Paul's gospel must be accepted

[newnature]

Paul’s gospel must be accepted, it must be believed today, and you can be sure that confusion concerning that gospel through the use of a counterfeit gospel; a gospel that looks so much like Paul’s gospel that you’d not know the difference, if you didn’t clearly know Paul’s gospel, will be Satan’s focus in this age of grace.

One of Satan’s purpose in this age of grace is to confuse Paul’s gospel with a gospel so nearly to it, and there are many people out there today saying all you have to do is to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you’re saved. They believe this in almost every church across the board that Christ died, was buried and rose again, but what do they believe was accomplished by that death, burial and resurrection?

In their minds, they are separating themselves for God by their sin, and Paul is saying that God has already reconciled you where your sins are concerned. God is reconciled where the sins of the world are concerned, because he imputed those sins to Christ, that all who would believe what he imputed to Christ, that that resolved the sin issue forever, and are now joined to his son and have his righteousness freely counted to them, or imputed to their account.

Paul called it the ministry of reconciliation, Christ fulfilled the law for us, so we are identified with the righteousness of Christ the moment we take God at his word, obedient to the faith, concerning what Christ accomplished on our behalf. Today our service comes not out of apprehension to any of those things; our service today comes based solely on our appreciation for what Christ has already done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dcdkkkgEcE

The subject of reconciliation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOkizenjTD8

An appeal from Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sN6ee1CvjY

The Pauline pattern

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMnye-E8pA

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

 

[williemac]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Nice quote. Too bad it is taken out of context. That happens to be one of the most common causes of bad or errant doctrine.

If one keeps reading, one can find that Paul had no intention of leading anyone to believe that this is even remotely possible for any man, to be actually declared righteous through the law. Paul was clarifying a principle concerning the law, that one must keep it to be declared righteous. However, keep reading. He eventually concludes that which the law also concludes; that there is none righteous. In fact, in another letter, he explained that the very role of the law was/is to expose man's unrighteousness.

The law does in fact make the declaration; keep the law, and you will be declared righteous. My question to anyone who is willing to be honest....how's that workin' for ya?

 

[Axehead]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Would that be the law written in our heart activated and led by the Holy Spirit - Spirit of Grace?

Nice quote. Too bad it is taken out of context. That happens to be one of the most common causes of bad or errant doctrine.

If one keeps reading, one can find that Paul had no intention of leading anyone to believe that this is even remotely possible for any man, to be actually declared righteous through the law. Paul was clarifying a principle concerning the law, that one must keep it to be declared righteous. However, keep reading. He eventually concludes that which the law also concludes; that there is none righteous. In fact, in another letter, he explained that the very role of the law was/is to expose man's unrighteousness.

The law does in fact make the declaration; keep the law, and you will be declared righteous. My question to anyone who is willing to be honest....how's that workin' for ya?

Hey there Willie,

Even if they are not honest, "let God be true and every man a liar". We have the Scriptures that they have turned into an IDOL. And the Scriptures say that "none are righteous, no not one" and Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

"We are not to make the Torah into God Himself, nor the Bible into a "paper pope." The Bible is only the result of the Word of God. We can experience the return of the Word of God in the here and now, the perpetual return of the actual, living, indisputable Word of God that makes possible the act of witnessing, but we should never think of the Bible as any sort of talisman or oracle constantly at our disposal that we need only open and read to be in relation to the Word of God and God Himself." (Jacques Ellul - Living Faith: Belief and Doubt in a Perilous World)

 

[williemac]

Would that be the law written in our heart activated and led by the Holy Spirit - Spirit of Grace?


