Passover vs Eucharist

[Marymog]

Catholics think the cookie and the juice or wine is REALLY the blood and body of Jesus.
Their cult has a "mystical" aspect related to the PRIEST, whereby that they have been led to be that this man has the power to change the cookie and the wine into the LITERAL Christ.
"transubstantiation".

Hi Behold,

Christianity has taught for 2,000 years what Catholics, and some Protestant churches, teach, practice, believe and hold true.

In 33AD Jesus said you must eat my body and drink my blood. At the Last Supper he said this IS my body/blood. He told us to do it and showed us HOW to do it.


The Apostle Paul wrote in 54AD: Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the LORD in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the LORD. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.


Clement, 80-90AD, who was the fourth Pope of Rome, (who walked and talked with Peter and Paul) wrote: "In the same way, my brothers, when we offer our own Eucharist to God, each one should keep to his own degree” .


The Didache, 80AD says: But let none eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptized in the Lord's Name. For concerning this also did the Lord say, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs." The Eucharist is holy because it is the body and blood of Christ. The Catholic Church still today, 2000 years later, does not allow you to take communion unless you are baptized and you believe it is His body and blood just like the early (during the apostles life) Christians practiced.

Apostle Luke wrote n Acts 2 85 AD: So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.


In the year 110 AD Ignatius (a student of the Apostle John) wrote: They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. He also wrote of "one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with His Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice". Ignatius teaching on the Real Presence mirrors what Jesus said and Paul and Luke taught.


Athenagoras of Athens (a Christian convert) wrote around 180 AD: Three things are alleged against us (Christians): atheism, THYSTEAN FEAST and Edipoen intercourse..” Thyestean Feast is marked by the consumption of human flesh. In other words the non-Christians, who did not participate in church services, thought the Christians were eating real flesh during services. Why did they think that? Because the early Christians believed Jesus when he said, this is my body, this is my blood. They believed it and pronounced it just like the Catholic Church pronounces it today, 2000 years later.


As you can see The Church, since the beginning, has always taught, practiced, preached what Jesus and the Apostles taught, practiced, preached. However, in the year 2020, you and @marksman deny that teaching. You and some of your Protestant brothers/sisters are STILL quarreling amongst yourselves, just like the Jews did 2,000 years ago. Jesus and the Apostles taught us "how" however you and others choose to walk away, just like they did. ("The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”. After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. John 5:52, John6:66)

With that said I know NOTHING I present to you is going to change your mind. HOWEVER, if you can show me that your 2020 interpretation of this doctrine (transubstantiation) was authoritatively taught and accepted in the 1st century I will gladly re-consider my position.

Respectfully, Historical and Bible Study Mary

 

[Behold]

Hi Behold,

I am trying to figure out what a "spiritual communion" is?

Curious Mary

Lets say an Atheist comes into a Catholic Church.
Hypothetically, .... He is offered the bread and the wine, and he partakes.
That is exactly NOT Spiritual communion, because His dead spirit cannot partake of the spiritual connection between God and the Born again Spirit.

A Catholic, (who is born again, and not just water baptized), receives the Communion, and has a deep reverence for the moment and the items, and their Spirit is elevated,...LIFTED, .... caught up....in communal praise into God.... For some this is Ecstasy...its similar to being "lost in worship" or "Lost in Praise"....where you become so at one with God in this moment.. that you exist only in that moment with Him.
And the Goal of real Christianity is to exist there, all the time....as that is REAL Christianity.....as when you live there, God is truly alive in You and Through you.

So, its this spiritual lifting of our praise, our elevated worship that is the communion spirit, that many find happens to them, when they take the bread and wine.

Communion is supposed to help us focus more on JESUS, not focus more on the taking of, or the items, themselves.

 

[Behold]

Hi Behold,

Christianity has taught for 2,000 years what Catholics, and some Protestant churches, teach, practice, believe and hold true.

Its a double edged sword that cuts both ways, when you try to try to rest your truth on..>"men said this for the last 2000 yrs"..
So, yes. Men said a lot of things in the last 2000 yrs. Men, some who were led by God and some others who were led by the Devil.

For example...The Pope, in Past History, and with the Catholic church consenting, burned people, while they were alive.
Leaders of that particular Catholic group who falsely accused Joan of Arc.... and then sentenced her to be burned.... who witnessed Joan of Arc being burned, .. as she was screaming, was saying....."JESUS< JESUS< JESUS !!!!!!
These same Catholic Leadership heretics later admitted that "we made a mistake, she really was a SAINT">
And even Later, of course, the CC "mended" its "error", and now its SAINT JOAN....

