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Featured Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by John Caldwell, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. Mark Deckard

    Mark Deckard New Member

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  2. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    According to your definition of PS, after we are a Christian and Jesus died for the past sins we committed, what happens to us and our sins if we continue to sin willfully sins of lawlessness according to Hebrews 10:26-31? And, of course, provide scriptural corroboration for what you believe.

    You can answer too:
    @Episkopos , @David Taylor , @John Caldwell , @Steve Owen , @Mark Deckard , @Nondenom40 and anyone else I forgot...

    Not being a denominationalist, I'm curious if anyone believes closely to what I have come to believe.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  3. Mark Deckard

    Mark Deckard New Member

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    Invoking heresy simply reveals how frustrated you are. It is a cheap veiled threat in which a person puts themselves in the judges seat. It is no wonder that those medieval theologians who invented PSA also suborned burning at the stake for heresy. The wrathful God obsession is a kind of infection that causes men to become like the God they believe they worship.
     
  4. Nondenom40

    Nondenom40 Active Member

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    The penalty of sin is gone, nailed to the cross. Sin results in a break in fellowship with God but not our eternal destination. We confess and move on. It's called sanctification.
     
    Steve Owen and David Taylor like this.
  5. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Hi Non,
    How do you explain Hebrews 10:26-31 (which I added in an edit to the original post you responded to) which claims they have already been sanctified.
     
  6. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Since none of those who hold Penal Substitution Theory are able to explain how they go from Scripture to the Theory I’ll explain how I did when I affirmed the Theory (a quick summary).

    Sin is an evil (a crime) committed against God. This crime deserves an eternal punishment because it is against an eternal God. God will not acquit the guilty. God is just. God punishes sin. Therefore God must punish sin or God will cease to be a “just God”.

    Redemption is such as God is both just and the justifier of sinners. God imputed our sins onto Jesus and punished our sins in Christ (punished Christ as if he were the worst of sinners but technically this was punishing our sin in him). The punishment Christ experienced was God’s wrath against sin that should by all rights have been ours (was ours).

    This is not a form of “child abuse” because Christ IS God. God is in effect taking this punishment upon Himself.

    God could not simply forgive sin because divine justice had to be satisfied. Therefore the Cross is not only Jesus dying for our sins but Him dying for our sins by experiencing God’s wrath instead of God punishing us.

    Our debt is paid because Christ took our punishment in our place.


    The problem with that view, of course, is it is not only unbiblical but it stands in stark contrast to how Scripture tells us God accomplished salvation. I did not realize this for years (years of preaching and teaching). But Penal Substitution Theory is a poor counterfeit for salvation as presented in Scripture.
     
  7. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    What does it mean that God is 'faithful and just? I asked you how God's justice is satisfied. You haven't answered. If God's justice doesn't need to be satisfied, why did the Lord Jesus have to die? Jews and Moslems say He didn't need to; the cross is a stumbling-block (Gk. skandalon) to them. Do you agree with them?
    I have answered this any number of times and laid it out in some depth here:The Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution I originally posted this at your request on another forum, and now I have posted it here and you have never interacted with it at either place. The fact is that you are scared to death of serious Bible study. You have also never answered my post #214.

    I am aware that you have asked me several questions on post #217. I will answer these as I have time, but only if you will undertake to set out your 'understanding' of the atonement in similar depth to the way I have set out mine. Are you aware BTW, that in your post #217 you have printed out one of your own posts as if it was from me?
    Don't be so silly. You have declared that Christ 'learned' by being smitten, afflicted, pierced and crushed. I wondered rhetorically what sort of Dotheboys Hall you must have attended where you learned by those methods. I have no interest where you were educated. And no, I won't tell you where I was educated, so you can stop asking. If someone else asks, I will tell them, but I've told you before.
     
  8. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    Where exactly have I done this? Where have I posted exactly how you called me names that you are ashamed to post on a public forum?
     
  9. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    False.
    More lies.
    EXACTLY. If God could just forgive, why did he not do that? What reason? @John Caldwell
    Yes, he just lies and say we never post our positions or any Scriptural basis.
    Exactly, I pointed this out as well and he ignored it.
     
  10. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    Just so that you know, it wasn't medieval theologians who discovered the Doctrine of Penal Substitution. PSA goes back to the ECFs and was re-discovered by the Reformers. I agree with you though that it's not helpful to talk about heresy on a discussion board.
     
  11. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    Hebrews 7:22. 'By so much more Jesus has become the surety of a better covenant.'
    Now go and find out what a surety is.
     
  12. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    Hey! @David Taylor. I just glanced at the NIV 1984 translation of Isaiah 53:5b. 'The punishment that brought us peace was upon him.'
    And the CSB. 'Punishment for our peace was on him.'
     
  13. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    I already told you that I believe those who are saved must die to sin and be recreated (what is often called "spiritual life") with hope in the resurrection (the flesh does die).

    Why do you believe human sin puts such an enormous obligation on God? Why do you believe that God had to "satisfy the demands of justice" in order to forgive?

    If you read Scripture perhaps you will stumble on the fact there is no condemnation in Christ.
     
  14. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    @Steve Owen,

    You made my education an issue to the point of wondering what kind of seminary I attended.

    You have never told me your education qualifications. In the interest of openness and honesty are you able to be as forthcoming as I have? Did you attend some kind of wicca college, maybe a hippie convent or something?
     
  15. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    Don't you remember? It was a Mormon seminary.
     
  16. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    I think we all can know @David Taylor is lost when it comes to understanding and defending his theory as he has already resulted to calling people liars. He lost any argument before he could even muster up a defence for his view.

    BTW, @Mark Deckard is right. Penal Substitution Theory is a reworking of medieval theology. It did not take on its present forum until the 16th century.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  17. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Active Member

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    So why did Jesus have to die?
    Because the Bible tells us so. The Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution
    There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Why? 1 John 3:5. 'And you know [or perhaps you don't] that He was manifested to take away our sin.' This He did when He bore our sin in His own body upon the tree.
     
  18. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    You never told me where you went to seminary. I did not realize you were (or had been Mormon) but that makes sense with a few of the things you have said. If I recall, LDS "seminary" is a youth training program. Are/ were you very active in that church?
     
  19. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious?

    As a Mormon why did you think Christ had to die?

    Penal Substitution Theory is not the reason Christ died. Until you understand that you cannot move to a biblical understanding of the Cross. You are missing the entire point.
     
  20. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    @Steve Owen,

    Have you ever considered that your Mormon education may be influencing how you understand the Reformed teachers you now follow? At the very least it seems to be confusing how you interpret Scripture.

    I appreciate that you examined your views and moved from a Mormon tradition to embrace what you saw as more correct. But this is not a smorgasbord - you can not be Mormon with a pinch of Reformed and a sprinkling of Baptist.

    What you seem to hold is an amalgamation of several competing ideas. This is probably why you cannot articulate an explanation for your view - you are like a reed blown by the wind.

    Many Reformed Baptists would consider your Mormon doctrines heresy. I suppose many Mormons would see your Reformed beliefs heresy.

    But your LDS background and education does explain some of what you have carried into Scripture here. Had you mentioned your Mormonism earlier I would have understood your presuppositions a bit (I have discussed some of this with LDS friends).

    What I think @Steve Owen may be pointing to is his (or his former) LDS view that the Atonement was not primarily the Cross but the Garden of Gethsemane and that is where He became our redeemer and truly suffered, the Cross being where He was lifted up. But his ideas still seemed mixed with Reformed views so I am not sure. He may just be someone in the transition between two competing theologies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
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