Hey there Willie,

Even if they are not honest, "let God be true and every man a liar". We have the Scriptures that they have turned into an IDOL. And the Scriptures say that "none are righteous, no not one" and Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

"We are not to make the Torah into God Himself, nor the Bible into a "paper pope." The Bible is only the result of the Word of God. We can experience the return of the Word of God in the here and now, the perpetual return of the actual, living, indisputable Word of God that makes possible the act of witnessing, but we should never think of the Bible as any sort of talisman or oracle constantly at our disposal that we need only open and read to be in relation to the Word of God and God Himself." (Jacques Ellul - Living Faith: Belief and Doubt in a Perilous World)

Amen. The only hope we have is to be delivered from the curse of the law. We are indeed called to bear fruit and to live a godly life, but this calling is not motivated through threat of penalty as was in the past. Paul's letters make this point over and over. The old thinking and errant thinking is : salvation by works. The new way of thinking is; salvation first,works being the effect, not the cause.
But as we have seen, there are many who claim that the effect, being the works, still hold a curse within them if not done to a particular standard. So in their world the curse apparently was not taken away but merely deferred.

But Paul actually had plenty of revelation to share on this subject. What he knew and shared is that the reason the curse is lifted is because it was/is fulfilled by not only the death of Jesus but also by the death of the old man in us by proxy. The old man of sin is declared dead, crucified with Christ. Now, if God were to kill us, it would be similar to digging up a grave, taking out a dead, previously executed criminal, and executing him again.

 

[veteran]

Believing that Jesus died on the cross for the remission of sins and there's no more sins a believer need be concerned with is NOT The Gospel that Apostle Paul preached!


Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(KJV)

That's Apostle Paul speaking in that above Romans 3 Scripture, for those harder-headed folks.

Notice he specifically said Christ remitted "sins that are past" for the believer, not all sins one may commit future of that point of receiving Christ Jesus as The Saviour.

This is why Apostle John in 1 John 1 speaks of the important matter of repenting and asking forgiveness of sins we may commit in the future. Thus Repentance and Forgiveness is also an on-going matter in a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul also said for us to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling...

Phil 2:12-16
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
(KJV)

Is Paul preaching there that no matter WHAT you do since you've become a believer on Christ, there's no further capability of sinning in the future? NO! Of course not! Working it out with "fear and trembling" is just the OPPOSITE of that idea. This is why he says there that he hopes his work in Christ will not be in vain for those, meaning his hope they will not fall away from Christ so as to be presented blameless and harmless as the sons of God.


So the gospel the OP is preaching is a FALSE gospel. And it is BY DESIGN brethren. Bet yal didn't know that. These mega-preachers are after MONEY. They see BIG MONEY at the end of it, for what person wouldn't want to think that they could live aligned with this world in sin and know they will be saved by Christ?

I truly feel sorry for those kind of preachers that push that false gospel, because when our Lord Jesus returns they will then learn the difference in this.

 

[williemac]

Veteran: John, in 1John, did not say that one needs to repent of any sins done in the future. I would have considered this if you had shared a passage to that effect. I therefore have to assume that you are referring to 1John1:9. If that is the case, then in the first place that passage does not use the word 'repent', but rather the confession of sin. So this would call into play the doctrine of continual confessions in order to be forgiven over and over by God. There is no such biblical concept. Repentance unto salvation is a one time event. It does not happen over and over. This is confirmed in Heb.6:1-6.

Here is the confusion; The first chapter of that letter is an introduction to several concepts. It is widely believed and taught that historically, there were certain gnostic beliefs that were present back then that interfered with the progress of the gospel. One of these beliefs was that there is no sin. Similar beliefs exist today. So John was correcting this by saying that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But if we confess our sin, then God is faithful and just to forgive it and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He was explaining a principle that is necessary for salvation.

This confession of sin is necessary to be saved. When he states that one is cleansed from all unrighteousness, he means ALL. This is a one time event called the new birth.

Then John goes on, and in chapter 2, he addresses them as "my little children", telling them that he is writing them so that they may not sin. "But if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father; Jesus. Christ the righteous" (2:1) In this verse, there is no mention of either confession or repentance. The reality is that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, ever continuing to make intercession for us. He is our continual advocate, our perpetual High Priest before the Father.

