Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

[CharismaticLady]

I absolutely don't think that God was ever angry with His Son. He was angry at sin and at sinners, and the Lord Jesus willingly bore God wrath against, not Himself, but sin.

I think many have God all wrong.

I agree with what you have said here.

 

[farouk]

Yes, we are at opposite ends of interpretation. Our assurance is based on our keeping the commandments of Jesus, and being pleasing in His sight, not disobeying the commandments of Jesus and being unpleasing in His sight. 1 John 3:18-24

Also, we need to make our call and election sure:

2 Peter 1:
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That means if you do stumble and fall into sin, your call and election is NOT sure.

Good verses there. John's First Epistle speaks a lot about assurance. Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith'.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You have been programmed to believe a lie about God. God's wrath stems from His burning anger. (look up the word wrath) And the world will soon experience this. It is a fearful thing indeed. But Jesus didn't suffer God's wrath...but the anger and wrath of mankind...for being too perfect...too right...too true...and too authorative in the truth.

People have always hated the truth. Just look at these threads...people love the lie.

You are saying the same thing as @Steve Owen, the go off into apples and oranges. I agree with you both that God was not with Jesus. And I agree with Steve that it is sin God hates.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Outer darkness is not hell fire.

Right, it is BEFORE hell fire, where the unrighteous go after they die, but before the second coming resurrection of the dead. THEN comes the actual judgment and the lake of fire.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I've never heard of tim keller but the bible is rife with language of hell being real, the lake of fire being real and those that go there it is forever.

Rev 20:15
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NASB

The verse i cited before says hell was created for the devil and his angels. So that tells me its very real as the devil and his angels are very real.

You misunderstood John. Hell is far worse than a lake of fire, not that it is not real. I thought it was funny. @John Caldwell Or I should say clever, as there is nothing funny about hell.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No offense but but unless you can prove WE atone for our own sin your posts here are confusing. We can't pay our sin debt which is why Jesus was born sinless, lived His perfect life, died and was raised again. "It is finished" means something more than He simply died. Those that go to hell can never pay their debt either. Which is why they spend eternity there. Jesus paid my debt; Col 2:14 because i can't do it, no one can. If i could pay my own debt there would have been no need for Jesus to pay my ransom; Mk 10:45. It sounds like your confusing a couple of different ideas here.

I agree. @John Caldwell is confusing the issue, and I don't think he means that we atone for our own sins either. I think John just doesn't like the word "punished" but I don't think there is away around it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Outer darkness is eternal...and people actually live there...for ever. (unlike hell where people perish)

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Do you think hell fire and outer darkness are the same place?

 

[John Caldwell]

I agree. @John Caldwell is confusing the issue, and I don't think he means that we atone for our own sins either. I think John just doesn't like the word "punished" but I don't think there is away around it.

I actually do not mind the word "punished" at all. I just do not believe it accurately describes the basis of our redemption. It is not derived from Scripture but applied to Scripture based on what some believe was required.

I once heard a story about a wealthy farmer who sent his servants to collect the profits of the harvest. The farmhands beat and killed the servants (this was not the farmer punishing his servants at all). The farmer sent his own son to the farmhands. They beat his son and killed him (again, this was not the farmer punishing his son, and in fact it was not a punishment even from the wicked farmhands).

Perhaps that story influences my perspective. But I can tell you the confusion relates to what each of us believe was accomplished to effect our salvation (they do not completely line up).

Instead of being saved by God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us I think we may be saved via the righteousness of God manisfed apart from the law (not through it).

 

[CharismaticLady]

If Jesus, then He paid the debt you owe.

Can you clarify if you believe those sins are past sins from before we come to Jesus, or do you believe Jesus continues to forgive present and future sins as we commit them?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I actually do not mind the word "punished" at all. I just do not believe it accurately describes the basis of our redemption. It is not derived from Scripture but applied to Scripture based on what some believe was required.

I once heard a story about a wealthy farmer who sent his servants to collect the profits of the harvest. The farmhands beat and killed the servants (this was not the farmer punishing his servants at all). The farmer sent his own son to the farmhands. They beat his son and killed him (again, this was not the farmer punishing his son, and in fact it was not a punishment even from the wicked farmhands).

