Paul's Rhetoric AGAINST Works did not include Works of Faith

[Angelina]

Gospel only makes sense in terms of God's Commands (Law).

Purity is right. It is easier for a Jew to be saved in the time of Jesus before they made him God.

Since the Jew KNOWS the need for sacrifice and the need for propitiation. Hint: he recited the Shema every day. He KNOWS how hard it is to do, to love the ONE GOD with all of his heart soul and might.

Anyone can easily do the Ten. I know besides the sabbath law, may heathens who are 'good.'

It is GOD's definition of GOOD which must be considered. Shema. Why? Why since it is the GREAT COMMAND. Eh. Um. Duh and buh.

The Gospel indeed makes sense in terms of Gods commands because without the law there would be no way to determine when one sinned. If it were easier for the Jewish community to be saved during Jesus's ministry, there would be many Jews saved during that time but many Jews particularly those who held positions of power did not receive Jesus as the coming Messiah because they did not believe him and many of them tried to kill him. To love God with all our heart, soul and mind and strength is a daily reality for every Christian believer. It is not a heavy burden specifically set aside for the Jewish community to bear....

Well actually no-one could do the ten,,,that is one of the reasons Jesus had to come.....

Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Shalom and Peace~

 

[nothead]

.


The Gospel indeed makes sense in terms of Gods commands because without the law there would be no way to determine when one sinned. If it were easier for the Jewish community to be saved during Jesus's ministry, there would be many Jews saved during that time but many Jews particularly those who held positions of power did not receive Jesus as the coming Messiah because they did not believe him and many of them tried to kill him. To love God with all our heart, soul and mind and strength is a daily reality for every Christian believer. It is not a heavy burden specifically set aside for the Jewish community to bear....

Well actually no-one could do the ten,,,that is one of the reasons Jesus had to come.....

No the Ten are doable. You are just puppeting something you heard from some genius in your past...the Shema is undoable, yet God said to just do it. Your life's tension and plot, if you knew what nothead knows...

Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Shalom and Peace~

Believing brings on the Circumcision of the Heart. But too Jesus acts as the Perfect Lamb not because he is God but rather because he accomplished the impossible command.

 

[shturt678]

Gospel only makes sense in terms of God's Commands (Law).

Purity is right. It is easier for a Jew to be saved in the time of Jesus before they made him God.

Since the Jew KNOWS the need for sacrifice and the need for propitiation. Hint: he recited the Shema every day. He KNOWS how hard it is to do, to love the ONE GOD with all of his heart soul and might.

Anyone can easily do the Ten. I know besides the sabbath law, may heathens who are 'good.'

It is GOD's definition of GOOD which must be considered. Shema. Why? Why since it is the GREAT COMMAND. Eh. Um. Duh and buh.

Thank you again for your response!

God's commands only makes sense in terms of the gospel, ie, Deut.6:4 & Mk.12:29 = Gospel!

Old gospeling Jack

 

[nothead]

Gospel only makes sense in terms of God's Commands (Law).

Purity is right. It is easier for a Jew to be saved in the time of Jesus before they made him God.

Since the Jew KNOWS the need for sacrifice and the need for propitiation. Hint: he recited the Shema every day. He KNOWS how hard it is to do, to love the ONE GOD with all of his heart soul and might.

Anyone can easily do the Ten. I know besides the sabbath law, may heathens who are 'good.'

It is GOD's definition of GOOD which must be considered. Shema. Why? Why since it is the GREAT COMMAND. Eh. Um. Duh and buh.

Thank you again for your response!

God's commands only makes sense in terms of the gospel, ie, Deut.6:4 & Mk.12:29 = Gospel!

Old gospeling Jack

Rather PROPITIATION only makes sense in terms of us not being able to do God's Law. And again, look at the Ten, are they doable or not?

Lettuce look at the actual Ten, which is more complicated than I was taught in Sunday school.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
7. Thou shalt not kill.
8. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
9. Thou shalt not steal.
10. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
11. Thou shalt not covet

Wow, how did I get eleven? Maybe I should write a book about the eleventh command! Make a fortune!

So then which of these are not doable, reasonably speaking? I mean I might say, covet my neighbors Corvette, and yet this covetousness don't CONSUME ME.

