Positional and Conditional Truths

[Netchaplain]

Let the joy “of the Lord” rise in you as often as possible via exercising your faith in His Expiation for “the old man’s” presence and works within you! Unless your present state is in a sadness from the bereavement of a passing loved one (and even in these trials as maturity progresses), or in a time of equal difficulty from another issue, saints can rejoice about their salvation. Many will not be able to respond very quickly, if at all, to this provision of encouragement from God because we are too used to basing our support on our “condition” rather than our “position.”

The condition of many believers in Christ is that they are attempting (often without awareness) to improve their “old man” and get it so submit to God, but this is a common mistake and not God’s plan (Rom 8:7). We must look at who we are (believers perpetually forgiven) more than what we are (possessors of a sin nature). Let’s not forget that the sin source yet “dwells within us” (Ro 7:17, 20), and that we are not in it (no longer considered “sinners” - Ro 8:9). God—through Christ—by Their Spirit using the Life of Christ (Col 3:4) has “circumcised” us from the sin nature (old man), “with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Col 2:11).

The “positional” truths are what contains our exhortation, and nowhere else. Understanding this will keep us from the growth-robbing oppositions (self, Satan and society), which, though delays spiritual growth can never effect any successful result concerning opposition to our salvation. When the permanence of faith and salvation are sufficiently understood, these truths become clear and apprehensive to appropriate them; and then we stand more than not—encouraged and growing, until our earthly time has transpired.

Our condition is that we are still effected by the sin nature (old man), and is why works effect not salvation, but the inverse; and our position shows us not to base acceptance with God (Eph 1:6) on this condition (old man restoration society) but in our position in Christ. Of course, God could have removed the sin nature at rebirth, but He is using it for the same purpose He uses it initially—to manifest His holy nature, and thus our need for Him.

When our position is rested in, our condition and its reasons are more understood and more correctly responded toward glorifying God, and there will be continuous growth in the Lord Jesus’ “image” (Rom 8:29; 2Co 3:18)—but not until then!

 

[Episkopos]

If you exchange your "positional" argument with "make believe" you will see that salvation is conditional. Also, your scheme denies the power of the cross to neutralize the old man through the power of grace. There is no position to rest in. That is to rest in a make-believe religious ideology that has no power over sin (no surprise there).

The true gospel has power over sin in the form of grace by the power of the cross of Christ. We don't experience the victory of the cross until we ourselves are crucified with Christ...not positionally, or dogmatically, but in Spirit and truth.

 

[marks]

When our position is rested in, our condition and its reasons are more understood and more correctly responded toward glorifying God, and there will be continuous growth in the Lord Jesus’ “image” (Rom 8:29; 2Co 3:18)—but not until then!

Resting in our position in Christ is the very thing that allows us to live in the freedom from fleshy life. Otherwise we are trying to "prove ourselves" to God, which will never be a work of Spirit.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is no position to rest in. That is to rest in a make-believe religious ideology that has no power over sin (no surprise there).

Resting in Christ IS our power over sin.

"Likewise, reckon yourselves also to be dead indeed to sin, and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Reckon yourself . . . this is the choice to trust in the efficacy of Jesus' death on the cross, that we share in. Dead indeed to sin . . . this is what we've become in Christ, actually dead to sin. Not a fiction, not a fantasy, dead indeed to sin. But you are instructed to reckon that so, because the fleshy human tendency is to not reckon it so, seeing instead remaining sins. But our walk is by believing, and not by seeing.

The position is "dead to sin", the act of faith is to "likewise reckon yourselves also", and the result of this choosing to trust,

"The one who has died is freed from sin."

Romans 6:12 KJV
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Because we are dead in Christ, having died to sin, we are free from it's power, and IF we will believe it, that Jesus Christ, in His death and resurrection has freed us from sin, well, be it to you according to your faith.

In the trust in Jesus, in knowing we are reconciled in Him, and not ourselves, walk in His Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. You just won't.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Resting in Christ IS our power over sin.

"Likewise, reckon yourselves also to be dead indeed to sin, and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Reckon yourself . . . this is the choice to trust in the efficacy of Jesus' death on the cross, that we share in. Dead indeed to sin . . . this is what we've become in Christ, actually dead to sin. Not a fiction, not a fantasy, dead indeed to sin. But you are instructed to reckon that so, because the fleshy human tendency is to not reckon it so, seeing instead remaining sins. But our walk is by believing, and not by seeing.

The position is "dead to sin", the act of faith is to "likewise reckon yourselves also", and the result of this choosing to trust,

"The one who has died is freed from sin."

Romans 6:12 KJV
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Because we are dead in Christ, having died to sin, we are free from it's power, and IF we will believe it, that Jesus Christ, in His death and resurrection has freed us from sin, well, be it to you according to your faith.

In the trust in Jesus, in knowing we are reconciled in Him, and not ourselves, walk in His Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. You just won't.

Much love!

