Pedophiles - it's not their fault

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HammerStone

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Well, I mean is this not the byproduct of biasing the material over everything else?

I'd back up a minute to a topic that has all but been totally routed in the wider culture. Sex prior to marriage. The language these days all centers around words and phrases like "consent," "consenting adults," , etc. So in a hypothetical relationship between a guy and girl for a one night stand, the "relationship" would pass muster because the resulting sex would be consensual which checks the box. However, if set female gets pregnant, then that is very much a function of natural process and inherent nature (IE: the desire to procreate), but is it not possible that it is an overall bad thing for the girl when she either opts to have the child or decides to have an abortion? Many would argue no, of course, but I think an honest assessment would be the consequences are bad even though it may be a perfectly "natural" inclination. At the very base of it, the event will cost resources the poor girl likely doesn't have, strain relationships, and induce new stress into her life. Obviously, I think there are even greater consequences, but you get the point, I hope.

I mean, essentially, the language of our day is that if it's genetic, it's more or less permissible and needs acceptance. This front just happens to be hottest in the area of sexuality. It's already the working assumption in the arena of heterosexuality and homosexuality, with the latter actually skipping over any such confirming discovery and simply being presumed at this point.

Then, we have the Bible over there screaming in the book of Romans, of course, that it's more or less a genetic disposition to be a sinner, but that does not mean we must follow through on the genetics! It's really a very strange conversation about destiny if you think about it. I'd love to be smart enough to develop an apologetical argument to this, but to me this quickly becomes an appeal to reason and/or emotions. I'm not terribly convinced that we can develop a material rejoinder to the argument that purports empirical data simply says it's natural. It's no longer a physical argument, but rather very much a spiritual one.

And River, the same thing was said about homosexuality, so while no one in this conversation may be saying let's make it acceptable, it's the ultimate backdoor to acceptance as soon as it's declared to be genetic. If one is determined to be subject to genetics, then the responsibility begins to get transferred either to society to accept the thing and make it 100% okay or society is supposed to bear the costs of the person's thing. In other words, it's not the pedophiles fault, because humanity must use science to combat this given that this is known to be genetic. Which, traditionally, that has resulted in eventual acceptance. For evidence of this, see where we are at in the drug war and with homosexuality.
 

River Jordan

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HammerStone said:
And River, the same thing was said about homosexuality, so while no one in this conversation may be saying let's make it acceptable, it's the ultimate backdoor to acceptance as soon as it's declared to be genetic.
No, that's not true. It's not been established that there's a genetic or biological basis for homosexuality, and whether it is or is a choice is irrelevant to the legal questions and issues it raises. So your appeal to the slippery slope isn't compelling.

If one is determined to be subject to genetics, then the responsibility begins to get transferred either to society to accept the thing and make it 100% okay or society is supposed to bear the costs of the person's thing. In other words, it's not the pedophiles fault, because humanity must use science to combat this given that this is known to be genetic. Which, traditionally, that has resulted in eventual acceptance. For evidence of this, see where we are at in the drug war and with homosexuality.
Sorry, but pedophilia, by its very nature (sex with children) is a fundamentally different entity than homosexuality or drug use. I hope you're able to appreciate that.
 

HammerStone

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No, that's not true. It's not been established that there's a genetic or biological basis for homosexuality, and whether it is or is a choice is irrelevant to the legal questions and issues it raises. So your appeal to the slippery slope isn't compelling
Well, you're free to continue to make that slippery slope assertion fallacy, of course, but it is precisely germane in that it's not been "proven" in the empirical sense. That piece was merely skipped over and presumed with the supposition that science will one day catch up. I'm not here to dispute that one way or another, but the assertions of this article could very easily be read back into the early forms of reparative gay therapy. I can also make that statement without asserting that homosexuality are equal to pedophiles, which is of course the subtle ideological red-herring jab taken anytime anybody thinks outside of the materialistic box.


Sorry, but pedophilia, by its very nature (sex with children) is a fundamentally different entity than homosexuality or drug use. I hope you're able to appreciate that.
Okay, so let's take away the sensitive issue of homosexuality and avoid the inevitable assertion of the immediate equation of the two. Let's just focus on drug use/abuse. How are they (drug abuse and pedophilia) different? Consent? Case, meet point. Both are sinful, as generally defined by society, though drug use is in the process of morphing into the same place as alcohol, that it's acceptable until it hurts someone else. Both are indeed conditions of sin in the Bible. The premise of the Bible is that "all fall short" (Romans 3:23), so all have sinned. All are predisposed to sin.
 

River Jordan

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HammerStone said:
Well, you're free to continue to make that slippery slope assertion fallacy, of course, but it is precisely germane in that it's not been "proven" in the empirical sense.
Because when it comes to homosexuality, legally it doesn't matter if it's a choice or genetic. As far as the law is concerned, it's something between two consenting adults. Pedophilia OTOH is....well, we know what it is, neither consenting nor adult....so it's wrong, regardless of whether it's genetic or a choice.