Calvin was also someone who would burn you if you didn't agree with his theology.

Theological opposition causes severe reaction.... Notice what i just said about the Pope and Calvin for an update.

This is why we must become earnest followers of Jesus, by becomes disciples of Paul.

If a person who is born again is not, then they will become a heretic. They will become faith destroyed by heresy. They will more then likely end up in a cult that talks about Jesus, so that you think its a "real" Church.

The devil loves to talk about Jesus.
He has built many of the denominations for the last 1800 yrs that talk about Jesus.

 

[Marymog]

Its a double edged sword that cuts both ways, when you try to try to rest your truth on..>"men said this for the last 2000 yrs"..
So, yes. Men said a lot of things in the last 2000 yrs. Men, some who were led by God and some others who were led by the Devil.....

Thank you Behold.

When you read my post (#521) can you see where what has been taught for 2,000 years mirrors Scripture?

I agree.....Some men in Christian history have been led by God and some were led by the Devil. Scripture warned us of false teachers. Are you certain the teachers you follow, who teach opposite of what has been taught for 2,000 years, are not the false teachers?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

For example...The Pope, in Past History, and with the Catholic church consenting, burned people, while they were alive.
Leaders of that particular Catholic group who falsely accused Joan of Arc.... and then sentenced her to be burned.... who witnessed Joan of Arc being burned, .. as she was screaming, was saying....."JESUS< JESUS< JESUS !!!!!!
These same Catholic Leadership heretics later admitted that "we made a mistake, she really was a SAINT">
And even Later, of course, the CC "mended" its "error", and now its SAINT JOAN....

Calvin was also someone who would burn you if you didn't agree with his theology.

Theological opposition causes severe reaction.... Notice what i just said about the Pope and Calvin for an update.

This is why we must become earnest followers of Jesus, by becomes disciples of Paul.

If a person who is born again is not, then they will become a heretic. They will become faith destroyed by heresy. They will more then likely end up in a cult that talks about Jesus, so that you think its a "real" Church.

The devil loves to talk about Jesus.
He has built many of the denominations for the last 1800 yrs that talk about Jesus.

Thank you.

Do you not believe the men of the Catholic Church, or the men I mentioned in post #521, were "followers of Jesus"?

Thank you in advance, Mary

PS....I have respect for you...thank you for recognizing that Protestants killed other Protestants and Catholics for being "heretics". Many Protestants today refuse to recognize their ugly past and only point out the ugly past of The Church.

 

[Marymog]

Lets say an Atheist comes into a Catholic Church.
Hypothetically, .... He is offered the bread and the wine, and he partakes.
That is exactly NOT Spiritual communion, because His dead spirit cannot partake of the spiritual connection between God and the Born again Spirit.

A Catholic, (who is born again, and not just water baptized), receives the Communion, and has a deep reverence for the moment and the items, and their Spirit is elevated,...LIFTED, .... caught up....in communal praise into God.... For some this is Ecstasy...its similar to being "lost in worship" or "Lost in Praise"....where you become so at one with God in this moment.. that you exist only in that moment with Him.
And the Goal of real Christianity is to exist there, all the time....as that is REAL Christianity.....as when you live there, God is truly alive in You and Through you.

So, its this spiritual lifting of our praise, our elevated worship that is the communion spirit, that many find happens to them, when they take the bread and wine.

Communion is supposed to help us focus more on JESUS, not focus more on the taking of, or the items, themselves.

I now understand what you mean....Thank You.

 

[Behold]

Thank you Behold.

When you read my post (#521) can you see where what has been taught for 2,000 years mirrors Scripture?

I agree.....Some men in Christian history have been led by God and some were led by the Devil. Scripture warned us of false teachers. Are you certain the teachers you follow, who teach opposite of what has been taught for 2,000 years, are not the false teachers?

Curious Mary

Let me tell you about believers....

Here is how you can find out if a person, is more a Christian or more a Teacher's.... or a Denomination's.... Parrot, Robot.

This actually matters...

Simply ask them.
""Are you a Christian"...... or "Are you Saved"..

If they reply......"yes, im a Baptist". "yes, im a Catholic"... "yes, im a Methodist"... "yes, im a Assembly of God". "yes, im a DENOMINATiON">

So, do you see the problem?
I didnt ask them if they were a denomination, i asked them "are you a CHRISTIAN"......or, "are you SAVED"......and you'll likely get the same 'Yes im a denomination".

