P.S.A. Are we sure?

[lukethreesix]

Penal Substitutionary Atonement:

We would all agree that Christ atoned for sin. "To make good", he sure has and surely will.

Did he pay the price for sin? YES!
What was/is the price for sin?

Was he a substitute? Died "in place of"?
If the price for sin is eternal seperation From God, did he pay that price? Why not?
If a physical death is the penalty, and we all sin, and we all die then that makes sense. Of course, the penalty ends after the price is paid. We took Jesus with us in Death, so He takes us with Him in the Resurrection.

If a spiritual death is the penalty, and we all sin, we are all spiritually separated from God until atonement takes place.

If Jesus was our substitute, He would have to physically die, which He did. He would also have to be spiritually separatedd from God, which He was. But not eternally, but until atonement was made.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, lukethreesix.

Penal Substitutionary Atonement:

We would all agree that Christ atoned for sin. "To make good", he sure has and surely will.

Did he pay the price for sin? YES!
What was/is the price for sin?

Was he a substitute? Died "in place of"?
If the price for sin is eternal seperation From God, did he pay that price? Why not?
If a physical death is the penalty, and we all sin, and we all die then that makes sense. Of course, the penalty ends after the price is paid. We took Jesus with us in Death, so He takes us with Him in the Resurrection.

If a spiritual death is the penalty, and we all sin, we are all spiritually separated from God until atonement takes place.

If Jesus was our substitute, He would have to physically die, which He did. He would also have to be spiritually separatedd from God, which He was. But not eternally, but until atonement was made.

His separation from God during His crucifixion can indeed be infinite in nature. We are finite creatures that must be separated from God eternally, which is infinite time. But, an infinite being endured the crucifixion for a finite amount of time, and that makes it infinite in nature. Weren't all of our sins in the future when the Messiah died on the cross? And yet, He had died for OUR sins.

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (traded places with) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (trading places);
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling (trading places with) the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (subject of trading places).
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to (trade places with) God.
21 For he (God) hath made him (Christ; Messiah) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (Christ; Messiah).
KJV

 

[lukethreesix]

Reconciled does not mean "trade places"? It means "to make good" or "bring to right". When Jesus tells us to be reconciled to our brother, he is not saying to "trade places" with him.

The whole point of Jesus coming is that He left heaven, stopped being "God" and became "one of us".
Jesus dying "in place of" our sins as a "substitute" would mean: Jesus died so we don't have to. But we do have to, all will die because of Adam, and because of Jesus, all will be resurrected. If Jesus died "in our place", we wouldn't. Its more like this: Jesus, being a friend, takes our hand through death. He goes "with us" in death, so we can go with Him in life.

The question was not answered: what is the penalty for sin? "The wages of sin is death", He paid that penalty. With your train of thought we could say, "Jesus being an infinite being, just suffferingsuffering was like death to Him. He didn't really have to die a physical death because we finite beings have to doesn't mean an infinite being has to, He died enough just to suffer." Would that make any sense? No!

Well, saying that: "Jesus didn't really have to be seperated forever, even though that (supposedly) is the penalty, and even though the Bible says Jesus paid the full penalty for sin, He really didn't have to because He was infinite, so He could get away with paying not the whole price for sin sin, but being credited as if He did."
That makes no sense and takes away from His humanity, and takes away from all He truly accomplished on the cross.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, lukethreesix.

Reconciled does not mean "trade places"? It means "to make good" or "bring to right". When Jesus tells us to be reconciled to our brother, he is not saying to "trade places" with him.

The whole point of Jesus coming is that He left heaven, stopped being "God" and became "one of us".
Jesus dying "in place of" our sins as a "substitute" would mean: Jesus died so we don't have to. But we do have to, all will die because of Adam, and because of Jesus, all will be resurrected. If Jesus died "in our place", we wouldn't. Its more like this: Jesus, being a friend, takes our hand through death. He goes "with us" in death, so we can go with Him in life.

