Pentecostal Beginnings

[Hidden In Him]

After ten years struggling in AOG churches, I inevitable came to the conclusion that while very friendly and obviously mission minded, the teachings were shallow and faith was predicated on signs and wonders...

I came out of AoG churches as well, and I think their primary problem was a progressive falsifying of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. When I first got baptized in the Holy Spirit back in 1986, there were strong moves of God and people manifesting genuine spiritual gifts in the churches I attended. But it dwindled out quickly. Eventually I was where this person appears to have gotten to (I found this in an online search just a minute ago, and it pretty much sums up the reasons why I left):

"I ended up attending AG churches... and just loved it. It felt like the kind of church that was much more in tune with God and a relational experience instead of just going through the actions. They welcomed the Holy Spirit. I loved it.

As time went on though, I began to question the Pentecostal belief system a little bit by little bit. More and more of what were calling miracles just started to seem fake. More and more the speaking in tongues seemed fake. It was the same people all the time and I could almost quote their syllables verbatim when they started jabbering. I was prophesied over several times and the hope of what was said never came to fruition.

What seemed to be happening in my mind was a church that was trying to keep alive a spirit of pentecost and all that goes with it. But the real proof would have been a real miracle where someone re-gained their sight or a deformed limb was restored. You NEVER saw this happen and to this day I've heard a couple stories of similar miracles but no actual proof."

I think the beginnings of modern Pentecostalism were accompanied by FASTING and PRAYER, which is what caused the power to manifest. And I believe it is the absence of prayer that has caused the real gifts to largely cease now.

 

[Enoch111]

Not that they weren't Christians, but we're somewhat limited in their focus and their priorities were skewed in favour of demonstration and emotion.

This is quite true, and as a result *experience* frequently trumps Scripture.

However, the signs and wonders of the Apostolic Age were called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul: “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Cor 12:12)

HEBREWS 2
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

God authenticated the astounding Gospel message with signs, wonders, and miracles. But the Apostolic Fathers (who came immediately after the apostles) did not report that they themselves were manifesting these gifts. Why? Because Paul said that we walk by faith and not by sight, and Christ said that blessed are those who have NOT SEEN and believed.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I came out of AoG churches as well, and I think their primary problem was a progressive falsifying of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. When I first got baptized in the Holy Spirit back in 1986, there were strong moves of God and people manifesting genuine spiritual gifts in the churches I attended. But it dwindled out quickly. Eventually I was where this person appears to have gotten to (I found this in an online search just a minute ago, and it pretty much sums up the reasons why I left):

"I ended up attending AG churches... and just loved it. It felt like the kind of church that was much more in tune with God and a relational experience instead of just going through the actions. They welcomed the Holy Spirit. I loved it.

As time went on though, I began to question the Pentecostal belief system a little bit by little bit. More and more of what were calling miracles just started to seem fake. More and more the speaking in tongues seemed fake. It was the same people all the time and I could almost quote their syllables verbatim when they started jabbering. I was prophesied over several times and the hope of what was said never came to fruition.

What seemed to be happening in my mind was a church that was trying to keep alive a spirit of pentecost and all that goes with it. But the real proof would have been a real miracle where someone re-gained their sight or a deformed limb was restored. You NEVER saw this happen and to this day I've heard a couple stories of similar miracles but no actual proof."

I think the beginnings of modern Pentecostalism were accompanied by FASTING and PRAYER, which is what caused the power to manifest. And I believe it is the absence of prayer that has caused the real gifts to largely cease now.

I attended AG as well and left....their main problem was promoting the manifestation of the gifts without mentoring anyone new in the gifts on how to know if it was of the Holy Spirit or of their flesh....they just let it become a free fall of believers claiming to have that gift.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But the Apostolic Fathers (who came immediately after the apostles) did not report that they themselves were manifesting these gifts.

That isn't actually true, Enoch. It wasn't until the 4th century that they were testifying the gifts were no longer in manifestation. I'd have to find the references for you, but they continued to maintain that the gifts were in operation through the 2nd and early 3rd centuries.

 

[Hidden In Him]

their main problem was promoting the manifestation of the gifts without mentoring anyone new in the gifts

That's absolutely the truth. I remember after I got baptized that I still had questions about what the scriptures taught about it, and over time I noticed that no one was ever teaching me anything about it. It was like they just assumed you would figure it out or something, LoL. I found that very strange.

 

[Willie T]

After ten years struggling in AOG churches, I inevitable came to the conclusion that while very friendly and obviously mission minded, the teachings were shallow and faith was predicated on signs and wonders... Not in the goodness and grace of a loving Father and Saviour. Not that they weren't Christians, but we're somewhat limited in their focus and their priorities were skewed in favour of demonstration and emotion.
Not altogether in agreement with the claim that Pentecostalism began as a 20th century phenomenon. As a modern movement and half pie denomination perhaps... But as a manifestation of spiritual gifts in the church, no.

No, you are quite correct. There are many instances of the gifts, including glossolalia, being manifested in various denominations prior to Topeka and then Los Angeles (Azusa Street)

 

[Enoch111]

That isn't actually true, Enoch.

