As mentioned, Jesus defines eternal life to be relationship with God.I believe "eternal life" refers to spiritual life.
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As mentioned, Jesus defines eternal life to be relationship with God.I believe "eternal life" refers to spiritual life.
Having not yet transgressed, why would he need a savior?What I believe is that Adam was created with the need of a Savior, that need not realized or expressed until he transgressed God's command.
What verse are you referencing?As mentioned, Jesus defines eternal life to be relationship with God.
I take the concept of the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" literally (not reactionary).
Why would Christ be the Lamb slain prior to the transgression?Having not yet transgressed, why would he need a savior?
I believe Adam was created innocent, but we are born corrupt. Adam was created in fellowship with God, but we are born out of fellowship.I believe we were dead in our trespass and sins. And I believe this points to being spiritually dead. But I do not believe men are spiritually alive, spiritually due when we sin, and need to be made spiritually alive again. This includes Adam.
I do not mind cow tipping.Interesting passages to look at, the Lamb slain . . . When you really look closely, I don't think it actually teaches that.
The clause "from the foundation of the world" can grammatically go with "the Lamb slain", or, "whose name's remain written". In the parallel passage, later in Revelation, God says the same phrase, "from the foundation of the world", and "whose names remain written" but not "the lamb slain".
I know, I'm tipping a sacred cow for many. Even so.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
The simplest understanding taken straight from the Book is that there are some whose names remain written (written is perfect tense) in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and those whose names do not remain written will wonder, and worship the beast.
And this book of life is the book of life of the Lamb slain.
This is grammatically correct, and supported by the second passage.
Thoughts?
What verse are you referencing?
(I was referencing John 14:6 in concluding Christ is the Life).
I do not believe we are born having sinned, but corrupt in the sense of being corruptible flesh. Like Adam we will sin.I believe Adam was created innocent, but we are born corrupt. Adam was created in fellowship with God, but we are born out of fellowship.
And I believe we need to be brought back to fellowship which is our reconciliation.
I guess that's my question. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are asking.Why would Christ be the Lamb slain prior to the transgression?
I agree, that we are not born having sinned. But I believe the corruption that resides in our flesh causes us one and all to sin. But that Adam was not corrupted that way.I do not believe we are born having sinned, but corrupt in the sense of being corruptible flesh. Like Adam we will sin.
What do you think of my conclusions on these passages?I do not mind cow tipping.
I believe the issue is limiting God to a time-line.
I think we are saying the same thing.John 17
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 14
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Much love!
I agree it is a possibility but I think it refers to the Lamb (and by implication the book). I believe it shows us redemptive history as a whole.What do you think of my conclusions on these passages?
I've been suspecting for some time that we much of the time are saying the same thing in different ways.I think we are saying the same thing.
You say spiritual life is a relationship with God and I say it is being in Christ and Christ in us.
The next question I suppose would be defining the relationship.
I believe it is more than fellowship. Literally I believe this refers to being in Christ and Him in us (conformed to the image of Christ).
What you don't say is why Christ had to bear my sin and what it means that Christ became a curse for us. I know the answer to both these things, but I don't think you do.You are being inconstant.
I am saying Christ had to die because Christ had to bear my sin and become a curse for us.
Justification is a legal term (cf. Deuteronomy 25:1), and God is a Judge (Psalms 7:11).You are moving this into a "law court" type of mentality (Calvin was, after all, a lawyer so this makes sense).
What nonsense is this? Christ died for our sins and was raised for our justification, the first fruits from the dead. He paid the penalty that was due for our sins, and God accepted it when He raised Him from the dead. And as a result, I have eternal life right now John 10:27-28). Read 1 John 5:11-13; it is placed in the past and is effectual in the present. I have been raised with Christ (Colossians 3:1) and indeed, I am seated with Him and in Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5-6). This is part of the eschatological 'already but not yet.' These things have not yet happened in time, but they have happened in te mind of God and are so certain that He speaks of them as if they already are (Isaiah 46:10 etc.).It is contradictory to claim that Christ died instead of us dying because we will die.
Not at all! Christ suffered separation from God so that His people will never be separated from Him (Romans 8:38-39).It is contradictory to claim that Christ died instead of man being separated from God because we were separated from God.
But Christ was the eternal sinless Son of God, who alone could offer the one perfect, acceptable sacrifice for sin.It is contradictory to claim that Christ suffered instead of us because many men have suffered the same and worse.
See above. Believers have eternal life right now.It is contradictory to claim that Christ experienced the wages of sin instead of us because Scripture states we do experience these wages.
Christ did not experience spiritual death. He voluntarily 'gave up His Spirit' (John 19:30). Christ experienced separation from the felt presence of His Father between the 6th and 9th hours (Mark 15:33) so that believers shall never do so.It is contradictory to claim that Christ experienced a type of spiritual death instead of us because you hold Adam himself experienced this death and we are born into it.
This is complete nonsense from start to finish. The monkey is playing with the watch again.The ONLY thing that Penal Substitution Theory can logically claim is that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us with the punishment that is reserved for the lost at Judgment. This was, in fact, the original claim of the Theory when it was articulated (and defended) in the Reformation. To Penal Substitution Theory Jesus' actual death and blood are worthless. What matters is punishment being experienced instead of us and this punishment being that "second death". And even here the theory is subjective.
To be "one of us" Christ had to suffer under the same powers that enslaved mankind.
That goes to the heart of the issue. Christ had to suffer and die to redeem mankind from the power of sin and death that had held mankind captive.Hebrews 1
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
What are your thoughts on this bolded part?
Hi Steve,This is part of the eschatological 'already but not yet.' These things have not yet happened in time, but they have happened in te mind of God and are so certain that He speaks of them as if they already are (Isaiah 46:10 etc.).
How does Jesus' death destroy the devil? Take his power?That goes to the heart of the issue. Christ had to suffer and die to redeem mankind from the power of sin and death that had held mankind captive.