The question was not answered: what is the penalty for sin? "The wages of sin is death", He paid that penalty. With your train of thought we could say, "Jesus being an infinite being, just suffferingsuffering was like death to Him. He didn't really have to die a physical death because we finite beings have to doesn't mean an infinite being has to, He died enough just to suffer." Would that make any sense? No!

Well, saying that: "Jesus didn't really have to be seperated forever, even though that (supposedly) is the penalty, and even though the Bible says Jesus paid the full penalty for sin, He really didn't have because He was infinite, so He could get away with paying not the whole price for sin sin, but being credited as if He did."
That makes no sense and takes away from His humanity, and takes away from all He truly accomplished on the cross.

Sigh. Okay, look:

Here's the Greek of the passage:

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Hooste ei tis en Christoo, kainee ktisis; ta archaia pareelthen, idou gegonen kaina.
18 Ta de panta ek tou Theou tou katallaxantos (from katallassoo) heemas heautoo dia Christou kai dontos heemin teen diakonian tees katallagees (from katallagee),
19 hoos hoti Theos een en Christoo kosmos katallassoon (from katallassoo) heautoo, mee logizomenos autois ta paraptoomata autoon kai themenos en heemin ton logon tees katallagees (from katallagee).
20 Huper Christou oun presbeuomen hoos tou Theou parakalountos di’ heemoon; deometha huper Christou, katallageete (from katallassoo) too Theoo.
21 Ton mee gnonta hamartian huper heemoon hamartian epoieesen, hina heemeis genoometha dikaiosunee Theou en autoo.
The Greek New Testament

NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

NT:2644 katallasso (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
KJV - reconcile.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It DOES mean to "exchange places," to "trade places!" Yeshua` became our sin for us while we become God's righteousness in Him. It's not fair, but THAT'S the trade! THAT'S what gives us peace with God! That is what makes God's declaration of us as JUSTIFIED possible!

Some call this "being saved," but the actual terminology is "being justified by God." God DECLARES us "righteous," despite our sin because of what Yeshua` did on our behalf. God also declared Yeshua` OUR "SIN" when HE put Him to death on the cross! He wasn't destroying His Son; He was destroying our SIN!

 

[lukethreesix]

Amen! Jesus justifies all men JUST AS Adam condemned all men (ROM 5:18, 1 COR 15:22).

I don't think you have understood my question?
What EXACTLY is the penalty for sin? (Scripture please...)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, lukethreesix.

Amen! Jesus justifies all men JUST AS Adam condemned all men (ROM 5:18, 1 COR 15:22).

I don't think you have understood my question?
What EXACTLY is the penalty for sin? (Scripture please...)

Sure.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages (paycheck) of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Revelation 20:7-15
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE.
KJV

 

[lukethreesix]

That's not the end....
all things are created new (restored) and the tree of life reintroduced with its leaves of healing. Then all those who were cast into the LOF are outside open gates being invited in to drink of Life.

Awesome God, awesome plan.

 

[Angelina]

If Jesus was our substitute, He would have to physically die, which He did. He would also have to be spiritually separatedd from God, which He was. But not eternally, but until atonement was made.

You misunderstand Christ's work on the cross....He came down from heaven in the form of a man to die on behalf of man. He did not originate from earth but from heaven and he was without sin. The "not eternally" part of your premise suggests that his separation was not forever...this is true only in the sense that by his death and resurrection, those who believe in Christ by faith can also have eternal life. Eternal life was first initiated for mankind by Jesus' death and resurrection on the cross because he was the first fruit of the living...

 

[lukethreesix]

if the wages of sin is a physical death, then Jesus paid it in FULL.
But, if the wages of sin is eternal seperation from the Father, then Jesus did NOT pay it in FULL.

so are the wages of sin a physical death?
or eternal seperation?

When God told Adam he was going to die, did he really mean to say eternal torture by fire?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, lukethreesix.

That's not the end....
all things are created new (restored) and the tree of life reintroduced with its leaves of healing. Then all those who were cast into the LOF are outside open gates being invited in to drink of Life.

Awesome God, awesome plan.

Prove it. Where are YOUR Scriptures?