Perhaps that story influences my perspective. But I can tell you the confusion relates to what each of us believe was accomplished to effect our salvation (they do not completely line up).

Instead of being saved by God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us I think we may be saved via the righteousness of God manisfed apart from the law (not through it).

Sins of lawlessness required death as a punishment. Jesus died in place of us.

 

[John Caldwell]

Sins of lawlessness required death as a punishment. Jesus died in place of us.

I agree that Christ died as the representative of mankind (the second "Adam") suffering the consequences of sin on our behalf. But I see this as a physical death so I do not believe Christ died so that we would not experience physical death. He gives us life. But He saves us through death.

That's how I see it anyway (and why I reject Penal Substitution Theory).

 

[farouk]

Can you clarify if you believe those sins are past sins from before we come to Jesus, or do you believe Jesus continues to forgive present and future sins as we commit them?

First John chapter 1 links continuing to walk in the light as evidence of being in the continuing good of cleansing from sin, through faith in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

Right, it is BEFORE hell fire, where the unrighteous go after they die, but before the second coming resurrection of the dead. THEN comes the actual judgment and the lake of fire.

Actually no...outer darkness is eternal...a different destiny. You might have to expand your old way of thinking to grasp this. Read Jude.

 

[John Caldwell]

Actually no...outer darkness is eternal...a different destiny. You might have to expand your old way of thinking to grasp this. Read Jude.

I take it you are referencing Jude 1:7.

 

[Episkopos]

I take it you are referencing Jude 1:7.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually no...outer darkness is eternal...a different destiny. You might have to expand your old way of thinking to grasp this. Read Jude.

We think of the lake of fire as being like a blazing light of fire, but what if with these verses in Jude and in the gospels, it is black darkness. They say in prison, solitary confinement with no light can drive some men mad.

Just because we have unsaved inside our churches, doesn't make them any less unsaved and without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

We think of the lake of fire as being like a blazing light of fire, but what if with these verses in Jude and in the gospels, it is black darkness. They say in prison, solitary confinement with no light can drive some men mad.

Just because we have unsaved inside our churches, doesn't make them any less unsaved and without the Holy Spirit.

God's judgments are beyond our reasoning. This isn't about saved or unsaved...those are human labels. This is about fitting in with God's will or not. If we claim to be holy and saved then we will be judged against the perfection of Christ. But if we are humble and claim nothing for ourselves....then God will go easy on us. As we judge so we will be judged...it really has nothing to do with religious labels at all. It's about the heart.

 

[Enoch111]

Sins of lawlessness required death as a punishment. Jesus died in place of us.

Penal Substitution is not a theory. It is Gospel Truth. And we do not need to look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers (or any so-called scholars or theologians) to see if they had a correct understanding of Bible truth. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not. And they certainly did not write by Divine inspiration.

WHAT DOES PENAL SUBSTITUTION MEAN?
Theopedia provides us with a satisfactory summary of the meaning of penal substitution: “Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.”

The word “penal” is related to penalty, particularly crimes committed by criminals. But it is also applicable to sins committed by sinners. There is a penalty for every crime or infraction of the laws of the land. And there is also a divine penalty for every sin committed. We see divine penalties applied in the Flood of Noah’s day as well as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (among other cities and nations in the Bible).

The word “substitution” simply means that someone other than the criminal or the sinner has been punished for the crime or sin committed. It would be similar to having two brothers in a court of law where one of them has been convicted of being a murderer. The other brother would approach the judge and ask that the death penalty be applied to him, so that his guilty brother can go free. The penalty would not change, but the one who paid the penalty would have been substituted. And the demands of justice would have been met.

GOD IS THE ULTIMATE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE
God has many attributes and many offices. One of them is that God is the Divine Judge of all humanity. There are numerous Scriptures which proclaim that God is the Divine Judge, and that all His judgments are righteous.

And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is Judge Himself. Selah. (Ps 50:6) But God is the Judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another. (Ps 75:7) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the Righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8) Here Christ is the Judge, and indeed God the Father has handed over all judgment to Christ: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

THE PENALTY FOR SINS AND WICKEDNESS IS DIVINE WRATH
Throughout Scripture we see that Christ was indeed the perfect and only substitute for all mankind. “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor 15:3). Had there been no cross, every sinner (all humanity) would be judged as guilty of death. And that would include the first (or physical) death as well as the second (or spiritual and eternal) death, which is separation from God in the Lake of Fire, and which expresses the wrath of God against sin.