Well, when we realize this....... we learn a lot about believers.
There are no denominations in Heaven.

When i was a young Christian, i was taught by Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, James Kennedy, and Lloyd Ogilvie"..
These were my main influences, regarding theology, when i was a babe in Christ, and later, there were other teachers who helped me to understand God's Grace more perfectly. So, the "milk" years, i was influenced by those i named, then later, Seminary, and one teacher who was my true spiritual father regarding my Theology. All of these people taught me that the Bible is the authority, not the man, unless the man is in the Bible.
One of them helped me to find the understanding of how to learn how to open scriptures and see them as a spiritual understanding, not as words...but as Truth and Light.
He didnt show me this, he led me to understand this about the word, and the Holy Spirit taught and teaches me how to do this with verses.
At some point years ago, God took me out of all that learning "season" and placed me with the Apostle Paul.

Ive also been very encouraged by many "Saints" or very early believers. Ive read quite a bit regarding Saints from the 1st Century to the 12th.
Ive learned quite a bit from their unique approach to understanding how to think of Christianity as "union" with God and not just "being a Christian".
Most of these early Saints., some were women like Hidegard Of Bingen, or Jeanne Guyon , or someone like "Benard", or "St Francis"...these people in some cases, had theology that was not "Grace" perfect, but they had a touch of God on them, a continuing visitation from God, a truly unique and utterly beautiful union with Him, that no "perfect" theology can ever bring you.
Theology is important, because if your theology is wrong, it can actually put you at odds with God's Grace and the Cross itself.
However, being touched by God....Having His Touch....Having His Grace.....Being in Spiritual Union with God..... that this is possible, ....is really just.....so amazing.

 

[Marymog]

Let me tell you about believers....

Here is how you can find out if a person, is more a Christian or more a Teacher's.... or a Denomination's.... Parrot, Robot.

This actually matters...

Simply ask them.
""Are you a Christian"...... or "Are you Saved"..

If they reply......"yes, im a Baptist". "yes, im a Catholic"... "yes, im a Methodist"... "yes, im a Assembly of God". "yes, im a DENOMINATiON">

So, do you see the problem?
I didnt ask them if they were a denomination, i asked them "are you a CHRISTIAN"......or, "are you SAVED"......and you'll likely get the same 'Yes im a denomination".

Well, when we realize this....... we learn a lot about believers.
There are no denominations in Heaven.

When i was a young Christian, i was taught by Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, James Kennedy, and Lloyd Ogilvie"..
These were my main influences, regarding theology, when i was a babe in Christ, and later, there were other teachers who helped me to understand God's Grace more perfectly. So, the "milk" years, i was influenced by those i named, then later, Seminary, and one teacher who was my true spiritual father regarding my Theology. All of these people taught me that the Bible is the authority, not the man, unless the man is in the Bible.
One of them helped me to find the understanding of how to learn how to open scriptures and see them as a spiritual understanding, not as words...but as Truth and Light.
He didnt show me this, he led me to understand this about the word, and the Holy Spirit taught and teaches me how to do this with verses.
At some point years ago, God took me out of all that learning "season" and placed me with the Apostle Paul.

Ive also been very encouraged by many "Saints" or very early believers. Ive read quite a bit regarding Saints from the 1st Century to the 12th.
Ive learned quite a bit from their unique approach to understanding how to think of Christianity as "union" with God and not just "being a Christian".
Most of these early Saints., some were women like Hidegard Of Bingen, or Jeanne Guyon , or someone like "Benard", or "St Francis"...these people in some cases, had theology that was not "Grace" perfect, but they had a touch of God on them, a continuing visitation from God, a truly unique and utterly beautiful union with Him, that no "perfect" theology can ever bring you.
Theology is important, because if your theology is wrong, it can actually put you at odds with God's Grace and the Cross itself.
However, being touched by God....Having His Touch....Having His Grace.....Being in Spiritual Union with God..... that this is possible, ....is really just.....so amazing.

Thank you.

I agree that there are no denominations in heaven. There is a member of this forum (Stanb) that believes that Scripture supports abortion. As long as the child hasn't taken it's first breath it can be killed. I suspect if we were to ask him if he is a Christian and he is saved he would say "YES"! Based on your above stated theory...is he a Christian?

Do you adhere to the theology/teachings of Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, James Kennedy and Lloyd Ogilvie?