But rather the Shema says to be CONSUMED with the love of God, all your heart soul and might, and who of us is? And without the Holy Spirit, are ANY of us? Do you see the difference, sir?

 

[shturt678]

Rather PROPITIATION only makes sense in terms of us not being able to do God's Law. And again, look at the Ten, are they doable or not?

Lettuce look at the actual Ten, which is more complicated than I was taught in Sunday school.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
7. Thou shalt not kill.
8. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
9. Thou shalt not steal.
10. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
11. Thou shalt not covet

Wow, how did I get eleven? Maybe I should write a book about the eleventh command! Make a fortune!

So then which of these are not doable, reasonably speaking? I mean I might say, covet my neighbors Corvette, and yet this covetousness don't CONSUME ME.

But rather the Shema says to be CONSUMED with the love of God, all your heart soul and might, and who of us is? And without the Holy Spirit, are ANY of us? Do you see the difference, sir?

Thank you again for your response!

"Hear, Israel!" Right here "faith" is required which Rom.10:17 tells us comes by hearing, ie, Mk.12:29 = Gospel = "faith"

btw actually there were 14 commands, not considering the 35 sub-commands, eg, Deut.5:6-21.

Be patiance with yourself, you'll get it?

Old Jackster

'Patience' is bitter but its result is sweet, correct?

btw we also need to move your faith along, ie, agape (not the Anglisized "love") means to intelligently understand the true God for a corresponding higher intelligent purpose and turn to Him with all 24/7.

 

[nothead]

Thank you again for your response!

"Hear, Israel!" Right here "faith" is required which Rom.10:17 tells us comes by hearing, ie, Mk.12:29 = Gospel = "faith"

btw actually there were 14 commands, not considering the 35 sub-commands, eg, Deut.5:6-21.

Be patiance with yourself, you'll get it?

Old Jackster

'Patience' is bitter but its result is sweet, correct?

btw we also need to move your faith along, ie, agape (not the Anglisized "love") means to intelligently understand the true God for a corresponding higher intelligent purpose and turn to Him with all 24/7.

Some of Deuteronomy extrapolates different ways of saying the same basic thing. Wow, Old Jack read your own reference again. 3 verses on the Sabbath Law don't make the one of the Ten 2 more than Ten. The sabbath law is a generalization of the three, with two commentaries on the one.

A rabbi can help you learn the diff, in case you have the time and inclination...

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Not only that but the things God told his chosen people were not lies, but the truth. Old Covenant morphs into New since the Jews could not ACCOMPLISH it.

But you have to understand the Old in order to understand the New. This is where Shema fits in.

Nothead,

You are the same predicament here as you are in the propitiation thread. You have got to stop and read the book of Hebrews! You will see how the old fits with the new. Oh...I forgot...you don't need to read the book of Hebrews....you are too smart for Hebrews...you got half the story and don't want the rest. (Your own words about not needing to read Hebrews)

God keeps pointing you to the truth in these threads, but you appear too bent on "teaching us". Something else you miss is that we have no need of nothead to teach us. We aren't afraid to read the book of Hebrews....so Christ teaches us. I will stick with His teaching.

This is all about Christ...always has been since the foundation of the world...still is....always will be.

Besides...how can you expect us to trust the word of a "man" who refers to himself in the third person? What makes it even worse is...you refer to yourself by your third person alter ego screen name. Secondhand Lion thinks there may be some psychosis at work here.

Stop for a minute, consider...maybe God is trying to reach you...not have you reach us.

SL

 

[nothead]

Nothead,

You are the same predicament here as you are in the propitiation thread. You have got to stop and read the book of Hebrews! You will see how the old fits with the new. Oh...I forgot...you don't need to read the book of Hebrews....you are too smart for Hebrews...you got half the story and don't want the rest. (Your own words about not needing to read Hebrews)

God keeps pointing you to the truth in these threads, but you appear too bent on "teaching us". Something else you miss is that we have no need of nothead to teach us. We aren't afraid to read the book of Hebrews....so Christ teaches us. I will stick with His teaching.

This is all about Christ...always has been since the foundation of the world...still is....always will be.

