Perpetual virginity of Mary!

[Renniks]

Uh huh.
Too bad neither of you can refute it . . .

It's stupid. What's to refute?
Read song of solomon, no, on second thought I don't want you to have a heart attack. Trust me, God does not hate unfettered love making in marriage

 

[Renniks]

Can you tell me when Mary and the other saints in Heaven were kicked OUT of the Body of Christ?

How long have you beat your wife?
See how that works?
Totally unrelated.
How about you show me where it says to ask dead people to pray for us?


Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

. Timothy 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings—a human, the Messiah Jesus.

 

[101G]

@BreadOfLife, Matthews 1:25 blowed all the cover off the lie of Mary's virginity.
if the bible would have said, he never knew her ok, but God placed that verse there for 101G and other who follow the word of God to reprove that perpetual virginity lie... Aint God Good.

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."... (smile)... before, before, before, they came together. BINGO, THEY CAME TOGETHER, ONLY .... "UNTIL" SHE HAD HER FIRST BORN SON...

if God wanted Mary to be a perpetual virgin. Matthews 1:18, and 1:25 would not be in the bible. understand, "before they came together". they was already married, in a espoused marriage. only when the marriage is consummated is it complete. so is God the author of SIN? no, of course not.

so they was not shacking up.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Me! A lawyer?! No, but I am working on the last part of my research for my Ph.D in education. My dad taught me that compassion for others will never fail me, but emotion misplaced is dangerous. There are things that get my blood to boiling such as abortion and child abuse (in all of its forms). But misrepresenting my Lord is far worse. But I can't help people to find Him if I'm behaving badly while I do it. Prayer, prayer, prayer.

@Spurgeon's Girl , sounds like you have a wise dad!

You and I have some things in common. Even though my college degree is not in education, I was a public school teacher. I retired when I had my kids and ended up home schooling them. (That's a long story.) I also worked on a master's degree with education as one of my areas, but my late husband and I moved out-of-state before I had a chance to finish it. I have regretted not getting a master's.

I believe that abortion is the worst form of child abuse--snuffing out the life of the innocent! My blood boils over this too. It seems that so many Christians are complacent about it. This grieves me and makes me mad. Sometimes, I have to hold my tongue. One verse that has helped me with this is James 1:20, which says, "The anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God."

Yes, and misrepresenting God--who He is, what He's done for us! Leading people away from Jesus has got to be the worst thing a person can do to others. Jesus Christ is our hope! He is our life! Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

 

[Mungo]

@BreadOfLife, Matthews 1:25 blowed all the cover off the lie of Mary's virginity.
if the bible would have said, he never knew her ok, but God placed that verse there for 101G and other who follow the word of God to reprove that perpetual virginity lie... Aint God Good.

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."... (smile)... before, before, before, they came together. BINGO, THEY CAME TOGETHER, ONLY .... "UNTIL" SHE HAD HER FIRST BORN SON...

if God wanted Mary to be a perpetual virgin. Matthews 1:18, and 1:25 would not be in the bible. understand, "before they came together". they was already married, in a espoused marriage. only when the marriage is consummated is it complete. so is God the author of SIN? no, of course not.

so they was not shacking up.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

See post #1627 in this thread - It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

It destroys your Mt 1:25 argument.

 

[Mungo]

@BreadOfLife

Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."... (smile)... before, before, before, they came together. BINGO, THEY CAME TOGETHER, ONLY .... "UNTIL" SHE HAD HER FIRST BORN SON...

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

"came together" is not a euphemism for sex. It is the second stage of marriage where the groom takes his wife into his house.

The Greek is Strong 4905 sunerchomai.
It is the same word used in many places for people gathering or coming together.
For example
But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities. (Lk 5:15) - or do you interpret that as a mass orgy?

"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language." (Acts 2:6) - another mass orgy 101G?

 

[101G]

"came together" is not a euphemism for sex.

oh yes it is.

are you married, if not .... DEARLY beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God, and in the face of this congregation, to join together this Man and this Woman in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man's innocency, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his brid the church....... LOL, LOL, LOL. oh well.

did I hit both question at the same time... YIKES! that hurt, did it not. got both of your coming to gether... (smile).

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Mungo]

oh yes it is.

are you married, if not .... DEARLY beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God, and in the face of this congregation, to join together this Man and this Woman in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man's innocency, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his brid the church....... LOL, LOL, LOL. oh well.

did I hit both question at the same time... YIKES! that hurt, did it not. got both of your coming to gether... (smile).

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

No it isn't a euphemism for having sex. It can be in our culture but not in Jewish culture.
We sometimes use "living together" as a euphemism for sex but it need not be.