The past sins, or as the NKJ calls it, "the sins that were previously committed" (Rom.3:25), are referring to the sins that were committed before Jesus died. I don't know which version you are quoting from, but my NKJ says this:.." whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, BECAUSE IN HIS FORBEARANCE, GOD HAD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED". (Rom.3:25) Had passed over. Past tense. Then in vs. 26, the thought continues..." to demonstrate AT THE PRESENT TIME His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" Vs.28 gives a conclusion: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith APART FROM THE DEEDS OF THE LAW" .

It is easy to create an impression of truth by quoting things from all over the place out of their context. But this strategy is flawed and undependable for accurate knowledge of bible doctrine.

 

[Rex]

Veteran: John, in 1John, did not say that one needs to repent of any sins done in the future. I would have considered this if you had shared a passage to that effect. I therefore have to assume that you are referring to 1John1:9. If that is the case, then in the first place that passage does not use the word 'repent', but rather the confession of sin. So this would call into play the doctrine of continual confessions in order to be forgiven over and over by God. There is no such biblical concept. Repentance unto salvation is a one time event. It does not happen over and over. This is confirmed in Heb.6:1-6.

I agree and would like to add that a bit latter in Heb 6:1-6 we read "Bold below" If what is being said by some our future sins are not yet forgiven, we can not possibly crucify again Jesus every time we fall and sin.

4 For it is
impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the
heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To the Romans 3:25 verse I believe it is a reference to all that lived before "by faith" like Moses and Abraham must also enter in threw Christ, BECAUSE IN HIS FORBEARANCE, GOD HAD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED I don't believe he is speaking of someone in the sense of sin before knowing or being born again and after. For surly we don't crucify Jesus for every sin.

In Jeremiah 31:34 NKJV I believe he not only forgives our sin but also our iniquity, which he is speaking of the new covenant
Iniquity Noun


Immoral or grossly unfair behavior.

 

[williemac]

I agree and would like to add that a bit latter in Heb 6:1-6 we read "Bold below" If what is being said by some our future sins are not yet forgiven, we can not possibly crucify again Jesus every time we fall and sin.

4 For it is
impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the
heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To the Romans 3:25 verse I believe it is a reference to all that lived before "by faith" like Moses and Abraham must also enter in threw Christ, BECAUSE IN HIS FORBEARANCE, GOD HAD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED I don't believe he is speaking of someone in the sense of sin before knowing or being born again and after. For surly we don't crucify Jesus for every sin.

In Jeremiah 31:34 NKJV I believe he not only forgives our sin but also our iniquity, which he is speaking of the new covenant
Iniquity Noun
Immoral or grossly unfair behavior.

Thanks for noticing the important part of Heb.6. I would like to add further comment.

The point of course is that it is impossible to be saved more than one time. So if we are to accept what some say about how one can lose salvation, then most Christians have lost it already and cannot repeat the repentance that brought him this salvation in the first place.
Which begs the question....repentance from what? Sin? The word repentance comes from two Greek words...roughly "meta" and "noya" Meta means change and noya means mind. Such words as metamorphisis and paranoya come from these root words.

Therefore when we see the word repent, we cannot tell what it is that is being repented from without looking at the context. One can repent from any number of things, including sin, unbelief, pride. God Himself is said to have repented, as He was sorry that He made mankind. Did God sin? No, of course not. Therefore the word repent was never designed to be automatically associated with sin. This is an error that many have made when they read this word. The word needs a subject behind it in order for it to be clear just what it is that it applies to.

Here is my point. I have found nowhere in scripture where it specifically says that repentance from sin is a requirement for salvation. Is repentance required? Apparently so. But from what? Well, when looking at such passages as Rom.10:9,10, where we see no mention of repentance, what would we attach to that passage in regards to repentance?