Besides...how can you expect us to trust the word of a "man" who refers to himself in the third person? What makes it even worse is...you refer to yourself by your third person alter ego screen name. Secondhand Lion thinks there may be some psychosis at work here.

Stop for a minute, consider...maybe God is trying to reach you...not have you reach us.

SL

Please show nothead how the Book of Hebrews refutes his own theology.

As far as nothead is concerned, every book and every author agrees with him.

Rather, nothead agrees with every NT author not to mention all the OT ones, even Ruth.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Secondhand Lion thinks nothead has not read Hebrews if nothead can't see it for notheadself. Nothead may not understand fulfillment vs refutation. nothead no understand Christ's fulfillment of all. Hebrews (Christ) teach nothead fulfillment not Secondhand Lion.

SL

 

[nothead]

Secondhand Lion thinks nothead has not read Hebrews if nothead can't see it for notheadself. Nothead may not understand fulfillment vs refutation. nothead no understand Christ's fulfillment of all. Hebrews (Christ) teach nothead fulfillment not Secondhand Lion.

SL

Nothead believes Mr. Hebrews knows exactly what he knows. And wrote it down before him only because he was BORN before him. Amen and good night.

Is it beddy bye time, or did I just knock yo' lights out? Whoo hoo.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Nothead believes Mr. Hebrews knows exactly what he knows. And wrote it down before him only because he was BORN before him. Amen and good night.

Is it beddy bye time, or did I just knock yo' lights out? Whoo hoo.

You are getting closer and closer to just saying you are God. Why not just say it?

Tell us you are god. God wrote Hebrews. God doesn't know anymore about anything than you do? Just come out and finally say it...or are you only man enough to knock my lights out?

SL

 

[JoJoRoss]

Here is my take on this post. Let me know what you guys think :)


There is the difference between "Good Works"(that comes from Faith in Jesus) vs "Works of The Law"(from Moses).


"GOOD WORKS"

Romans 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 Timothy 2:10
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1 Timothy 5:9-11
No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.

1 Timothy 5:25
Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

1 Timothy 6:17-18
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

2 Timothy 3:16-18
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Titus 3:14
And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works

1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.


---------------

"WORKS OF THE LAW"

Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.



We must have good works from faith in Christ. How does good works deal with our salvation?

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ah ha! That's the answer. THAT is why and HOW righteousness comes by faith. Righteousness is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. The spirit.....WORKETH. You see? But the Spirit does not WORKETH by works of the law, but the hearing of faith!

That is how righteousness is given as a gift for our salvation:

Philippians 3:8-9
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith



Christ gives the power to do good works. We must have the good works for our salvation:

James 2:14-What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:24-You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:26-For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

We have to have the Holy Spirit in us to perform the good works of faith for our salvation.

In my opinion a lot of Christians just stay at the cross of Jesus and do not move to the resurrection(LIFE) of Jesus.

Romans 5:10-For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.



Good works matter for our salvation not the works of the law! What are good works?

Romans 14
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.




Gods Peace,

JoJo

 

[shturt678]

Some of Deuteronomy extrapolates different ways of saying the same basic thing. Wow, Old Jack read your own reference again. 3 verses on the Sabbath Law don't make the one of the Ten 2 more than Ten. The sabbath law is a generalization of the three, with two commentaries on the one.

A rabbi can help you learn the diff, in case you have the time and inclination...

Thank you again for your response!

Only had a couple of weeks of the Rabbinic Halakah, yet a full semester on the "10" or was it the "14," been almost three decades. However thank you anyway. btw the Rabbis here where I live agape me at a long distance for some reason?

Old Jack that sinfually works hard not to do works of faith, ie, confession time.

 

[williemac]

Rom.10:9,10 reveals how salvation is acquired, and no works of any kind are mentioned there, but merely faith and confession. The trouble with this kind of thread is that invariably it enters into whether works are valid and which ones are valid. However, works are a foregone conclusion. They will happen and are valid. However, the op is about Paul's teaching on works, and this is where this thread has gone astray in general. In regards to salvation, there are no works at all that can be done by any human that will result in God responding to them with the reward of life. In Rom.ch.5, we can see that Paul told his readers that it is the righteousness and obedience of One Man (Jesus), that is imputed to us through faith.

