I enjoyed reading your response, williemac
Therein lies the problem with the subject of free will. There is no universally agreed upon definition. However, I disagree with your assessment that Adam and Eve only had good choices.
Yeah, I see your point. Let me clarify - it seems to me that A&E spent their time making choices in the Garden - all the choices they made before choosing to eat the fruit were creative, good and pleasing to God because they were choosing within His Will. Now we know that they made a fatal decision to act outside of His Will at some point - who knows how long they were in the Garden or how long the serpent actually tempted Eve.
So here is my point - i agree with you that A&E had the ability to obey or disobey God, but I do not think they were made to determine right from wrong. Humans can swim for awhile too, but we were made for life on land. A&E were made to be in relationship with God and each other - it is humanities defining characteristic.
They were given one choice that was not a good one. If you could rightly stick up for them by using the excuse that it was an uninformed choice, then God would have had no just cause to administer consequences. Jesus once said.."forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". If you want to apply "they know not what they do" in the garden, then where was the forgiveness?
It was certainly an uninformed choice - A&E were fully human - fully alive, they had never seen death and could not conceive of it. As far as consequences for eating the fruit - they were not contingent on full awareness. If you are struck with a disease you get sick and you may die regardless of your knowledge of bacteria or viruses. A&E did not ask for forgiveness - instead they asked for clothes, which God made for them - I believe clothing in the story represents our false self or as Paul calls it, the old man. They had ceased to be vulnerable with God and remained in their sin or sickness. Jesus told the Pharisees that he came for the sick.
Also, God blocked them from the Tree of Life as a mercy. He allowed the natural consequences of their action affect the quality of their relationship with Him and each other. Then, He spent the rest of time wooing us back.
As well, what man is lacking is the ability to produce a righteous nature within himself. That is the reality in spite of what he would like to do or be if he could. But if you would merely consider the laws of our society, I think that you can see that people can indeed choose to obey them of disobey them. It happens all the time. As well, the marriage vows would be pointless and meaningless if they are not a reflection of the two partners choosing to have an intimate relationship with each other.
Well I think we disagree on this point. I think humanity follows community laws out of self preservation - it is a result of selfish desire to overcome our fear of death. What Jesus offers us is freedom from this isolation - He offers us what we ultimately crave - community, forgiveness, wholeness. I also disagree with CS Lewis' Mere Christianity on the same point - He believes that all of humanity has a moral conscience and it is proof of God. I think it says more about his lack of experience with other cultures.
I assume that by saying "without God", you are siding with the so called Calvinist theory that a person cannot respond to the gospel unless God first intervenes and causes him to do it. If that were the case, we would be faced with the concept that God is not seeking meaningful relationship with people. On the contrary, the gospel is a type of proposal. God was in His Son, reconciling the world to Himself- the proposal- and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, as though He were PLEADING through us, saying.."be reconciled to God.' (from 2Cor.5:19,20)
I am about as far from Calvinism as you can get - I am Roman Catholic. I do believe, however, that God has been actively wooing us back into relationship with us ever since A&E separated themselves from Him in the Garden. I believe that He has to approach us first, because the Bible tells us this is how He works. Romans 8 and Ephesians 1:11. Unlike Calvin, I believe we are all predestined for a relationship with God.
God is pleading? Maybe someone should inform Him that man cannot respond. No, this is a proposal, and our acceptance is the " I Do". Now, we don't have to call this free will, if it bothers anyone to do that. But whatever we call it, it certainly exists.
Yes, we now have to make an artificial choice - instead of living as we were created to live, naturally - we have to choose to respond to Christ's justification and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, because in our unredeemed state, we are incapable of of loving unselfishly.
