Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

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John Caldwell

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@Episkopos , @David Taylor , @John Caldwell , @Steve Owen

What did Jesus suffer that brought Him to obedience?

Hebrews 5:
6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
I believe you are at the passage that corresponds with the issue here.

Hebrews 5:1-10 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"; just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

I believe Christ had to suffer in terms of "chastening", of bearing our sorrows and griefs. He had to be made like us in every way, yet without sin. He had to be pierced through for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and experience death as the wages of sin NOT because He was a sinner but because He was made like us in every way (He was human). Therefore He can be a High Priest (OUR High Priest). He is the Firstborn. He is the Second Adam. I believe this is what Isaiah 53 is directing us to. He became a curse for us and by His stripes we are healed and escape the wrath to come.

What Christ suffered was abuse and murder Scripture speaks of as evil performed by wicked men but by the predetermined plan of God. These men could be forgiven because the evil they did was in ignorance. (see Peter's sermon in Acts).

But I do not believe God was punishing Jesus on the cross. Scripture teaches that Jesus is righteous and it is an abomination to God to condemn the righteous and that the righteous are objects of God's chastening but NOT His wrath.
 
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Nondenom40

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That's what evil men did to Jesus...not God. You have some confusion going on there...

God allowed the devil to play his hand...in His weakness He still defeated the devil. God outmaneuvered the devil to bring life to mankind...eternal life and this through the resurrection of the Lord.

Isa 53:4-10

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,And our sorrows He carried;Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,He was crushed for our iniquities;The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,Each of us has turned to his own way;But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He did not open His mouth;Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living, For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,Yet He was with a rich man in His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief;If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring,He will prolong His days,And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. NASB

You do believe Isa 53 is messianic right? God did in fact do these things in order that we might be saved. Again, its either Jesus in your place, or its you. There are no other options.
 

Enoch111

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You do believe Isa 53 is messianic right? God did in fact do these things in order that we might be saved. Again, its either Jesus in your place, or its you. There are no other options.
It is quite evident that the naysayers have no clue about what transpired at the cross. You can post Scriptures all day long, but they will remain wilfully blind.

As far as I'm concerned, denying Penal Substitution is a heresy, since it attacks the core of the Gospel -- "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES". And if anyone brings any other Gospel than what is revealed, Paul says let him be anathema (accursed).
 
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Episkopos

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But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

To fall on Himself.

But the Lord was pleased To crush Him,

God is not a masochist. God permitted these things to befall Him. Try to understand that the Lord and the Father are One....the Father did not do anything to the Son...the Son laid His own life down.

John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
 

John Caldwell

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Isa 53:4-10

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,And our sorrows He carried;Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,He was crushed for our iniquities;The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,Each of us has turned to his own way;But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He did not open His mouth;Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living, For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,Yet He was with a rich man in His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief;If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring,He will prolong His days,And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. NASB

You do believe Isa 53 is messianic right? God did in fact do these things in order that we might be saved. Again, its either Jesus in your place, or its you. There are no other options.
Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Those little pesky words (you know, a little more than just jots and tittles) kinda get in the way from claiming Christ was smitten of God.

Isaiah 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

No one has denied that it was by God's predetermined plan (God's will) that Christ suffered and died. This was even directly stated in Acts (Peter's sermon).
 

CharismaticLady

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He had to be pierced through for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and experience death as the wages of sin NOT because He was a sinner but because He was made like us in every way (He was human).

What suffering had He already done that made Him obedient to die on the cross.
 

John Caldwell

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It is quite evident that the naysayers have no clue about what transpired at the cross. You can post Scriptures all day long, but they will remain wilfully blind.

As far as I'm concerned, denying Penal Substitution is a heresy, since it attacks the core of the Gospel -- "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES". And if anyone brings any other Gospel than what is revealed, Paul says let him be anathema (accursed).
The problem is not differing views (both sides say the other side has no clue and remain willfully blind.

The problem is the side that believes God was not punishing Christ instead of punishing us have provided an explanation for their view (I provided an explanation for mine) while those who affirm the Theory just keep insisting their theory is correct without any explanation for their interpretation.
 

Episkopos

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I would like more explanation please. What in particular?

To respond with evil for good.....hatred for love. They hated Jesus for no reason. You do realize that Jesus was innocent of any crime yet they crucified Him.