If one is "at odds with God's Grace and the Cross itself" will they be saved?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Its a double edged sword that cuts both ways, when you try to try to rest your truth on..>"men said this for the last 2000 yrs"..
So, yes. Men said a lot of things in the last 2000 yrs. Men, some who were led by God and some others who were led by the Devil.

For example...The Pope, in Past History, and with the Catholic church consenting, burned people, while they were alive.
Leaders of that particular Catholic group who falsely accused Joan of Arc.... and then sentenced her to be burned.... who witnessed Joan of Arc being burned, .. as she was screaming, was saying....."JESUS< JESUS< JESUS !!!!!!
These same Catholic Leadership heretics later admitted that "we made a mistake, she really was a SAINT">
And even Later, of course, the CC "mended" its "error", and now its SAINT JOAN....

Calvin was also someone who would burn you if you didn't agree with his theology.

Theological opposition causes severe reaction.... Notice what i just said about the Pope and Calvin for an update.

This is why we must become earnest followers of Jesus, by becomes disciples of Paul.

If a person who is born again is not, then they will become a heretic. They will become faith destroyed by heresy. They will more then likely end up in a cult that talks about Jesus, so that you think its a "real" Church.

The devil loves to talk about Jesus.
He has built many of the denominations for the last 1800 yrs that talk about Jesus.

You left out this portion of my post which has a very important question/statement in it:
Can show me that your 2020 interpretation of this doctrine (transubstantiation) was authoritatively taught and accepted in the 1st century?

 

[Behold]

Thank you.

I agree that there are no denominations in heaven. There is a member of this forum (Stanb) that believes that Scripture supports abortion. As long as the child hasn't taken it's first breath it can be killed. I suspect if we were to ask him if he is a Christian and he is saved he would say "YES"! Based on your above stated theory...is he a Christian?

Do you adhere to the theology/teachings of Charles Stanley, Adrian Rogers, James Kennedy and Lloyd Ogilvie?

If one is "at odds with God's Grace and the Cross itself" will they be saved?

Curious Mary

Interesting Questions.

These pastors that discovered for me how to understand that God is Love and God is Light and God is both Holy and Jealous, and that God's love is unconditional, helped me a lot. They kept me away from Self Saving Legalism, which is the most important thing of all, as if that dark spiritually gets a foothold, it'll ruin your faith.
I have not heard them preach a full sermon or teach a message, in about 30 yrs.
I dont listen to any of them..... i dont read commentaries..
When i write a Thread, ...I wrote it. Its not cut and paste, its not,,,,an online search for someone's teaching that i post and pretend i wrote it.
Ive written about 40 Threads here, in a month. I wrote them.
I dont use a lot of verses, because im not trying to write a chapter in the bible, im instead teaching a topic by showing you how to see it.
It does not matter that everyone agrees.. Its not about that. What matters is what the Threads expose and also encourage.
See, if a person has believed wrong for 15-55 yrs, and i show them how to believe right......this is a bit of a shock.
Theology, belief, is a deep mental situation, and to change from one belief to a different type, is God's work in them.
He lets me show you what to SEE, and then if a person is sincere and wants to SEE more then they want to be self righteous, then God will help them leave the wrong and start believing the Right.
Sometimes its instant, and sometimes its a process.
It can be..."well, he makes so much sense, but, its totally against what ive been taught by people i trust for the last 30 yrs".
So, see ?
Coming out of the Dark, and into the Light, is a process.
Leaving the wrong and believing the Right, is a process.
I show the way, but God gives the revelation.

I see a topic in my head, and it becomes a message,... and as i type, more comes to grow it...it just sort of keeps connecting and connecting till the end.
My Threads are long, because the info just keeps transmitting inside me, so i just keep writing it down.
What are my Teaching books, aids, Library?
I have a New Testament, and a Hebrew "God's promises", and 2 english "God's promises", little devotionals, and i have a couple of books on Christian Saints. (Early Church).

I think that God sends us teachers, and all believers need to have good ones, and one of the ways that i discovered that i was called to Teach was that i could. I also noticed that i eventually knew as much or more, theologically, as my teachers, and that i could present teaching in a way that causes change.
Ive seen this so much for so many years.
God be praised !

