Passover vs Eucharist

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Illuminator

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[QUOTE="Behold, post: 788092, member: 8641.[/QUOTE]
The consecrated Bread and Wine at the last Passover supper is ONE AND THE SAME SACRIFICE as Calvary. This you fail to understand. The Passover required FOUR CUPS OF WINE.
For the second time, why did Jesus delay the FOURTH CUP???
 

Philip James

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Behold

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[QUOTE="Behold, post: 788092, member: 8641.
The consecrated Bread and Wine at the last Passover supper is ONE AND THE SAME SACRIFICE as Calvary. This you fail to understand. The Passover required FOUR CUPS OF WINE.
For the second time, why did Jesus delay the FOURTH CUP???[/QUOTE]

The "communion" is not the Blood Atonement of Jesus.
How do you know?
Because God requires you to have Faith in Christ, after being given the Gospel.
The Gospel is not...."believe on the cup and the wine, and you shall be saved".

Stop being foolish.
 

Marymog

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Read carefully what i say, Marymog.
I said the cup and the bread are both spiritual and symbolic.
So, if you eat the communion, as some early believers did, as Paul is talking about, as if its LUNCH or DINNER< then you are not discerning the spiritual content of "communion".... and are not respecting a sacred symbolic act.
Fellowship with God is sacred.
Communion, Prayer, Praise, ...these are spiritual and are to be understood this way and respected.

This issue with the bread and the cup, is that millions give more respect to them then they actually do to the Son of God, Himself.
This is why Catholics don't talk about Jesus or the Cross on a Forum. They only talk about what is sacred to the Catholic faith.
Mary, and Communion.
Isnt that right "Marymog'?
Im not kidding, and you are not hearing me, because you are lost in what isn't to be esteemed the way you practice it.

This is because you and most Catholics have made an IDOL out of both.
No, that isn’t right....

AND no...they are not idols sooo you are wrong on both accounts. Thank you for your time
 
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Marymog

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If Jesus is standing there, his Body is alive, his blood in it, ...is His body that piece of bread and His blood that wine?
Really??
He said it was his body/blood and I believe Him. Why don’t you?
 
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Philip James

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The "communion" is not the Blood Atonement of Jesus

Hello Behold,

And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

St. Therese, pray for us!
 
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Behold

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No, that isn’t right....

AND no...they are not idols sooo you are wrong on both accounts. Thank you for your time

Oh im quite right..
But im not trying to prove that im right, so, do understand that..
Its not about that.
Im trying to free people.

Here is something for you..

-
i·dol
/ˈīdl/

noun
  1. an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
 

Behold

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He said it was his body/blood and I believe Him. Why don’t you?


Because Jesus spoke :

1. Literally
2. In Parables
3. Symbolically.

The New Testament does the same.

The "Communion" is a sacred symbolic situation.
We are to reverence it but not worship it, or see it as worthy of worship.
Also, ive talked to people like you.
And people like you, have shown me that they see the Communion in a way that elevates it to Idol status.
 

Marymog

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Jesus said this also.....>"eat my flesh and drink my blood" , whoever does this has eternal life.'""

So, all of this is on one hand Spiritual, yet symbolic.
Its a Spiritual communion, that is a spiritual sharing of the symbolic. Thats what we are doing when we "take" communion.

Look at the verses i posted....."whoever does this, has eternal life"...>"eat my flesh, and drinks my blood".

Well, in Leviticus, God told us that its an abomination to drink/eat Blood.
You are forbidden from drinking or eating "blood".
So, if we are not allowed to ingest blood, human, bat, goat, fetus, snake, or camel, blood, then you can't DRINK IT.

"but the cup of communion IS THE BLOOD, the REAL BLOOD"... the LITERAL BLOOD.....

So, you have a problem, do you see it?
Also, if you "eat the flesh of a human", you also have a problem.
Do you see it?

So, all this, is what happens when the symbolic is treated as literal, and no-one in certain cults has a true understanding of some spiritual realities and because of this what should be an honoring situation, turns into a religious circus..