The key question though is, if it is genetic, does that change what we do with them? We know it's wrong no matter what and we don't want them to ever do it, so how do we accomplish that? Lock them up forever? Treat the genetic condition (if there is one)? Something else?

How are they (drug abuse and pedophilia) different? Consent? Case, meet point. Both are sinful, as generally defined by society, though drug use is in the process of morphing into the same place as alcohol, that it's acceptable until it hurts someone else. Both are indeed conditions of sin in the Bible. The premise of the Bible is that "all fall short" (Romans 3:23), so all have sinned. All are predisposed to sin.
Are you saying that because society is becoming more lax on drug laws, it will eventually become more lax on pedophilia too?
 

pom2014

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Well let's just focus on the root if the issue, sex.

Humans are sexually active within the womb. They are this way because sex is the fundamental way humans spread genetic information. Just as plants send pollen out into the air, not really caring who or what it affects; so too the human animal really doesn't care on a base level what or who they have sex with.

Antiquity illuminates this many times in art and literature. If we go by the literal interpretation of Genesis, then all of man is born of incest. (A sin by the law later given to man). We have many references to sex with animal, vegetable or mineral without any conscience. Its primal, raw and without restraints.

This kind of behavior is hard wired into humans. This is no different than many other base desires of man. We over eat because of thousands of years of hunger instilled the need to eat when it Was plentiful. We over drink because it triggers pleasure in the brain when drinking so more equals more pleasure. We have sex the same way.

The sin is always in defilement by excesses or through unloving behaviors.

To have sex with your spouse, even vigorous and sensual sex, is where we need to be on our rightful desires. But to have sex with anything that moves is defilement and unrighteous.

Hence the sex deviant, the homosexual, the paedophile are all going beyond that sexuality that God made and are into excess and defilement.

They all have the base desire to do it. But have no RIGHT to act upon it.

Just as drinking two glasses of wine is ok and three bottles at one sitting is bad. Having sex with your spouse is good, having sex with anything or anyone is bad.

So again the nature of man is sexual and result given to excess. It is hard wired, genetic and acting upon it is part of the sinful state of humans. So yes the paedophile IS most certainly predisposed to her/his desire, but acting upon it is when it becomes an issue of defilement and breach of civil law.

It does not excuse, but it does explain how it begins. Were it not for religion and moral indoctrination, people would be having sex with anything and anyone. Just as many animals do.

We are separate from our animal kin due to the fact we have, most times, Prudence, restraint and ethics.

Its easy to forget we, as part of creation, are still closely related to it.
 

Phoneman777

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Angelina said:
I don't believe there is a biological basis for sexual sin. It's inherited through the family line by an ancestor who delved in the area.. The spirit continues down from family to family until it is challenged by the power of the Holy Spirit and eventually cast out... :huh:

Freedom comes from an encounter with Christ our savior and deliverer through the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Amen! I completely agree with you, though that line of reasoning certainly seems to be becoming the minority view.
 
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aspen

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Pedopilia involves sex without consent. It does not matter if it is genetic or behavioral - it violates another human beings rights. An alcoholic who kills someone in an accident has probably lost control at some point - he didn't mean to hurt anyone, but he is still culpable.
 
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aspen

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Pedopilia involves sex without consent. It does not matter if it is genetic or behavioral - it violates another human beings rights. An alcoholic who kills someone in an accident has probably lost control at some point - he didn't mean to hurt anyone, but he is still culpable.
 

Forsakenone

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I would be curious to know how a person is born with a sexual preference or desire when they would not have sexual desires until puberty unless they are exposed to it while prepubescent..
 

aspen

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Forsakenone said:
I would be curious to know how a person is born with a sexual preference or desire when they would not have sexual desires until puberty unless they are exposed to it while prepubescent..
We are created with sexual desires. The are present in the fetus.
 

pom2014

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aspen said:
We are created with sexual desires. The are present in the fetus.
Absolutely. We are geared towards sex as it is the only way to procreate without a lab.

It is one of the three basic needs of biological life.
 

Axehead

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Rape is demonic.

Rev_18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

We forget so easily that men who open themselves up to foul spirits through the lust of the flesh will receive those foul spirits. The foul spirits will take up residence in them because they are being welcomed in, whether or not the man understands the spiritual dynamics of how the powers of darkness operate. If you sin, you are potentially opening up yourself to the powers of darkness.

Angelina had it right that deliverance from "every foul spirit" comes through the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Demons are devouring a lot of people and the conduit into their lives are the "works of the flesh" and the "lusts of the flesh".

Pornography has increased and is readily available for public consumption at every turn. Rapes, Paedophilia, and all manner of unclean acts are elevated, today. "As a man thinketh, so is he". Proverb 23;7.