Also, you asked me about being at odds with God's Grace.
Well, all unbelievers are at odds with God's Grace, which is why they are currently damned. John 3:36
Many believers, since the time of Paul and Jude, have been at odds with God's Grace, also.
The term i use is "cross denying Legalist", and Jude says these devils change the idea and Truth of God's Grace into a twisted idea of "license" "cheap Grace", "easy believism", and "OSAS". (the current vocabulary)...so that the truth of Grace, the correct understanding, is changed into a Lie...in other words, that the correct presentation of the Gospel of Grace, is castigated by the Heretic as "easy", 'cheap", "license", "osas"...

Like this...
"""OH you mean, (they say), that all sin is forgiven, and God does not hold you accountable in Heaven for your sin, because Christ has paid for them all on EARTH"....well that is "cheap grace", that is "license to sin"..

NO, that is GOD's GRACE that is a GIFT ! "the GIFT of Salvation".. "the GIFT of Righteousness".

So, you can be saved and be at odds with God, Grace, and the Cross.
But you are become this. Galatians 1:8

 

[Behold]

You left out this portion of my post which has a very important question/statement in it:
Can show me that your 2020 interpretation of this doctrine (transubstantiation) was authoritatively taught and accepted in the 1st century?

Consider always, that what happens in Catholicism, is important only if you are a Catholic.
I think 100% of Catholics are taught to believe that the "true" church, as founded by Peter ?????
Is the literal body of Christ, and that any other idea of Church is "heresy".

So, This puts the Catholic Church under the definition of "cult" as all "cults' teach their members that they are the ONLY one.

Now if you consider the Protestant "church".....They dont consider one denomination as being THE one.
They consider, as Paul teaches, that there is THE "Body of Christ", and this body is made up of ALL THE born again.
So, that defines the "church"..Its the people who are born again.
Catholic Theology says that this is heresy, and 800 yrs ago, they would have burned me alive, for this very post.

So, Im not a historian on The Catholic Church. But i am well acquainted with their theology.
To answer your question......the ides of Transubstantiation has been around since about 100ad.
Mary Worship has been around since about 300 AD
Its just as wrong.

 

[Marymog]

Interesting Questions.

These pastors that discovered for me how to understand that God is Love and God is Light and God is both Holy and Jealous, and that God's love is unconditional, helped me a lot. They kept me away from Self Saving Legalism, which is the most important thing of all, as if that dark spiritually gets a foothold, it'll ruin your faith.
I have not heard them preach a full sermon or teach a message, in about 30 yrs.
I dont listen to any of them..... i dont read commentaries..
When i write a Thread, ...I wrote it. Its not cut and paste, its not,,,,an online search for someone's teaching that i post and pretend i wrote it.
Ive written about 40 Threads here, in a month. I wrote them.
I dont use a lot of verses, because im not trying to write a chapter in the bible, im instead teaching a topic by showing you how to see it.
It does not matter that everyone agrees.. Its not about that. What matters is what the Threads expose and also encourage.
See, if a person has believed wrong for 15-55 yrs, and i show them how to believe right......this is a bit of a shock.
Theology, belief, is a deep mental situation, and to change from one belief to a different type, is God's work in them.
He lets me show you what to SEE, and then if a person is sincere and wants to SEE more then they want to be self righteous, then God will help them leave the wrong and start believing the Right.
Sometimes its instant, and sometimes its a process.
It can be..."well, he makes so much sense, but, its totally against what ive been taught by people i trust for the last 30 yrs".
So, see ?
Coming out of the Dark, and into the Light, is a process.
Leaving the wrong and believing the Right, is a process.
I show the way, but God gives the revelation.

I see a topic in my head, and it becomes a message,... and as i type, more comes to grow it...it just sort of keeps connecting and connecting till the end.
My Threads are long, because the info just keeps transmitting inside me, so i just keep writing it down.
What are my Teaching books, aids, Library?
I have a New Testament, and a Hebrew "God's promises", and 2 english "God's promises", little devotionals, and i have a couple of books on Christian Saints. (Early Church).

I think that God sends us teachers, and all believers need to have good ones, and one of the ways that i discovered that i was called to Teach was that i could. I also noticed that i eventually knew as much or more, theologically, as my teachers, and that i could present teaching in a way that causes change.
Ive seen this so much for so many years.
God be praised !

Also, you asked me about being at odds with God's Grace.
Well, all unbelievers are at odds with God's Grace, which is why they are currently damned. John 3:36
Many believers, since the time of Paul and Jude, have been at odds with God's Grace, also.
The term i use is "cross denying Legalist", and Jude says these devils change the idea and Truth of God's Grace into a twisted idea of "license" "cheap Grace", "easy believism", and "OSAS". (the current vocabulary)...so that the truth of Grace, the correct understanding, is changed into a Lie...in other words, that the correct presentation of the Gospel of Grace, is castigated by the Heretic as "easy", 'cheap", "license", "osas"...