I would suggest a reading of History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff. Here is a summation:

The gift of MIRACLES is the power possessed by the apostles and apostolic men, like Stephen, to heal all sorts of physical maladies, to cast out demons, to raise the dead, and perform other similar works, in virtue of an extraordinary energy or faith, by word, prayer, and the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus, and for his glory. These miracles were outward credentials and seals of the divine mission of the apostles in a time and among a people which required such sensible helps to faith. But as Christianity became established in the world, it could point to its continued moral effects as the best evidence of its truth, and the necessity for outward physical miracles ceased.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would suggest a reading of History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff. Here is a summation:

The gift of MIRACLES is the power possessed by the apostles and apostolic men, like Stephen, to heal all sorts of physical maladies, to cast out demons, to raise the dead, and perform other similar works, in virtue of an extraordinary energy or faith, by word, prayer, and the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus, and for his glory. These miracles were outward credentials and seals of the divine mission of the apostles in a time and among a people which required such sensible helps to faith. But as Christianity became established in the world, it could point to its continued moral effects as the best evidence of its truth, and the necessity for outward physical miracles ceased.

Well, I've never agreed with Cessationist writers. They seem to operate under the assumption that because supernatural gifts are lacking in their own lives that of necessity they could never manifest in anyone else's, which is kind of a presumption.

I'm gonna make this a short conversation since I don't want to go round and round with you, but I'd like your response on something: The prophecy in Joel 2:28, was it something that's already been fulfilled and is no longer to be interpreted in a futurist sense, or was it something that will still see its ultimate fulfillment in the end-times? If it is no longer future tense, how do you explain Joel 2:31?

 

[bbyrd009]

an eruption would fit, but imo there is also a spiritual interpretation that can be realized in the symbology of the sun and the moon there too

 

[Hidden In Him]

an eruption would fit, but imo there is also a spiritual interpretation that can be realized in the symbology of the sun and the moon there too

I appreciate the response, Byrd, but I know Enoch isn't the type to over-spiritualize. If he were, I likely wouldn't have responded. He probably interprets that verse literally, in which case I wanted to know where he places it in relation to the timing of Joel 2:28.

P.S. By "literally," I mean the sun would literally be darkened and the moon literally be turned red in appearance. You have to qualify your statements around here.

 

[farouk]

I appreciate the response, Byrd, but I know Enoch isn't the type to over-spiritualize. If he were, I likely wouldn't have responded. He probably interprets that verse literally, in which case I wanted to know where he places it in relation to the timing of Joel 2:28.

Maybe dispensationalism can help? if it's not about the church in the Old Testament, then it's likely to do with the future of Israel.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Maybe dispensationalism can help? if it's not about the church in the Old Testament, then it's likely to do with the future of Israel.

Joel 2:28 is primarily about the nation of Israel, as the preceding verse suggests.

 

[farouk]

Joel 2:28 is primarily about the nation of Israel, as the preceding verse suggests.

Indeed, so to use it for the church would not be accurate.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Indeed, so to use it for the church would not be accurate.

Not necessarily. Then you are getting heavy into a debate over the question of will the church be present along with Israel until the Lord's return. That's a lengthy discussion beyond the scope of what I was hoping to have to cover here.

 

[farouk]

Not necessarily. Then you are getting heavy into a debate over the question of will the church be present along with Israel until the Lord's return. That's a lengthy discussion beyond the scope of what I was hoping to have to cover here.

I guess I try to be a clear skies dispensationalist...

 

[Hidden In Him]

I guess I try to be a clear skies dispensationalist...

Clear skies? I think the question revolves more around the timing of the rapture than around Dispensationalism. But it never fails to get complicated when discussing end-times prophecy.

 

[bbyrd009]

'confused' might be a better word?

 

[Heart2Soul]

That's absolutely the truth. I remember after I got baptized that I still had questions about what the scriptures taught about it, and over time I noticed that no one was ever teaching me anything about it. It was like they just assumed you would figure it out or something, LoL. I found that very strange.

Yeah, I remember when I first got baptized and I was at the alter praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the pastor kept saying...."Just receive it!, Just receive it by faith, the Holy Spirit is all over you, just start praying in tongues and let Him manifest through you!"
I was 16 and we just didn't really have a lot of teaching about receiving "it" so I had no clue how to receive.....but thank goodness the Holy Spirit has a way of making His presence known.....my pastor was stressing me out with trying to figure out how to receive it!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yeah, I remember when I first got baptized and I was at the alter praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the pastor kept saying...."Just receive it!, Just receive it by faith, the Holy Spirit is all over you, just start praying in tongues and let Him manifest through you!"
I was 16 and we just didn't really have a lot of teaching about receiving "it" so I had no clue how to receive.....but thank goodness the Holy Spirit has a way of making His presence known.....my pastor was stressing me out with trying to figure out how to receive it!

LoL! That kinda happened to the guy who got baptized with me. He was absolutely paranoid, and got so up tight that he never let go of his mouth despite nearly shaking.

Well, at least they were still baptizing people back then. I'm not sure they even do that so much anymore. I rarely hear it preached on anymore either.

 

[Heart2Soul]

LoL! That kinda happened to the guy who got baptized with me. He was absolutely paranoid, and got so up tight that he never let go of his mouth despite nearly shaking.

The visual of this has me laughing...

Go to minute 2:12