How to you eat and drink, Jesus?
By FAITH.
See, its FAITH that you give God, who then comes to be IN YOU.....Himself.
Thats even better then a Cookie, don't you agree?

Also, "whoever does this has eternal life"..... This does not mean you are drinking eternal life from a cup and chewing in it your mouth.
It means that BECAUSE YOU HAVE IT ALREADY......this person will take the symbolic = communion.... that represents what you have, already.

Is communion a deeply spiritual moment? Yes.
Is it eternal life in a cup and the Literal God in heaven come down as a Cookie that came out of a bag, no.
What is a “spiritual communion”?


Curious
 

Illuminator

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The consecrated Bread and Wine at the last Passover supper is ONE AND THE SAME SACRIFICE as Calvary. This you fail to understand. The Passover required FOUR CUPS OF WINE.
For the second time, why did Jesus delay the FOURTH CUP???

The "communion" is not the Blood Atonement of Jesus.
How do you know?
Because God requires you to have Faith in Christ, after being given the Gospel.
The Gospel is not...."believe on the cup and the wine, and you shall be saved".

Stop being foolish.[/QUOTE]

This does not answer the question. For the THIRD rime, why did Jesus delay the FOURTH CUP??? I spoon fed the answer with a video, based on Scripture alone. I think the reason you are unable to answer the question is because you have Protestant-ized the Passover making it impossible for you to accept any explanation of the Eucharist. Protestantism does not express fulfillment of the Passover in any meaningful sense.

...That's the Old Testament background. What it all meant was that this was the covenant event. In other words, what God was interested in doing was to restore the family purity and the family communion of His children, the people of Israel. The Passover was the bonding agent that brought it about, through the blood of the lamb, that sacrifice. And so it was celebrated for thousands of years, and still is by Jews, as the sign of the Mosaic covenant.

Now remember, a covenant is a sacred family bond; it's more than just a contract. And remember also that firstborn sons were marked for destruction. In other words, Egypt offered up a sacrifice and so did Israel. Egypt's sacrifice was unwilling: their firstborn sons. Israel's sacrifice was voluntary: the unblemished lamb. All of this is key, I believe, to understand the New Testament context of the Last Supper and our own Holy Eucharist, because when Christ institutes the Eucharist, as I said, it takes place in the upper room at the Last Supper. And what are they doing but celebrating the Passover? Luke 22:15: "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you." So likewise in Mark chapter 14: "His disciples said to him, 'Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?' And he gave them instructions and the disciples set out and entered the city and found it as he had told them and they prepared the Passover."

And you know the circumstances and details surrounding the Last Supper. I won't recount all of them, but let's just go over the more salient features. In Mark 14:22ff we read, "And as they were eating he took bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them and said, 'Take; this is my body. And he took a cup and when he had given thanks [the Greek word for that is eucharisto] he gave it to them and they all drank of it, and he said to them, 'This is my blood of the new covenant which is poured out for many.'" And then he adds a kind of unusual statement: "Truly I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." And then, when they had sung a hymn, they went out into the night to the Mount of Olives. Now that might not seem very significant to you but to scholars who study the gospel accounts of the Passover in the upper room, there's a big problem. Why? Because we know the way the Passover has been celebrated for centuries, for millenia; it's a very ancient liturgy, it's well known, it's no secret. Jews still celebrate it according to the same structure. There are four cups that represent the structure of the Passover.
  1. The first cup is the blessing of the festival day, it's the kiddush cup.
  2. The second cup of wine occurs really at the beginning of the Passover liturgy itself, and that involves the singing of psalm 113.
  3. And then there's the third cup, the cup of blessing which involves the actual meal, the unleavened bread and so on. And then, before the fourth cup, you sing the great hil-el psalms: 114, 115, 116, 117 and 118.
And having sung those psalms you proceed to the fourth cup which for all practical purposes is the climax of the Passover.