Like this...
"""OH you mean, (they say), that all sin is forgiven, and God does not hold you accountable in Heaven for your sin, because Christ has paid for them all on EARTH"....well that is "cheap grace", that is "license to sin"..

NO, that is GOD's GRACE that is a GIFT ! "the GIFT of Salvation".. "the GIFT of Righteousness".

So, you can be saved and be at odds with God, Grace, and the Cross.
But you are become this. Galatians 1:8

Thank you....I appreciate the time you took to respond.

You said, It does not matter that everyone agrees.. Its not about that. Is that statement at odds with what Jesus prayed for in John 17:21 (that we may all be one)?

How does your theory conform with Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that we should all be in agreement with each other and have no divisions amongst us?

Scripture is very clear that there are false doctrines taught by false teachers. If it doesn't matter that everyone agrees isn't that the same as saying false doctrines don't matter?

BTW.....I also enjoy reading about the early church saints.

God bless...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Consider always, that what happens in Catholicism, is important only if you are a Catholic.

I think 100% of Catholics are taught to believe that the "true" church, as founded by Peter ?????
Is the literal body of Christ, and that any other idea of Church is "heresy".

So, This puts the Catholic Church under the definition of "cult" as all "cults' teach their members that they are the ONLY one....

Hi,

You have two very interesting opinions that I would like to address and put to rest.

Catholics are taught what Jesus said: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So The Church was not "founded by Peter". Peter did not establish The Church. Peter is the rock that Christ built his church on. Peter, along with the other Apostles, was PART of the foundation of The Church that Christ built. That foundation was added onto thru Apostolic Succession (Acts 1:20-26, 1 Timothy 4:14, 1 Timothy 5:22).

The Church does not teach that "any other idea of Church is "heresy". I am interested in why you think that...If you care to elaborate? If not, no big deal!

Respectfully, Mary

 

[Behold]

Thank you....I appreciate the time you took to respond.

You said, It does not matter that everyone agrees.. Its not about that. Is that statement at odds with what Jesus prayed for in John 17:21 (that we may all be one)?
How does your theory conform with Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that we should all be in agreement with each other and have no divisions amongst us?
Scripture is very clear that there are false doctrines taught by false teachers. If it doesn't matter that everyone agrees isn't that the same as saying false doctrines don't matter?
BTW.....I also enjoy reading about the early church saints.
God bless...Mary

Well, when i say that it does not matter that everyone agrees..... im referring to how Teachers effect change.

A Forum is a different situation then a church building that has 4 walls and top and a congregation.
A Forum has members, and a Church building has a Congregation.
A church is paying me to teach them Light and a Forum is allowing me to do the same.

If i was in a Church building, and im teaching, then there are standards of doctrine and beliefs that have to be in place within my Group.
On a forum, you just have to deal with heretics, semi-heretics, new believers, and people who actually understand The Cross and the Blood Atonement.

In a church you can invite a heretic into the parking lot and ask them to never ever come back.
Which is NT correct behavior, as its Paul who said that if im dealing with a Heretic, and they will not listen, and just want to contradict....then im to give them 2x to listen, and if they will not, then i am to REJECT them.
Not Love them. Not invite them back..but to REJECT them... And this is because spiritual subversion is a cancer.. Its has killed the heretics "right believing", and they will infect a church and a forum.....so, That is why you cut them loose.
Titus 3:10.
This is yet again more of the "Unknown New Testament" that is 100% unknown to most Christian.
See, most Christians think that you are to show love love love love, in all cases, but that is not not not the case.
A Heretic will ruin people's Faith, so you have to get rid of them.. get them OUT of your church.
On a Forum, you put up with them, and you try to teach the other people instead, as a Heretic is not going to listen, and will only exist on a Forum to agitate real believers and try to block the Truth.

So, sure, in the context of a Church, where you can control the members, being the Head, then of course, we all have to be in union regarding what we believe about the principle doctrines and so forth.
But a forum, its online, its "blind", we dont even use our real names or photos.....Its just a lot of pretense and nonsense, and yet, there are always people found on Forums who love God and want to go farther within their Salvation, and so, they need a teacher.
Very few "universal invitation" forums, have a really strict TOS that does not allow certain doctrines to be taught.
This one , regarding the Mods, is probably going to shut down a Mormon or a JW, is my guess.
Other forums shut down Catholics.
Some Forums shut down anything that isn't in agreement with "Pre-destined Elect" theology.