For those who do not understand (or believe) that it is wrath, we have these Scriptures: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them...But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. (Rom 1:18,32; 2:8,9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:9,10)

THE LAMB OF GOD TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE WRATH OF GOD
When Christians reflect upon the sufferings of Christ on the cross, they often focus on the physical pain and excruciating agony of that cross (the worst form of Roman punishment). But God would have us focus on the anguish within the soul of Christ while He bore the wrath of God within Himself. While the word “wrath” does not appear in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ, we must be clear that that is what was applied to Christ. The sufferings of Christ within His soul and spirit were indeed the experience of the wrath of God against sin -- the Second Death -- which is also seen as the *sword* of punishment which pierced His holy soul.

People who deny this are in fact mocking the finished work of Christ who cried "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

 

[CharismaticLady]

Penal Substitution is not a theory. It is Gospel Truth. And we do not need to look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers (or any so-called scholars or theologians) to see if they had a correct understanding of Bible truth. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not. And they certainly did not write by Divine inspiration.

WHAT DOES PENAL SUBSTITUTION MEAN?
Theopedia provides us with a satisfactory summary of the meaning of penal substitution: “Penal substitutionary atonement refers to the doctrine that Christ died on the cross as a substitute for sinners. God imputed the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bore the punishment that we deserve. This was a full payment for sins, which satisfied both the wrath and the righteousness of God, so that He could forgive sinners without compromising His own holy standard.”

The word “penal” is related to penalty, particularly crimes committed by criminals. But it is also applicable to sins committed by sinners. There is a penalty for every crime or infraction of the laws of the land. And there is also a divine penalty for every sin committed. We see divine penalties applied in the Flood of Noah’s day as well as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (among other cities and nations in the Bible).

The word “substitution” simply means that someone other than the criminal or the sinner has been punished for the crime or sin committed. It would be similar to having two brothers in a court of law where one of them has been convicted of being a murderer. The other brother would approach the judge and ask that the death penalty be applied to him, so that his guilty brother can go free. The penalty would not change, but the one who paid the penalty would have been substituted. And the demands of justice would have been met.

GOD IS THE ULTIMATE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE
God has many attributes and many offices. One of them is that God is the Divine Judge of all humanity. There are numerous Scriptures which proclaim that God is the Divine Judge, and that all His judgments are righteous.

And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is Judge Himself. Selah. (Ps 50:6) But God is the Judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another. (Ps 75:7) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the Righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8) Here Christ is the Judge, and indeed God the Father has handed over all judgment to Christ: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

THE PENALTY FOR SINS AND WICKEDNESS IS DIVINE WRATH
Throughout Scripture we see that Christ was indeed the perfect and only substitute for all mankind. “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor 15:3). Had there been no cross, every sinner (all humanity) would be judged as guilty of death. And that would include the first (or physical) death as well as the second (or spiritual and eternal) death, which is separation from God in the Lake of Fire, and which expresses the wrath of God against sin.

For those who do not understand (or believe) that it is wrath, we have these Scriptures: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them...But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. (Rom 1:18,32; 2:8,9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:9,10)

THE LAMB OF GOD TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE WRATH OF GOD
When Christians reflect upon the sufferings of Christ on the cross, they often focus on the physical pain and excruciating agony of that cross (the worst form of Roman punishment). But God would have us focus on the anguish within the soul of Christ while He bore the wrath of God within Himself. While the word “wrath” does not appear in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ, we must be clear that that is what was applied to Christ. The sufferings of Christ within His soul and spirit were indeed the experience of the wrath of God against sin -- the Second Death -- which is also seen as the *sword* of punishment which pierced His holy soul.

People who deny this are in fact mocking the finished work of Christ who cried "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me, or against me? It seems we believe the same on this. If not, what specifically is different?

 

[Enoch111]

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me, or against me? It seems we believe the same on this. If not, what specifically is different?

I am providing more depth to what you have said. So we do believe the same thing, which all Christians should believe. And all sins are lawlessness or violations of the Law.