DOTL comes, instead of there will be a Departure of the church (which is why you should not fear) AND also, the Man of Sin must show up (at the beginning of the 70th week, thus BOTH HAPPEN before the DOTL can happen, which happens in the middle of the 70th week on day 1260.

You interpretation cam from the KJV translators, not from Paul, he used Apo and Hestemi as one word meaning a DEPARTURE from a STANDING, and he showed WHAT CHANGES that STANDING in vs. 1, the Rapture of the Church (a gathering unto Christ) but those who bought unto the KJV interpretation can not see its true meaning because of MEN'S TRADITIONS which overpowered the true meaning. Satan never stops trying to deceive. He tricked Adam & Eve with a simple phrase, "YE SHALT NOT SURELY DIE".

Nope.

See verse 1........ 2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Once you have someone claim a divine mandate for their errant view it's time to move on. They will deny any evidence that proves their position wrong. It's a waste of time.

You will see when you get to heaven brother, its all good. I have proven, as has Tommy Ice and Andy North that this whole defection idea is a misinterpretation. But there are 100s of passages that prove the pre trib. rapture besides this. When you are traveling through the air as a Spirit Man soon it will make perfect sense.

By the way, that is another false interpretation many have. We do not disappear at the pre trib. rapture, we simply die (one billion people or so since 5 of 10 virgins make the wedding and we have 2 billion Christians on earth at the present time) and our Spirit Man goes to be with the Lord. 1 Cor. 15 :42-52 explains this perfectly. In vs. 44 is clearly says we are raised as SPIRIT MEN, that is why vs. 50 says that our Flesh & Blood CANNOT enter heaven. So, when verses 51-52 says we must be CHANGED it means from Human form to a Spirit Man who can go to be with the Lord without the Sin Flesh.

Also, no one is in heaven as we speak, it clearly says "The Dead in Christ are RAISED without corruption meaning with no sin flesh.

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,(So, those alive have to be CHANGED because Sin Flesh or Corruption, can not enter heaven).

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(With no sin flesh), and we shall be changed(or LOSE our sin flesh).

Lets look at vs 44 closer.....It proves we are raised as SPIRIT MEN.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

My calling or bent is Prophetic Understandings and proper interpretations of other passages. I do nit buy int every interpretation passed down by men. So, how do I get these proper interpretations? I simply ask Gd to reveal His truths when contradictions arise.

EXAMPLE:

So, Dan. 7:11 states that the Beasts body will be DESTROYED and he will be cast into hellfire.

Rev. 19:20 says the Beast and False Prophet will be cast straight into hell.

So, what gives? God NEVER CONTRADICTS Himself, we just conflate and confuse His passages. I was told in prayer, whilst asking about the 100's of interpretations and why there is not just one interpretation, that we already know everything the exact quote in spirit was "Ron, you guys already know it all" and thus I understood what the holy spirit meant, we already had all the answers and this is why in these end times, when God said He would show us all things, that we have 100s of interpretations instead of just one true understanding. So, being the humble genius (pun intended) that I am, a light bulb went off !! It is END TIMES an God wants to tell us all these secret things He's had locked up NOW, so why don't I just simply ASK HIM to show me and NEVER STOP until He gives me the answer, God loved that Jacob wrestled with Him. God loved that Moses, Arron and Joshua held up the staff by faith to win the battle. God wants us to ACT on all things by Faith. Since I knew He wanted to reveal all things in the end, I simply started asking for understandings on those heretofore locked up understandings, whilst many are just repeating things learned from other men BEFORE God was ready to reveal all these things !!

So, when I asked God ( like we all did with the Gospels, remember how it all just flooded in? ) He started giving me these type answers to the above EXAMPLE. How can both verses be true? )

Well, the Beast is indeed KILLED. But we as human being were created as eternal beings (in God's Image) and thus even as we rest in the grave we are never dead in Spirit only in body, as the 2nd Resurrection proves, they rest in their graves and are judged after Jesus' 1000 year reign on earth, BUT ALAS the Beast and False Prophet will nit be allowed to rest or sleep in graves until the 2nd Resurrection, they will be cast ALIVE as in as soon as their bodies die, into hellfire, and after the 1000 years Satan will be cast into hell with them, and all the rest of the wicked men who loved evil over God.

So, their never was a contradiction, it was just is not understanding God lingo. Paul's letters were not even meant by him to be Thus Saith the Lord scriptures, this sometimes he was not clear because if he had already explained something in person, he would just half explain and say remember when I was with you I told you these things? Thus we do not get fully vetted out passages that are always clear.

My job is to teach and preach, its what I do, people can accept it or not. Many of the prophets were killed in their line of duty. It is what it is, we still gave to obey God as Ezekiel 3:18 says as men of God.

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

So, I must always share the truth brother, its my calling. God Bless.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, it should be relevant if a man has been called to preach 40 years AND his calling was specifically unto prophesy when called, not only of course, but who gets shown in a vision that the "The Man of Sin is here" then to back up this 40 year in the future vison gets shown Jimmy Swaggart is about to fall from Grace (he was preaching to 10 peoples in a huge auditorium, and 2 weeks later he was confessing and stepping aside from his ministry until he could reevaluate and repent.)

I mean if a welder is going to do a job, his 40 years experience would be relevant, if a mechanic is going t work on my car and says I have been doing this for 40 plus years, WOW, that is a great thing !! Only on message boards have I found out that being a preacher of 40 plus years means nothing to the lay men.

If you are doing nothing but preaching falsehood for 40 years, as you do with your false pretrib dispensationalist beliefs, what good is that? None. You should step aside and let those who actually have spiritual discernment do the preaching on end times doctrine instead of denying the truth post-trib and denying that the apostasy Paul referred to is a departure or falling away from the faith.