So, when a Teacher goes to a Forum, you know you will be dealing with a wide ranging theological group, and so, its not necessary that they agree with you, as thats not going to happen across the board.
Teaching is like planting a garden. You seed, and God waters. You plant and God gives the harvest.

 

[Behold]

Hi,

You have two very interesting opinions that I would like to address and put to rest.

Catholics are taught what Jesus said: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. So The Church was not "founded by Peter". Peter did not establish The Church. Peter is the rock that Christ built his church on.

"peter is the rock".
This is Catholic Theology, not NT Theology.
According to the NT< Jesus is the Rock, is the Cornerstone.
There is a reason that Peter has 2 chapters in the NT and Paul wrote 73%.

And about that "rock"...
The Church is founded on Jesus as the Head and built upon... HIM.
So what Created Christianity, is not Peter, but its the revelation that Peter had , and Jesus said..>"God has shown you this".
So, upon that REVELATION, is the Body of Christ (Church) Built upon and that Rock is CHRIST.
The revelation is that Jesus is the Son of God., the Messiah. The Savior. = THE ROCK.
God's family, the born again are not built upon "peter", it is built upon MESSIAH.

And yes, i know you will not hear this, as you been told your entire life, that Peter is the Rock.
You were misled, and you are not going to stop being misled, because for you to see this, would shake your faith in all those liars who have built your faith, on THEM and their teaching.

So, i know that you can't .. more then likely.. as this would turn your life inside out.
So, you'll just think that im wrong, and go with those who actually deceived you, as that is easier.
I think that you understand that Jesus Saves, and not the cup or Mary or the water.
So, as long as you have that, and even if the rest of what you believe is wrong.....
That is what is necessary.....As even if every other thing you believe is wrong.... "If".... as long as you are born again Spiritually, and not by "water".... you get to go to heaven, and in the end, that is what matters ....

 

[Illuminator]

But as the passions of the Reformation era have cooled, and Protestant scholars have taken a more dispassionate look at this text, they have come to agree more and more that Jesus was referring to Peter himself as the rock. Of course, they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of what this means, but many now agree that the Catholic explanation of the grammar of the text is correct.

Albert Barnes
Nineteenth-Century Presbyterian
“The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: ‘Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion” [Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 170].

John Broadus
Nineteenth-Century Calvinistic Baptist
“As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that ‘upon this rock’ means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter’s confession”
[Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

Craig L. Blomberg
Contemporary Baptist
“The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification”
[New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].

J. Knox Chamblin
Contemporary Presbyterian
“By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself”
[“Matthew” in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R. T. France
Contemporary Anglican
“The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied”
(Gospel According to Matthew, 254).

Herman Ridderbos
Contemporary Dutch Reformed
“It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter”
[Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

Donald Hagner
Contemporary Evangelical
“The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy”
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

More recent Protestants have been able to back away from the position that early Protestants felt forced to make and have been able to admit that Peter is, indeed, the rock. It remains to be seen whether they will start drawing the necessary inferences from this fact.

 

[Marymog]

"peter is the rock".
This is Catholic Theology, not NT Theology.
According to the NT< Jesus is the Rock, is the Cornerstone.
There is a reason that Peter has 2 chapters in the NT and Paul wrote 73%.

And about that "rock"...
The Church is founded on Jesus as the Head and built upon... HIM.
So what Created Christianity, is not Peter, but its the revelation that Peter had , and Jesus said..>"God has shown you this".
So, upon that REVELATION, is the Body of Christ (Church) Built upon and that Rock is CHRIST.
The revelation is that Jesus is the Son of God., the Messiah. The Savior. = THE ROCK.
God's family, the born again are not built upon "peter", it is built upon MESSIAH.

And yes, i know you will not hear this, as you been told your entire life, that Peter is the Rock.
You were misled, and you are not going to stop being misled, because for you to see this, would shake your faith in all those liars who have built your faith, on THEM and their teaching.

So, i know that you can't .. more then likely.. as this would turn your life inside out.
So, you'll just think that im wrong, and go with those who actually deceived you, as that is easier.
I think that you understand that Jesus Saves, and not the cup or Mary or the water.
So, as long as you have that, and even if the rest of what you believe is wrong.....
That is what is necessary.....As even if every other thing you believe is wrong.... "If".... as long as you are born again Spiritually, and not by "water".... you get to go to heaven, and in the end, that is what matters ....