 

[Angelina]

if the wages of sin is a physical death, then Jesus paid it in FULL.

He came down in the form of flesh and blood and paid the penalty in full for those who are flesh and blood who believe in him by faith.

 

[lukethreesix]

Angelina, are we in agreement then? The penalty for sin is a physical death (flesh and blood), not eternal separation.


Retro, you stopped at the end of chapter 20. Just read the rest of the book, there are two more chapters.

 

[Forsakenone]

Had interesting conversation yesterday about working out one's own salvation with fear and trembling,
he said it was unscriptural to work one's own salvation out with fear and trembling?

And I agreed with him. Yet he claimed that I said he was right, and I said yes I did, if you going to
work out your own salvation, you better do it fear in trembling if that is what your told.

I hear that it can neither be by my faith nor by my works, for which I boast.
I've been up and I've been down, take my word I have been around.

whosoever is born of God cannot sin, that is the truth written within
born of the Spirit and of the Word, not from a lie that has to be heard.

I wished him well on his works in frustration, and returned back in my celebration.

 

[Quantrill]

Reconciled does not mean "trade places"? It means "to make good" or "bring to right". When Jesus tells us to be reconciled to our brother, he is not saying to "trade places" with him.

The whole point of Jesus coming is that He left heaven, stopped being "God" and became "one of us".
Jesus dying "in place of" our sins as a "substitute" would mean: Jesus died so we don't have to. But we do have to, all will die because of Adam, and because of Jesus, all will be resurrected. If Jesus died "in our place", we wouldn't. Its more like this: Jesus, being a friend, takes our hand through death. He goes "with us" in death, so we can go with Him in life.

The question was not answered: what is the penalty for sin? "The wages of sin is death", He paid that penalty. With your train of thought we could say, "Jesus being an infinite being, just suffferingsuffering was like death to Him. He didn't really have to die a physical death because we finite beings have to doesn't mean an infinite being has to, He died enough just to suffer." Would that make any sense? No!

Well, saying that: "Jesus didn't really have to be seperated forever, even though that (supposedly) is the penalty, and even though the Bible says Jesus paid the full penalty for sin, He really didn't have to because He was infinite, so He could get away with paying not the whole price for sin sin, but being credited as if He did."
That makes no sense and takes away from His humanity, and takes away from all He truly accomplished on the cross.

First of all, The Son never stopped being God. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. The God Man. 100% God. 100% Man.

Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin which was death.

Even though we have placed faith in Christ, and are born-again, it is our spirit that is born again. This fleshly body is that which we have inheirtied from Adam. It is still under condemnation, and it is still that which will die. We will get a new body, but this we got from Adam must die.

No, Jesus doesn't just take our hand through our death. Sounds real sweet but terribly wrong. We are identified in Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 " Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with hinm by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

The question was answered. The penalty for sin is death. And Jesus paid it.

Now, the question of eternal life. Jesus paying the penalty for sin removed the sin problem in the believer. 'Only' in the believer because it is only those who believe, those who exercise faith, who come under Christ's sacrifice. But God is interested also in the believers having life eternal. And, guess what? That too is obtained in the 'faith' exercised by the believer. John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So, the removal of sin and life eternal are promised to those who place faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, everyone is resurrected, but not to eternal life. Many to eternal death. Because it is only obtained by faith. And once you are there, it can no more be by faith.

Quantrill

 

[Angelina]

Angelina, are we in agreement then? The penalty for sin is a physical death (flesh and blood), not eternal separation.

Lukethreesix,
Do not twist my words... The penalty for sin is death. The bible says that after death comes judgment.The second death without Christ in your life... is the lake of fire.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, lukethreesix.

Angelina, are we in agreement then? The penalty for sin is a physical death (flesh and blood), not eternal separation.


Retro, you stopped at the end of chapter 20. Just read the rest of the book, there are two more chapters.

You mean like ...

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

and ...

Revelation 21:27
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV

and ...

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without (outside) are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV?

Shalom, Forsakenone (or maybe, NOT-SO-Forsakenone?)