John 15:18-27
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
 

John Caldwell

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What suffering had He already done that made Him obedient to die on the cross.
I do not believe the language means Jesus was moved from disobedience to obedience (or from imperfect to perfect). I believe this is talking about the office of the High Priest (of our redemption). Christ had to suffer all things, to identify with us in all ways, in order to our High Priest (He had to be one of us). The suffering includes ridicule, hardship, humbling Himself, even to the point of death on a cross. He became a curse for us.
 

reformed1689

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The problem is the side that believes God was not punishing Christ instead of punishing us have provided an explanation for their view (I provided an explanation for mine) while those who affirm the Theory just keep insisting their theory is correct without any explanation for their interpretation.
And the lies continue.
 

Mark Deckard

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If Jesus Himself (who is the God-Man) declared that He was forsaken by God the Father, what need for any further confirmation from anyone else?

After all He is the only one that experienced it and cried out is His agony "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" That was obviously a rhetorical question since He knew exactly why -- that He was made S-I-N for us when He was nailed to that cross. "Being made a curse for us" is the equivalent of being made SIN for us.

And Paul did allude to this indirectly: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Gal 3:13)

We know from other Scriptures that a part of the curse of the Law was the Second Death. And that is what He experienced in His soul for three dark hours. No man can comprehend that Christ suffered the agonies of Hell so that we might not face them.

So even though Christ is all the fulness of the deity in bodily form, God in heaven separated himself from God on earth thus dividing the Trinity? This same Paul said “God cannot deny himself”

Would it not do less violence to the immutability of God to simply say Jesus was in fact all the fullness of the Godhead descending into hell for the purpose of ransom and conquest? Who did Jesus Ransom us from? We were not slaves to God, we were slaves to sin. The purchase freed us from Satan, sin, death and hell. Satan was the master, sin was the chains, death was the wage and hell was where he had been consigned by the law and wanted to take us all.

But PSA would tell us that God was playing pretend with Jesus on the cross. He pretended Jesus sinned when he actually didn't. God pretended Jesus was worthy of death when he actually wasn't. Then when it was all over God stopped pretending and treated Jesus the way he really deserved. Or does it make more sense to say God let Satan kill Jesus in order to to reclaim the keys to hell and death. That puts God on our side while not forsaking His son. For if God forsake his Son then who can he not forsake. But as it is written, “never will I leave you never will I forsake you.” If God was pretending it was Satan and men that were out of the loop not Jesus.

Christ being made a curse for us cannot mean God ever ceased to love Jesus for one second. Nor did God leave Jesus.
“Behold, an hour is coming, and has alreadycome, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.” John 16:32
This was in direct reference to His hour of suffering. Why didnt Jesus say,”The hour is coming when even the father will leave me alone, but this is for your sake.”? No instead Jesus assert His oneness and fellowship with God even on the cross.
 

CharismaticLady

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To respond with evil for good.....hatred for love. They hated Jesus for no reason. You do realize that Jesus was innocent of any crime yet they crucified Him.

John 15:18-27
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Of course, however, why would he need to learn obedience, or come to a place of obedience? What was that about? What happened that made Jesus learn.
 

CharismaticLady

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I do not believe the language means Jesus was moved from disobedience to obedience (or from imperfect to perfect). I believe this is talking about the office of the High Priest (of our redemption). Christ had to suffer all things, to identify with us in all ways, in order to our High Priest (He had to be one of us). The suffering includes ridicule, hardship, humbling Himself, even to the point of death on a cross. He became a curse for us.

Nor do I believe He was disobedient, but what brought Him to a place of obedience in order to die on the cross. What pushed Him over the top?
 

Steve Owen

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I believe Christ had to suffer in terms of "chastening", of bearing our sorrows and griefs. He had to be made like us in every way, yet without sin. He had to be pierced through for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and experience death as the wages of sin NOT because He was a sinner but because He was made like us in every way (He was human). Therefore He can be a High Priest (OUR High Priest). He is the Firstborn. He is the Second Adam. I believe this is what Isaiah 53 is directing us to. He became a curse for us and by His stripes we are healed and escape the wrath to come.