When the people on the day of Pentecost witnessed the tongues and asked what this means, Peter stood up and addressed the whole crowd in one language. He proceeded to let them know that the man that they had rejected and killed was their Messiah, sent from God. They were cut to the heart and asked "what shall we do?" The reply was "repent and be baptized in His name for the remission of sin". Repent from what? What was thier fault? They were told that they had rejected their Savior. In this case they were told to change their mind about Him and instead of rejecting Him, be baptized in His name. And get this: "for the remission of sin"

So tell me, which Einstein came up with the idea that the thing we are to repent of is that which is being remitted by God? Which is it? Is God going to solve the sin issue through remission of sin, or do we solve it by not sinning anymore? Which of these two will actually be the most effective? Under the law, how many were successful in repenting from sin to the point of being declared righteous? Yeh, right; NONE!

So back to Heb.6:1-6. If one is to fall away, it will be impossible to renew him again to repentance. Fall away from what? Hey everyone, FYI. The underlying theme of Hebrews is FAITH!! If one falls away by rejecting Jesus through unbelief, he will be lost permanently (refer also to Heb.10:39). If one should sin on the other hand, as John said, we have an advocate with the Father (1John2:1).

Conclusion: Sin is not the subject of Heb.6:1-6. And of course, your comment on Rom.3:25 is spot on.
Blessings, Howie

 

[veteran]

Repentance of sins to Christ for future sins is a DAILY need for some folks. And that's what our Lord requires of us if we do mess up even after having believed on Him and been baptized.


In 1 John 1 he is not talking to the unbelieving, but to followers of Christ Jesus, those who had already believed...

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)


So you think you're no longer a sinner after having believed on Christ Jesus and been baptized? Good luck with that!

 

[williemac]

Repentance of sins to Christ for future sins is a DAILY need for some folks. And that's what our Lord requires of us if we do mess up even after having believed on Him and been baptized.


In 1 John 1 he is not talking to the unbelieving, but to followers of Christ Jesus, those who had already believed...

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)


So you think you're no longer a sinner after having believed on Christ Jesus and been baptized? Good luck with that!

Did you even read my post? I have never said I no longer sin. I was clarifying the passage in 1John. There seems to be some confusion here, that somehow confession is equivalent to repentance. How is it that you can read a passage, see the word "confess", and then use it to promote repentance? If you don't know or care that these two words are not the same and do not mean the same, then We have nothing further to talk about. I will not waste my time with nonesense.

But I must also add that I never said John was talking to the unbelieveing. In Rom.10:9,10, Paul is speaking to those who are in Christ, telling them what one must do to be saved. Were they not saved? Of course they already were. This is a simple matter of teaching. The believers are being taught certain principles of salvation. So also is the case in 1John.


This thread speaks of the relevancy of Paul's teachings. But I want to point out one of Jesus' teachings. Here it is from John 5:24:
" Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, AND SHALL NOT SEE JUDGMENT, but has passed from death to life." If one rejects Paul, then what will he do with thes words from Jesus?
Here is the secret to freedom, to joy, to assurance, to the guaruntee of our redemption. Not that we will completely stop sinning in this life, but that there will no longer be a judgment in regards to sin for those who are in Christ. As the passage in 1John 2:1 indicates, Jesus is our advocate if and when we do sin.
The judgment seat of Christ is what we will face. But this seat is not for the determination of our eternal life or death. It is to determine our rewards either given or taken away for our life lived in Him. The judgment that we have escaped through faith is that of the Great White Throne. We will not see that judgment. We have passed from death to life.

Those who refuse to accept this promise by Jesus (and detailed in Paul's teachings), are destined to live in constant fear and worry, ever repenting and confessing sin over and over to retain salvation and some even hoping that they have no unconfessed sin that might send them to hell. Paul was merely revealing what was revealed to him by our Lord, Savior, King, Advocate, High Priest, Head....etc. If one wants to repent of something, try unbelief first. That is a good start.

 

[veteran]

Confessing one's sins is... one of the first steps to repentance, and I'm not talking about Catholicism either.