Thank you....Who decides whom has been misled?

Curious

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well, when i say that it does not matter that everyone agrees..... im referring to how Teachers effect change.

A Forum is a different situation then a church building that has 4 walls and top and a congregation.
A Forum has members, and a Church building has a Congregation.
A church is paying me to teach them Light and a Forum is allowing me to do the same.

If i was in a Church building, and im teaching, then there are standards of doctrine and beliefs that have to be in place within my Group.
On a forum, you just have to deal with heretics, semi-heretics, new believers, and people who actually understand The Cross and the Blood Atonement.

In a church you can invite a heretic into the parking lot and ask them to never ever come back.
Which is NT correct behavior, as its Paul who said that if im dealing with a Heretic, and they will not listen, and just want to contradict....then im to give them 2x to listen, and if they will not, then i am to REJECT them.
Not Love them. Not invite them back..but to REJECT them... And this is because spiritual subversion is a cancer.. Its has killed the heretics "right believing", and they will infect a church and a forum.....so, That is why you cut them loose.
Titus 3:10.
This is yet again more of the "Unknown New Testament" that is 100% unknown to most Christian.
See, most Christians think that you are to show love love love love, in all cases, but that is not not not the case.
A Heretic will ruin people's Faith, so you have to get rid of them.. get them OUT of your church.
On a Forum, you put up with them, and you try to teach the other people instead, as a Heretic is not going to listen, and will only exist on a Forum to agitate real believers and try to block the Truth.

So, sure, in the context of a Church, where you can control the members, being the Head, then of course, we all have to be in union regarding what we believe about the principle doctrines and so forth.
But a forum, its online, its "blind", we dont even use our real names or photos.....Its just a lot of pretense and nonsense, and yet, there are always people found on Forums who love God and want to go farther within their Salvation, and so, they need a teacher.
Very few "universal invitation" forums, have a really strict TOS that does not allow certain doctrines to be taught.
This one , regarding the Mods, is probably going to shut down a Mormon or a JW, is my guess.
Other forums shut down Catholics.
Some Forums shut down anything that isn't in agreement with "Pre-destined Elect" theology.

So, when a Teacher goes to a Forum, you know you will be dealing with a wide ranging theological group, and so, its not necessary that they agree with you, as thats not going to happen across the board.
Teaching is like planting a garden. You seed, and God waters. You plant and God gives the harvest.

This forum welcomes all whom claim Christ.

There's a very wide variety of beliefs on here. Many people are here just to prove their point, some like the fellowship primarily, etc.

 

[RogerDC]

"peter is the rock".
This is Catholic Theology, not NT Theology.
According to the NT< Jesus is the Rock, is the Cornerstone.
There is a reason that Peter has 2 chapters in the NT and Paul wrote 73%.

And about that "rock"...
The Church is founded on Jesus as the Head and built upon... HIM.
So what Created Christianity, is not Peter, but its the revelation that Peter had , and Jesus said..>"God has shown you this".
So, upon that REVELATION, is the Body of Christ (Church) Built upon and that Rock is CHRIST.
The revelation is that Jesus is the Son of God., the Messiah. The Savior. = THE ROCK.
God's family, the born again are not built upon "peter", it is built upon MESSIAH.

And yes, i know you will not hear this, as you been told your entire life, that Peter is the Rock.
You were misled, and you are not going to stop being misled, because for you to see this, would shake your faith in all those liars who have built your faith, on THEM and their teaching.

So, i know that you can't .. more then likely.. as this would turn your life inside out.
So, you'll just think that im wrong, and go with those who actually deceived you, as that is easier.
I think that you understand that Jesus Saves, and not the cup or Mary or the water.
So, as long as you have that, and even if the rest of what you believe is wrong.....
That is what is necessary.....As even if every other thing you believe is wrong.... "If".... as long as you are born again Spiritually, and not by "water".... you get to go to heaven, and in the end, that is what matters ....

According to scripture (John 1:42), the very first time Jesus met Simon (Peter), Jesus changed Simon' name to Cephas (Peter), which means "rock". Why did Jesus do that? He didn't even know Simon, Jesus had only just met him.

 

[RogerDC]

Communion is supposed to help us focus more on JESUS, not focus more on the taking of, or the items, themselves.

Er, the Eucharist IS Jesus - you can't get any more focused than that.