What Christ suffered was abuse and murder Scripture speaks of as evil performed by wicked men but by the predetermined plan of God. These men could be forgiven because the evil they did was in ignorance. (see Peter's sermon in Acts).

But I do not believe God was punishing Jesus on the cross. Scripture teaches that Jesus is righteous and it is an abomination to God to condemn the righteous and that the righteous are objects of God's chastening but NOT His wrath.
How do you get from here to our sins being forgiven? How is the justice of God satisfied?
 

Episkopos

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Gregory of Nyssa: In order to secure that the ransom in our behalf might be easily accepted by him who required it, the Deity was hidden under the veil of our nature, that so, as with ravenous fish, the hook of the Deity might be gulped down along with the bait of flesh, and thus, life being introduced into the house of death, and light shining in darkness, that which is diametrically opposed to light and life might vanish; for it is not in the nature of darkness to remain when light is present, or of death to exist when life is active. (ib
 

Steve Owen

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We all agree God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, laid upon Him our iniquities (literally, our infirmity).
So you believe that everyone shall die for his own infirmity (Jeremiah 31:30)? Where do you find 'infirmity' within the semantic range of 'awon (5771)? My lexicons give 'iniquity,' guilt,' evil' and occasionally the 'punishment' that follows guilt (Genesis 4:13).
 

John Caldwell

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How do you get from here to our sins being forgiven? How is the justice of God satisfied?
I believe that in Christ we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace. If we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteous. If we humble ourselves and seek God, repent from our sins, God will forgive us because the one who confesses and renounces their sins will find mercy.

Why do you believe that God's justice has to be satisfied in order for God to forgive men (that there could be no other way for God to justly forgive, like perhaps an act of recreation?
 

John Caldwell

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So you believe that everyone shall die for his own infirmity (Jeremiah 31:30)? Where do you find 'infirmity' within the semantic range of 'awon (5771)? My lexicons give 'iniquity,' guilt,' evil' and occasionally the 'punishment' that follows guilt (Genesis 4:13).
I believe it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

I do not believe we should approach our lexicons as sort of a smorgasbord where as long as it is possible we can choose any definition we desire.

You inquired about my education (questioning, I take it, my qualification and background in discussing this topic). I was open and told you the universities I attended and the seminary (a conservative Baptist seminary). What seminary did you attend and what was its affiliation?
 

Mark Deckard

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Round and round it goes because the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Consider how many bad doctrines rest on the definition of a single solitary word divorced from historical context and married to medieval logic , translated from Greek to Latin to English from the cultural and intellectual minds that are as foreign to our minds as Greek is foreign to English.

There are two modes of truth in the bible: statements and stories. The stories help us to properly define the statements. Have you noticed how no one argues over the meaning of the story of Jonah, or the story of Goliath, but everybody argues over single words inside of abstract spiritual statements such as “chastisement” or “punishment”. What those words meant in the minds of the authors and the pictures they painted are the source of endless debate. The stories are not. Both of those stories (Jonah and Goliath) have definition for Christs work on the cross. He was the willing prophet who went into the belly of the earth because He (unlike Jonah) shared Gods love for a world under death penalty.
Jesus was our champion who defeated the giant and became the King after Gods own heart. Note David was the second King of Israel with a covenant of unfailing love. That is the New Covenant. Saul was the failed King who could not please God. That was the Old Covenant. Saul stood by helpless as Goliath paralyzed all with fear. David rushed at the Giant and took him down. Yet even though Davids championship and role as King had been established in truth. It was only years later he took the throne and Saul was deposed. This was the space in which the church (David) ran from the Jews (Saul)
persecution until the day in which Jerusalem was destroyed. In the mean time David collected loyal followers until he came into his Kingdom.
You have to look at the meta narratives to keep the doctrines from becoming man made. Look at the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. Tell me where the penal substitution is foreshadowed there? Even the passover lambs were not suffering under wrath, they were an offering of life. They displayed the meekness and willingness of an innocent man to die in the place of someone else. The death Angel that passed over was not Gods wrath, but simply the metaphor for the inevitability of death upon all men. Note that in every plague on Egypt, Israel was exempt by virtue of their lineage and location. But in the final judgement of death, neither the lineage or the land was enough...only the lamb could rescue anyone from death.
Zoom out and look at the pictures not just the words. The pictures define the words.
 
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