A few replies have insisted that the works of the ten commandments are do-able. Funny, because the bible tells us that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory, and it also tells us that there is none righteous, no not one. ( with the exclusion of Jesus, of course). So the do-ability of the ten is relative. Furthermore, no man will be declared righteous on the basis of his success in keeping them. They were not given for the purpose of exalting a man's own righteousness.The offense of self exaltation was the first transgression ever made, by Lucifer. God will not allow this offense to flourish or be rewarded. He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. This is the point of Paul's teaching on the subject, who declared that there will not be an arena for boasting....." Not of works...not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast". I hear and read a lot of boasting on this website.

No works of any kind by the believer are rewarded with life. They are the result of life having been given. Therefore they are not considered to be our own works, but rather His works in us and through us. Furthermore, they will happen all on their own, unless resisted (as in the talent that was buried). The question will be to what degree they happen in one person or another, which will determine the measure of reward given at the judgment seat of Christ. those rewards are our incentive. Eternal life is not our incentive for works. It is a free gift. Free means free. There is no fine print. The only thing that can stop it is the refusal to accept it as such. (by working for it, for example, or by not wanting it at all).

 

[shturt678]

Rom.10:9,10 reveals how salvation is acquired, and no works of any kind are mentioned there, but merely faith and confession. The trouble with this kind of thread is that invariably it enters into whether works are valid and which ones are valid. However, works are a foregone conclusion. They will happen and are valid. However, the op is about Paul's teaching on works, and this is where this thread has gone astray in general. In regards to salvation, there are no works at all that can be done by any human that will result in God responding to them with the reward of life. In Rom.ch.5, we can see that Paul told his readers that it is the righteousness and obedience of One Man (Jesus), that is imputed to us through faith.

A few replies have insisted that the works of the ten commandments are do-able. Funny, because the bible tells us that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory, and it also tells us that there is none righteous, no not one. ( with the exclusion of Jesus, of course). So the do-ability of the ten is relative. Furthermore, no man will be declared righteous on the basis of his success in keeping them. They were not given for the purpose of exalting a man's own righteousness.The offense of self exaltation was the first transgression ever made, by Lucifer. God will not allow this offense to flourish or be rewarded. He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. This is the point of Paul's teaching on the subject, who declared that there will not be an arena for boasting....." Not of works...not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast". I hear and read a lot of boasting on this website.

No works of any kind by the believer are rewarded with life. They are the result of life having been given. Therefore they are not considered to be our own works, but rather His works in us and through us. Furthermore, they will happen all on their own, unless resisted (as in the talent that was buried). The question will be to what degree they happen in one person or another, which will determine the measure of reward given at the judgment seat of Christ. those rewards are our incentive. Eternal life is not our incentive for works. It is a free gift. Free means free. There is no fine print. The only thing that can stop it is the refusal to accept it as such. (by working for it, for example, or by not wanting it at all).[/QUOTE]

Thank you for caring!

I don't think the thread has too far astray, ie, at Rom.10:9-10, Paul assumes one is "born again" before one voices a 'confession, ie, one just doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior, and confesses this then has a ticket to heaven?

Let's not carry doing nothing too far, ie, Lk.6:47-49, "and did not do" Modernistic faith has emasculated the true gospel especially in today's hypergrace.

Only my opinion, old Jack

[/QUOTE]

 

[nothead]

Some of Deuteronomy extrapolates different ways of saying the same basic thing. Wow, Old Jack read your own reference again. 3 verses on the Sabbath Law don't make the one of the Ten 2 more than Ten. The sabbath law is a generalization of the three, with two commentaries on the one.

A rabbi can help you learn the diff, in case you have the time and inclination...

Thank you again for your response!

Only had a couple of weeks of the Rabbinic Halakah, yet a full semester on the "10" or was it the "14," been almost three decades. However thank you anyway. btw the Rabbis here where I live agape me at a long distance for some reason?

Old Jack that sinfually works hard not to do works of faith, ie, confession time.

They agape you from long distance since your God has three heads...minds, wills and self perception, sir. This is the first reason.