Now what's the problem? The problem is that gospel account says something like this: after the third cup is drunk Jesus says, "I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I am entering into the kingdom of God." And it says, "Then they sang the psalms." Every Jew who knows the liturgy would expect: and then they went ahead and said the grace and the blessing and had the fourth cup which climaxed and consummated the Passover. But no, the gospel account say they sang the psalms and went out into the night.

I'm sure this doesn't seem like a big problem and for a long time it didn't seem big to me, but it ha led many scholars to question whether he was celebrating a Passover at all because you just don't blow apart the liturgy that way. You don't just sidestep the most important part...

It would be like saying the Mass and skipping the Eucharist, forgetting the words of consecration. So why did Jesus do it? Other scholars say, well back them there must not have been a fourth cup. But ancient revered traditions like that don't just spring up overnight and then cover the globe like the Passover liturgy has, with all four cups. And so it seems likely that there might be a better explanation. But where? Why did he skip the fourth cup? After all, he was raised a Jew, he'd been celebrating the Passover every year of his life since he was a little boy according to the strictest laws of Moses. Well, maybe there's a psychological reason. Maybe he was so anxious, so uptight about what he knew he was going to do, he - for instance, we read in Mark 14:32, "They went out to a place called Gethsemane and he said to his disciples, 'Sit here while I pray.' He took with him Peter, James and John and began to be greatly distressed and troubled, and he said to them, 'My soul is very sorrowful even unto death.'"

That's what our Lord was feeling, so some have said that maybe he just wasn't alert enough to get all the way through the liturgy; he was distracted. Doubtful, very doubtful. He wouldn't skip over something so essential and climactic as that. Everything else functioned according to plan. They sang the psalms and then they went out into the night. I think the answer lies elsewhere. Where did they go? Well, we just read, Gethsemane. And what did he do? He prayed, because his soul was so distressed. Notice what he prayed, and why, and how he did it. Three times he fell down to the ground and said to his Father, he cried out. "Abba, Father!" He fell to the ground and three times said to the Father, "Abba, Father." The most intimate of terms. "All things are possible to Thee. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt." Remove this cup. Take away this cup. What is this cup? Now, some scholars suggest that this harkens back to an image used by Isaiah and Jeremiah to speak about the cup of God's wrath that the Messiah, God's suffering servant, must drink. There's certainly some connection that can be made there, but much more likely, I think, is a connection between an interrupted liturgy that had been followed strictly up until the very end and this heartfelt, earnest plea and prayer of our Savior. Remove this cup. He also said, though, "I shall not taste of the fruit of the vine again until I enter into the kingdom."

So what do we see as the drama unfolds? Well, in Mark 15:23, on the way to calvary, after being beaten and scourged and abused, what do some people offer our Lord? In Mark 15:23 they offer him wine mingled with myrrh, which was an opiate, a painkiller, but he wouldn't take it. Why not? Well, certainly because he was there to accept the suffering for the sins of the world. But he had also said, "I will not taste of the fruit of the vine again until I come into the kingdom." So He wouldn't take the wine. But then we turn to John, chapter 19

"They put a sponge full of the sour wine on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine he said the words that are spoken of in the fourth cup consummation, "It is finished." What is the it referring to? That grammatical question began really bothering me at some point. I asked several people and their response was usually, "Well, it means the work of redemption that Christ was working on." All right, that's true, I agree it does refer to that, but in context. An exegete, a trained interpreter of the word is supposed to find the contextual meaning, not just import a meaning from a theology textbook. What is Jesus speaking of when he says, "It is finished?" I mean, our redemption is not completed once he - he's not yet raised. Paul says, "He was raised for our justification." Romans 4:25
 

Illuminator

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I believe that it's best to say in light of scripture that the sacrifice of Christ did not begin with the first spike, it didn't begin when the cross was sunk into the ground. I began in the upper room. That's where the sacrifice began. And I would also suggest that the Passover meal by which Jesus initiated the new Covenant in his own blood did not end in the upper room, but at calvary. It's all of one piece.