In Jewish culture, unlike our own culture, marriage is in two stages.
The first is called kiddushin. The word "kiddushin" comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning "sanctified." It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other. (Judaism 101). At this point the two are legally married, hence in Mt 1:19 Joseph is descibed as her husband and decides to divorce Mary.

The second stage is called nusuin and this is when the husband brings the bride into his home. Today the two often take place one after the other but this in Jesus' time, and very often, during the interim period, the husband was busy preparing a home for her.

Something to ponder on.
The Church is described as the bride of Christ. In John 14 Jesus says to the gathered apostles, the Church, In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:2-3 ).
The Church and Jesus have completed kiddushin and are awaiting nusuin which will happen later. We are waiting The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” (John 22:17).

 

[101G]

No it isn't a euphemism for having sex. It can be in our culture but not in Jewish culture.
We sometimes use "living together" as a euphemism for sex but it need not be.

In Jewish culture, unlike our own culture, marriage is in two stages.
The first is called kiddushin. The word "kiddushin" comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning "sanctified." It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other. (Judaism 101). At this point the two are legally married, hence in Mt 1:19 Joseph is descibed as her husband and decides to divorce Mary.

The second stage is called nusuin and this is when the husband brings the bride into his home. Today the two often take place one after the other but this in Jesus' time, and very often, during the interim period, the husband was busy preparing a home for her.

Something to ponder on.
The Church is described as the bride of Christ. In John 14 Jesus says to the gathered apostles, the Church, In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (John 14:2-3 ).
The Church and Jesus have completed kiddushin and are awaiting nusuin which will happen later. We are waiting The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” (John 22:17).

first thanks for the reply, second you lied when you left out some of the definition of coming together, we will give the full definition.

"coming together"
G4905 συνέρχομαι sunerchomai (sïn-er'-cho-mai) v.
1. to convene, depart in company with, associate with.
2. (specially, maritally) cohabit.
[from G4862 and G2064]
KJV: accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort
Root(s): G4862, G2064

see definition #2. I'm using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments.
when giving definitions don't try to hid anything, give it all. see a lie will catch you all the time.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Mungo]

first thanks for the reply, second you lied when you left out some of the definition of coming together, we will give the full definition.

"coming together"
G4905 συνέρχομαι sunerchomai (sïn-er'-cho-mai) v.
1. to convene, depart in company with, associate with.
2. (specially, maritally) cohabit.
[from G4862 and G2064]
KJV: accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort
Root(s): G4862, G2064

see definition #2. I'm using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments.
when giving definitions don't try to hid anything, give it all. see a lie will catch you all the time.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I'm not hiding anything. Nor did I lie. I didn't give a formal definiton of Strong 4095.
You want to use definition 2 but give no biblical reason for choosing that.
You are assuming what you have yet to prove.

 

[101G]

I'm not hiding anything. Nor did I lie. I didn't give a formal definiton of Strong 4095.
You want to use definition 2 but give no biblical reason for choosing that.
You are assuming what you have yet to prove.

the reason is in Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

are you really reading the post?.
see you can whip a dead horse for so long before you realize that the horse is dead. so I leave you with the word of the Lord, Matthew 8:22.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Mungo]

the reason is in Matthew 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

are you really reading the post?.
see you can whip a dead horse for so long before you realize that the horse is dead. so I leave you with the word of the Lord, Matthew 8:22.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

A Concordance shows there are 30 other instances of Strong 4905 and none of them could possibly be taken to mean sexual intercourse unless you are into mass orgies.
As I said before you are assuming what you have yet to prove.

I'll leave you with Matthew 22:29

 

[101G]

A Concordance shows there are 30 other instances of Strong 4905 and none of them could possibly be taken to mean sexual intercourse unless you are into mass orgies.
As I said before you are assuming what you have yet to prove.

I'll leave you with Matthew 22:29

no need to asume anything, the scriptures are clear, Joseph and Mary had sex after the christ birth. the scriptures are clear.

good i'll leave you with Revelation 22:11... YIKES!.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BreadOfLife]

In my understanding the church didn't have leaders per say in the early days. They had teachers but no one leader.
Peter could not be the first pope, because:
Peter was married
According to the Catholic church the clergy should be celibate:

“Clerics are obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.” Catechism of the Cahtolic Church No. 277

And when Jesus was come into Peter’s house, he saw his wife’s mother laid, and sick of a fever.” Matt 8:14

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I (the apostle Paul) withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” Galatians 2:11-14

Sure doesn't sound like a pope to me.

Would Paul oppose the Pope?

Then you really DON'T know your Bible.
Allow me to educate you . . .
1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the ELDERS OF THE CHURCH; and let THEM pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ORDAIN ELDERS in.every city, as I had appointed thee:

Paul write about the respect that these LEADERS in the Church deserve:
1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

YOU are living in complete denial that the Early Church was "leaderless" . . .