A man will come into bondage (addiction) to that which he gives himself to. If a man makes it a daily diet to take into his spirit, pornography and perversion, he will eventually act out those thoughts and images with real people. For the time being until he can take advantage of another, he will act them out in his mind and through masturbation. Man was not created for selfishness and this is a heart issue which can only be cured by Jesus Christ.

Man is a container, filled with either the Holy Spirit or unclean spirits. According to Jesus you only have one of two fathers. Father God or the Devil. There is not a third choice and everyone is a child of one of these.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Man exercises his will, playing in the demonic playground and then is surprised when he is taken captive. And you cannot fight the powers of darkness with your flesh. Your flesh got you in trouble (opened you up to demonic spirits), but you will need the Spirit of the Living God to get you out of it.

Axehead
 

Wormwood

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I think society is "dealing with" these crimes in a fairly reasonable way (at least in America) where such criminals are locked up based on the severity of their crimes and are put in a sexual predator database where they are regularly monitored and have various limitations as registered sex offenders. It has been shown that someone who has been the perpetrator of such a crime is almost certain to continue to victimize children if given the opportunity. We cant just pretend that the track record for such cases does not exist. We need to be more concerned with protecting children than sexual predators. The problem, as I see with this article, is that as such sexual offenders have begun to be seen as victims rather than perpetrators. This will likely lead to a redefinition of the issue such that the punishment and sentencing will become increasingly relaxed.

I think there is a real problem in our society where human beings are being viewed as little more than chemical machines. Thus, their behaviors are not so much the result of sinful choices as they are the result of bad wiring or primarily chemical imbalances. Thus, the person who acts wickedly is a victim of receiving a bad hand of cards from his or her evolutionary benefactor and so they should be treated rather than punished. Now, I am not opposed to correction and treatment for the mentally ill or even criminals. I just think that thinking only in terms of correction rather than both correction and punishment (or punishment only if the crime is severe enough), is leading our society toward a very harmful place.

Our rabid pursuit of human individual autonomy and personal sexual expression/gratification is starting to bleed into how we define corrupt and criminal behavior. People pretend that these things are being informed by science, when, in my estimation, these lines are being drawn by an underlying philosophy about the nature of human beings and our underlying purpose. Thus, the rights of autonomous human expression and sexual gratification are reforming our definitions of what constitutes good, evil and even criminal behaviors.
 

Axehead

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Wormwood said:
I think society is "dealing with" these crimes in a fairly reasonable way (at least in America) where such criminals are locked up based on the severity of their crimes and are put in a sexual predator database where they are regularly monitored and have various limitations as registered sex offenders. It has been shown that someone who has been the perpetrator of such a crime is almost certain to continue to victimize children if given the opportunity. We cant just pretend that the track record for such cases does not exist. We need to be more concerned with protecting children than sexual predators. The problem, as I see with this article, is that as such sexual offenders begun to be seen as victims rather than perpetrators. This will likely lead to a redefinition of the issue such that the punishment and sentencing will become increasingly relaxed.

I think there is a real problem in our society where human beings are being viewed as little more than chemical machines. Thus, their behaviors are not so much the result of sinful choices as they are the result of bad wiring or primarily chemical imbalances. Thus, the person who acts wickedly is a victim of receiving a bad hand of cards from his or her evolutionary benefactor and so they should be treated rather than punished. Now, I am not opposed to correction and treatment for the mentally ill or even criminals. I just think that thinking only in terms of correction rather than both correction and punishment (or punishment only if the crime is severe enough), is leading our society toward a very harmful place.

Our rabid pursuit of human individual autonomy and personal sexual expression/gratification is starting to bleed into how we define corrupt and criminal behavior. People pretend that these things are being informed by science, when, in my estimation, these lines are being drawn by an underlying philosophy about the nature of human beings and our underlying purpose. Thus, the rights of autonomous human expression and sexual gratification are reforming our definitions of what constitutes good, evil and even criminal behaviors.
The government is really not doing that great of a job: But, do agree with your other points.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-36k-criminals-freed-while-awaiting-deportation/

http://www.cis.org/vaughan/ice-detainees-released-are-criminals

https://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/illegal-immigrant-criminals-date-congress/2015/06/04/id/648832/

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/15/121-criminal-aliens-released-by-obama-administration-have-been-charged-with-murder-since-2010/
 

Barrd

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...following a Jewish carpenter...
Back in college, we had a "rape seminar"...

The professor explained that rape isn't really about sex. It is about power.
Now, if that is true, how much more would sexually abusing a helpless child be about power....

Down here in Alabama, we have a cure for pedophilia. It involves a tree stump, a nail, a rusty knife, a can of gasoline, and a match.
I understand it's only been used around here once....but it does sound as if it would be very effective...