The sacrifice begins in the upper room with the institution of the Eucharist and it ends at calvary.
Calvary begins with the Eucharist.
The Eucharist ends at Calvary. But in another way of thinking, it ain't over yet! Cause it ain't over till it's over. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed, therefore"_what?_we don't need to have any more sacrifice? Therefore we don't need to have any more ritual, therefore all we have to do is have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and invite him into our hearts and everything else is taken care of? No, he's too knowledgeable about the Old Testament to say any of that. He says, "Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed; let us therefore celebrate the feast." What feast? The whole Passover feast. It's not complete yet. What do you mean?

Well, go back to the Old Testament, to the book of Exodus. Suppose that night as head of my household and father, I sacrificed an unblemished lamb with no broken bones, and I sprinkled his blood on the door post, and then I said, "Family, we're safe, let's go to bed', and we went to bed.

That's the way it was in the Old Testament, and St. Paul recognizes that it's still the way it is in the new covenant, only in spades, only with more glory. Why? Because Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Once and for all on calvary he's been put to death, therefore_what? Therefore we've nothing to do. Just celebrate the sacrifice, which is over and done with_ No, something's missing.

We need to eat the Lamb. We need to receive the Lamb to restore communion and to complete the sacrifice and to keep the feast . It's proper, and we now judge it to be necessary. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed and now let us celebrate the feast." And the next five chapters in many ways St. Paul describes how the Eucharist is to be celebrated, because it's the culmination of the Passover sacrifice.

This is a true sacrifice. It's an unbloody sacrifice, because we're not killing Jesus again. This was something I never really understood as a Protestant anti-Catholic. I thought for sure that because you speak of sacrificing in the Mass, that therefore in some way you believe we're killing Jesus again and again and again, as though one dying is not enough. So we just assumed and I always taught that there was suffering imposed upon Christ supposedly in the Mass. This is blasphemous because his one act of dying wasn't enough and we had to continue to have him die and bleed and suffer, which is what the Mass is for. No way! That's anti-Catholic. No Catholic can believe that because the sacrifice of the Mass involves no bleeding , no dying and no suffering of the person of Christ, who is enthroned in glory and reigning triumphant in heaven. He is resurrected. He is ascended. He is enthroned, and he rules as king of kings.

Read more here
 

Behold

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The "communion" is not the Blood Atonement of Jesus.
How do you know?
Because God requires you to have Faith in Christ, after being given the Gospel.
The Gospel is not...."believe on the cup and the wine, and you shall be saved".

Stop being foolish.

This does not answer the question. For the THIRD rime, why did Jesus delay the FOURTH CUP??? [/QUOTE]

I dont care about the 4th cup, or the 24th cup.
So, spoon feed that to yourself.
I care about the GRACE OF GOD and the JESUS WHO DIED FOR MY SIN.
I TEACH THAT.
You worry about cups and bread and Mary.
Help yourself.
 

Illuminator

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This does not answer the question. For the THIRD rime, why did Jesus delay the FOURTH CUP???

I dont care about the 4th cup, or the 24th cup.
So, spoon feed that to yourself.
I care about the GRACE OF GOD and the JESUS WHO DIED FOR MY SIN.
I TEACH THAT.
You worry about cups and bread and Mary.
Help yourself.
If you really cared about the grace of God, you wouldn't be an anti-Semite.
OIP.cD3ApsuroXNMwrWp-yuQYgHaF7
 

Behold

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If you really cared about the grace of God, you wouldn't be an anti-Semite.
OIP.cD3ApsuroXNMwrWp-yuQYgHaF7

You should visit Israel.
I can take you to my Messianic Congregation.
There are quite a few of them there who love Jesus, worship God, and understand the Blood Atonement.
They'll all be happy to tell you that they are the Children of Abraham and are In Israel because God wants them there.....
Consider yourself invited.
 

Marymog

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Jesus said this also.....>"eat my flesh and drink my blood" , whoever does this has eternal life.'""

So, all of this is on one hand Spiritual, yet symbolic.
Its a Spiritual communion, that is a spiritual sharing of the symbolic. Thats what we are doing when we "take" communion.....
Hi Behold,

I am trying to figure out what a "spiritual communion" is?

Curious Mary