Like I said, secret codes.... that's not how scripture works. You are looking for matching numbers, lol. I can play that game and make scripture say all kinds of silly stuff.
The Bible never says that Mary was the “Ark of the New Covenant.” If we’re going to follow this Catholic pattern, then who is now the “New Brazen Altar” or the “New Brazen Laver”? Or why is no one recognized as the “New Veil”? Who is the “New Table of Showbread”? These types are ALL fulfilled in Jesus, and not anyone else. They point to Him as their final fulfillment (Hebrews 9:1-11). Why would we think that one of those items (the most important one, no less) should be attributed to Mary? Was God saving the most important piece of furniture, the holiest one, to represent and honor HER above even her Son? Does anyone really think that this was God’s intent? If anyone is the “Ark of the New Covenant,” it is Jesus, Himself.

These aren't "secret codes". It's simple Type and Fulfillment.
Don't you understand how to read your Bible??

In his wisdom, St. Augustine said:
"The New Testament lies hidden in the Old Testament - and the Old is REVEALED in the New."
Doesn't look like YOU'VE learned that yet . . .

 

[Renniks]

1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the ELDERS OF THE CHURCH; and let THEM pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ORDAIN ELDERS in.every city, as I had appointed thee:

Paul write about the respect that these LEADERS in the Church deserve:
1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Hmm, nothing at all about one man being the leader of the entire church. Seems leadership was dependent on a person's gifts. Kinda like Protestant churches do today. No one "pope' who is claimed to be infallible and claimed to speak God's words.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hmm, nothing at all about one man being the leader of the entire church. Seems leadership was dependent on a person's gifts. Kinda like Protestant churches do today. No one "pope' who is claimed to be infallible and claimed to speak God's words.

I already presented that evidence.
However - if you missed it - here it is AGAIN . . .

If Peter WANS'T in Charge . . .
a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.

d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if he was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if he was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if he was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if he was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if he was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if he was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if he was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??

His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

 

[Renniks]

These aren't "secret codes". It's simple Type and Fulfillment.
Don't you understand how to read your Bible??

In his wisdom, St. Augustine said:
"The New Testament lies hidden in the Old Testament - and the Old is REVEALED in the New."
Doesn't look like YOU'VE learned that yet . . .

If Mary automatically inherits the title "Ark of the Covenant" for the reason that she once bore our Lord Jesus Christ in her womb, then would it not logically follow that all Christians can rightly be given the same title, since our bodies are also God's dwelling place (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20)?

Neither the Lord Jesus, nor any of his followers (including Peter) ever considered Mary in that exalted way. Furthermore, there is NO hint in scripture that the righteous ever exalted Mary in any way above any other disciple.

"As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” (Luke 11:27,28) Wow, Jesus sure missed a golden opportunity there to explain that his mother was to be exalted above all other women, huh? Guess he wasn't Catholic after all.


MARY IS NOT THE MOTHER OF GRACE
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. - JOHN 1:17



MARY IS NOT THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT
But he spake of the temple of his body. - JOHN 2:21

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. - HEBREWS 12:24

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. - MATTHEW 26:26-28

 

[BreadOfLife]

So if I say: "I do not know George." does it mean I never intend to meet George? No, it just means I currently don't know George. Your logic escapes me here...

That's an asinine comparison.
Unless you're talking about "knowing" George in the Biblical sense (sex) - your argument is pointless . . .

 

[Mungo]

no need to asume anything, the scriptures are clear, Joseph and Mary had sex after the christ birth. the scriptures are clear.

good i'll leave you with Revelation 22:11... YIKES!.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Your denial of what scripture actually says and does not say is clear, and scripture does not say Joseph and Mary had sex at any time.

 

[Renniks]

I already presented that evidence.
However - if you missed it - here it is AGAIN . . .

If Peter WANS'T in Charge . . .
a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.

d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if he was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if he was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if he was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if he was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if he was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if he was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if he was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??

His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

Scripture, taken in context, nowhere declares that he was in authority over the other apostles, or over the church (having primacy). See Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5. Nor is it ever taught in Scripture that the bishop of Rome, or any other bishop, was to have primacy over the church. Scripture does not even explicitly record Peter ever being in Rome. Rather there is only one reference in Scripture of Peter writing from “Babylon,” a name sometimes applied to Rome (1 Peter 5:13). Primarily upon this and the historical rise of the influence of the Bishop of Rome come the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching of the primacy of the bishop of Rome. However, Scripture shows that Peter’s authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20), and the “loosing and binding” authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).