To rest in a position is a psychological construct that may indeed have some merit...but it has nothing to do with Christ. A fat person can "visualize" themselves as a thin person...and psychologically that can have some effect on losing weight.

But to be dead to sin means we no longer sin...period. Walking in the Spirit is to walk exactly as Jesus walked. When we put on Christ we put on His perfection.

Of course the Bible can be read at a human level where effort is required to do what people then say is grace and against effort.

 

[marks]

To rest in a position is a psychological construct that may indeed have some merit...but it has nothing to do with Christ. A fat person can "visualize" themselves as a thin person...and psychologically that can have some effect on losing weight.

Visualizations for the sake of some psychological advantage has of course nothing to do with learning to live according to new realities.

Denigrating the "putting on the new man" as though this were some sort of pop psychology will only remove you from it's benefit, as we will not live according to God's design if we do not believe it is real.

Again,

Resting in Christ IS our power over sin.

"Likewise, reckon yourselves also to be dead indeed to sin, and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rest in Christ, not a visualization. Trust in Christ, that He has indeed freed you from sin, those who have trusted in Him. Have you? Do you not believe you are freed from sin?

Reading the Bible from a human level, as you say, means you will not receive the truth that God has written there, and will not live accordingly. That truth is this. If you've been baptized into Jesus Christ, you've been baptized into His death, and now, in Him, you have died, sharing His death, and this is your death now too. And in this death you've been freed from sin, literally "justified away from" sin.

And now you are told to count this true as actually true. Do you? Do you count it true?

If not . . . what is your power over sin?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Visualizations for the sake of some psychological advantage has of course nothing to do with learning to live according to new realities.

Denigrating the "putting on the new man" as though this were some sort of pop psychology will only remove you from it's benefit, as we will not live according to God's design if we do not believe it is real.

Again,



Rest in Christ, not a visualization. Trust in Christ, that He has indeed freed you from sin, those who have trusted in Him. Have you? Do you not believe you are freed from sin?

Reading the Bible from a human level, as you say, means you will not receive the truth that God has written there, and will not live accordingly. That truth is this. If you've been baptized into Jesus Christ, you've been baptized into His death, and now, in Him, you have died, sharing His death, and this is your death now too. And in this death you've been freed from sin, literally "justified away from" sin.

And now you are told to count this true as actually true. Do you? Do you count it true?

If not . . . what is your power over sin?

Much love!

God's grace gives us the power over sin.

I'll make a little analogy to show what I mean.

Imagine you have driven a motorcycle all your life. Then someone gives you a car. Now you drive the car and never get back on the bike. Because you now have a car you can reckon yourself dead as a biker. But you have the car to replace the bike.

What psychology does is based on human potential not heavenly grace. Using my analogy, a positional ideology makes you give up the motorcycle in thought but you still ride it...only maybe less. You THINK you are no longer a biker...but you are still riding the motorcycle.

Mind games aside, you can't reckon yourself to be dead if you are not dead. Once you have another alternative (by grace) you don't have to go back to the old way. Once you have a car to get around in, you don't need the motorcycle.

Does reckoning yourself to be dead to sin make you stop sinning?

Of course not.

You might sin less...but if you become deceived then you are still worse off than before. Grace is REAL power that transports us into a heavenly realm to walk as Jesus walked. From THERE you reckon yourself to be dead to sin. That's how you REMAIN in His perfect walk. Reckoning yourself to be dead to sin when you are still walking in your own power is pure fantasy.

Positional theology (actually, ideology)? A make believe religiosity.

The grace of God? The power to walk without sin exactly like Jesus.

 

[marks]

Mind games aside, you can't reckon yourself to be dead if you are not dead. Once you have another alternative (by grace) you don't have to go back to the old way. Once you have a car to get around in, you don't need the motorcycle.

Does reckoning yourself to be dead to sin make you stop sinning?

Of course not.

You need to reconcile your ideas to the Bible.

Romans 6:3-12 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Do you consider yourself baptized into Christ? Do you reckon yourself dead to sin?

Reckoning that when you are still walking in your own power is pure fantasy.

I think this is where you go wrong. We don't walk in our own power, and being obedient to God's instruction to reckon ourselves dead to sin is not walking in our own power, and it's not a pure fantasy if it is what God declares true.

You seem to have a strong view that you should not "reckon yourself dead to sin" if you continue to see sin in your life, and that has an appearance of truth, but denies the reality of a new creation, and it denies that you continue to live in corrupt flesh, and denies that we are being transformed "by the renewing of our minds".

This isn't about psychology, it's the power of the Holy Spirit in a new creation.

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

We have been justified by faith faith in Jesus, and also by faith in Jesus we have access into this grace in which we stand. We are justified by faith, we stand in faith, faith in what? Faith in Jesus, that what He did for us in reconciling us to God is enough, and reconciled to God we are, not in ourselves, what we do or don't do, but in Jesus Christ, and what He did.

Our reconciliation to God does not change, because Jesus does not change. And in our reconciliation to God, we receive all spiritual blessings in Christ.