Had interesting conversation yesterday about working out one's own salvation with fear and trembling,
he said it was unscriptural to work one's own salvation out with fear and trembling?

And I agreed with him. Yet he claimed that I said he was right, and I said yes I did, if you going to
work out your own salvation, you better do it fear in trembling if that is what your told.

I hear that it can neither be by my faith nor by my works, for which I boast.
I've been up and I've been down, take my word I have been around.

whosoever is born of God cannot sin, that is the truth written within
born of the Spirit and of the Word, not from a lie that has to be heard.

I wished him well on his works in frustration, and returned back in my celebration.

This is a passage of Scripture to which I am referring when I say that "salvation" is the WRONG WORD! The Bible, when speaking about a person becoming a born-again believer, uses the phrase "justified by God," instead! "Salvation," particularly in the prophecies, refers to the DELIVERANCE - the RESCUE - of the Jewish people when the Messiah comes again! God is "just and the justifier of them which believe in Jesus (Yeshua`)!" (Romans 3:26)

The interpretation of other passages of Romans is the culprit, especially Romans 10:13!

Consider:

Romans 10:9-13
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

Those of you who believe, how many times have you heard this passage being used for introducing someone to God's justification? to being born again? But that's WRONG!!! Verse 13 is a quote from the Tanakh, specifically Yo'el's prophecy found in Joel 2:32! Look at its context:

Joel 2:25-3:2
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV

This is talking about when Yeshua` returns and rescues His people Isra'el! Thus, this is not talking about "being saved" like WE think of "being saved"; it's talking about being RESCUED!!!

That's what Yeshua` was talking about when He said to the Samaritan woman:

John 4:21-26
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias (Messiah, Hebrew meaning "Anointed One") cometh, which is called Christ (Greek meaning "Anointed One"): when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
KJV

So, when you read something like ...

Philippians 2:9-13
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

... you must exert a massive effort to make a paradigm shift in your thinking and realize that this is talking about Yeshua` becoming King of Kings and Master of Masters and coming back to earth to rescue His people! If you don't make this paradigm shift in thinking, you're going to misunderstand such passages. This passage does NOT talk about God's justification of a person!

 

[lukethreesix]

Let me see if I understand this correctly....The wages of sin is death, that is the price one pays for their sin. So, God will bring people back to life (resurrect) after they have paid the penalty for their sin, only to torture them forever. Instead of God being both merciful and just (leaving them in the grave), He will raise them up not to restore, reconcile, redeem, or renew, but for the "soul" purpose of torture. So, everyone gets eternal life, whether or not they believe, some live forever happy and some live forever in pain and torment. Wow, what a God! What a worderful plan that is...NOT!!!

 

[Angelina]

The wages of sin is death, that is the price one pays for their sin. So, God will bring people back to life (resurrect) after they have paid the penalty for their sin, only to torture them forever.

They are not bought back to life. They are delivered up from Hell/hades and judged accordingly.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Instead of God being both merciful and just (leaving them in the grave), He will raise them up not to restore, reconcile, redeem, or renew, but for the "soul" purpose of torture. So, everyone gets eternal life, whether or not they believe, some live forever happy and some live forever in pain and torment. Wow, what a God! What a worderful plan that is...NOT!!!

2 Peter 2
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

I just know what God's word says... We can pretend it doesn't say that but that would be like burying one's head in the sand...
btw God is merciful and just. I am sure that he would have reached out many times while they lived in earthly tents and sent many of his children on their path well before their souls were required from them and they ended up in Hades...they just didn't want to know because they loved the wages of sin and wickedness more than God's love and his free gift of life eternal.... :huh:

 

[lukethreesix]

Ok? So God doesn't raise dead people alive, but raises dead people dead?
So again, the wages of sin is death + infinite torture? And those in hades are not alive, but being tortured dead?

 

[Angelina]

Your understanding of the word "dead" is not right....and your word games are not appreciated...They are dead because their sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus. Romans 6:23. We are not talking about the dead in Christ but rather the dead that have been delivered up for judgment from Hades... we either believe what the bible says or we don't.