Does reckoning yourself dead to sin make you stop sinning?

Not reckoning yourself dead to sin is the belief that you remain under it's power. Reckoning yourself dead to sin is the belief that you are not. This is the obedience of trust in the efficacy of Jesus' death in freeing us from sin.

When you reckon you are free from sin and alive unto God, this is your obedience of trust that that leads you to walk in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

Faith in the truth of God's Word is in fact our victory over sin.

Romans 6:11-12 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

This shows the cause and effect relationship. You reckon yourself dead to sin, and alive to God, therefore, don't let sin rule. It has no power. Only lies.

Romans 6:13 KJV
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

God, on the other hand, does not lie, but rejoices in truth, and intents us to walk in truth, alive from the dead, now to live a new life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Grace is REAL power that transports us into a heavenly realm to walk as Jesus walked.

Grace is God's favor in forgiving our sins, and giving us new life in His Spirit, that allows us to live according to His pleasure for us, as we trust in Him.

The real power is Jesus living in me.

Christ in you, the hope of glory!

Much love!

 

[Netchaplain]

If you exchange your "positional" argument with "make believe" you will see that salvation is conditional. Also, your scheme denies the power of the cross to neutralize the old man through the power of grace. There is no position to rest in. That is to rest in a make-believe religious ideology that has no power over sin (no surprise there).

The true gospel has power over sin in the form of grace by the power of the cross of Christ. We don't experience the victory of the cross until we ourselves are crucified with Christ...not positionally, or dogmatically, but in Spirit and truth.

Hi, and I can see why you interpret it that way, but the sense of "position" is in the same sense as physical reality, e.g. Jesus's new body (Luk 24:39); same "spiritual body" we will have (1Co 15:44).

The use of the word Position is to manifest our eternal place in the Lord Jesus, because it is given at rebirth and cannot be earned (unless you mean something else other than what we're discussing).

 

[Netchaplain]

Resting in our position in Christ is the very thing that allows us to live in the freedom from fleshy life. Otherwise we are trying to "prove ourselves" to God, which will never be a work of Spirit.

Much love!

True, many still have yet to understand that nothing we do of ourselves effects acceptance, even though God loves us as He found us, but did not leave us in that condition (sinning but unforgiven).

Always appreciate your posts Brother!

Closeness in the Spirit!

 

[Fuddy]

You know, I read through these boards and see so many people, apparently sincerely dedicated to discerning the truth in any given matter centering around the gospel of Jesus, and I gotta admit it's rather discouraging to discover so little agreement among us.

If someone is diligently seeking truth from God on something, why aren't at least most people coming to the same conclusions? Jesus promised that his spirit, the spirit of truth, would teach us all things.

So why all the discrepant perceptions of what's actually true?

It really gets frustrating.

 

[Netchaplain]

You know, I read through these boards and see so many people, apparently sincerely dedicated to discerning the truth in any given matter centering around the gospel of Jesus, and I gotta admit it's rather discouraging to discover so little agreement among us.

If someone is diligently seeking truth from God on something, why aren't at least most people coming to the same conclusions? Jesus promised that his spirit, the spirit of truth, would teach us all things.

So why all the discrepant perceptions of what's actually true?

It really gets frustrating.

Hi, and I find your comments quite instructional! In my opinion, contemporary Christendom (within the last century) has been exposed to so many false doctrines that the Word of Truth has been often misunderstood by those who have yet to read sufficiently repetitious enough of the Word (esp. the NT) to be familiar with it enough to identify errant teachings. It's also my belief that the majority of the Body of Christ will be at a minimal maturity in Him at His coming. It's always about regularly reading the Word (esp. the NT) enough to be able to identify scriptural truth for spiritual growth in the believer.

 

[stephen64]

Grace is a hard thing to understand, too hard for the intellectual mind of man, only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light. A gospel message that states sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ(rom6:14) is incomprehensible without the Holy Spirit leading us into, and convicting us of that truth

 

[stephen64]

You know, I read through these boards and see so many people, apparently sincerely dedicated to discerning the truth in any given matter centering around the gospel of Jesus, and I gotta admit it's rather discouraging to discover so little agreement among us.

If someone is diligently seeking truth from God on something, why aren't at least most people coming to the same conclusions? Jesus promised that his spirit, the spirit of truth, would teach us all things.

So why all the discrepant perceptions of what's actually true?

It really gets frustrating.

Who leads believers to become as one, one in thought, and mind, and of one heart? The Holy Spirit.
The academic mind of man? Now that's completely different

 

[Netchaplain]

Grace is a hard thing to understand, too hard for the intellectual mind of man, only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light. A gospel message that states sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ(rom6:14) is incomprehensible without the Holy Spirit leading us into, and convicting us of that truth

Hi! Thanks and like your comments! Yes, many things of God are "past finding out" (Rom 11:33), but thankfully He shows us enough in this life to suffice us to remain encouraged and strengthened in His Son.