Sister, to be honest that sounds like someone reasoning to try and make that scripture agree with their doctrine. I think martyrdom is part of the price Paul paid to follow Jesus and thus receive a crown, not the crown (reward or goal) itself.
Uncovering the Devil's Strategy
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I will quote the verses:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: (in that - my insert) but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Martyrdom - my insert)
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
In verse 15 refers to those who are perfect to agree.
So sis are you saying that Paul had not reached the 'higher life' when he was teaching?
The context is blessed is the man to whom iniquity is not imputed. That means we need to stay away from iniquity...or we will be found out. We are told to depart from iniquity. Those who do not...like most modern believers...will be found out. It's like saying...happy is the one who is not caught red handed.
What it doesn't mean is that certain people get away with more sins. There goes the narcisistic notion of the gospel from the reformation.
Not at all. Abraham and Phinehas were imputed with righteousness the first by faith and the second by works by what THEY DID (not Jesus).
Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Ez, 14:14
Thee is NO WAY you can agree with about half the verses in the bible...because you have not understood the basics.
You have no understanding of the ways of God. The gospel is far too great for you to grasp.
"Attain to the resurrection of the dead....." I read that as meaning to be counted worthy of the resurrection at the end of one's race, however or whenever that happens for any soul. And Paul did say he wasn't already perfect......and I take that as meaning because he hadn't yet finished his race....there is a perfection we can attain and walk in, in this life, and a perfection that can't be received until corruption puts on incorruption, after physical death.
Pressing towards the mark for the prize of the high calling of God can't be talking about a physical martyrdom for all believers. The "mark" is simply the end of the race, the finish line, when we each finish our lives here, however that occurs.
What is the mind that "as many as be perfect" should have? That is the mind that Paul was showing and demonstrating.....a mindset that doesn't consider one has "arrived" or yet attained, but keeps pressing on for what lies ahead for as long as we are alive on earth and running the race. He is exhorting "as many as be perfect" to remain humble and not to sit on their laurels but keep on reaching for what yet lies ahead in their race, and ultimately the prize. As you said, you never stop growing and learning, and I would add never stop following/obeying the Lord's leading too.
(Again if any happen to be called to martyrdom I don't see how that would be the prize/reward, but would be the cost to them of being faithful and following on that makes one counted worthy of receiving the prize/reward. Jesus said to count the cost of following Him. Not all believers are called to martyrdom physically. There are many ways to pay the price to follow Jesus, which can be as unique as we and our individual life circumstances are. We each are to run the race that is marked out for us individually.)
Circles. Phinehas had boldness and zeal to do what he did by faith, Epi. (of course that doesn't mean Christians should go around running people through with carnal weapons, it's just an allegory for us.)
Of course depart from iniquity, I would never think or say otherwise. We must not abuse this grace we have been given by using it as a license to sin, but stay the course and run the race in sincerity, in good faith. Always reaching for what lies ahead until the end.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus said "You MUST be born again"..........
This is the only Eternal PROOF a person a person is become a Chrisitan.
And this has nothing to do with water baptism.
Behold
Well-Known Member
,
The sinner has been accepted by God,......not based on our behavior........as the sinner is accepted by God, based on their FAITH in Christ....>>"while we were yet sinners".. we have trusted "in Him who JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY".....
So, once we God our faith in Christ.......and our """Faith is counted by God as (Christ's) imputed righteosness unto us""".....then God gives us the new birth., and we become a "new creation in Christ"... a CHRISTian.
This means a sinner is converted into a Son-Daughter of God, instantly.......having just become born again, and 3 seconds earlier they were a sinner, unforgiven.
Se, we see that the sinner has no done anything, except come to Jesus as a Sinner. and God SAVED THEM forever based on God accepting their FAIITH In Christ'.
"" We are become the Children of God by Faith in Christ".
God's Salvation is "The Gift of Savlation" FREELY given to a BELIEVER who is a sinner.
Jesus completed our Salvation on the Cross 2000 yrs ago.......and we receive it, = fully completed.
And after this converserion.....this "new birth" of our spirit........we are now a CHRISTian....forgiven all sin.....and from this point......
= WE begin our ">. "Present your body as a living sacrifice to God, which is your reasonable SERVICE".
"Service"..........we begin to Serve God, .....not to try to be saved or to try to stay saved, but because we have recevied God's Salvation, that is His permanent "Gift of Salvation".
Are you arguing against seeking to apprehend that for which Christ has apprehended us? Paul was wrong? lol. Not supposed to run the race so as to win it after all? Just ignore all those instructions and exhortations (and warnings)? The Spirit of God (cloud by day, fire by night) keeps us moving on brother, for those who are willing to follow.....as I see the scriptures we are supposed to keep going all the way to actually possess what has been promised and imputed by faith. Take pains and count the cost to grow the seed that was planted in us.
I would say most of us are only offering to God bits and pieces of ourselves and our lives up to now, serving him the way WE want to, and not yet truly laying our whole life on the altar, in a lock-stock- and-barrel kind of way, as a WHOLE burnt offering in complete surrender and consecration.
Behold
Well-Known Member
If we "seek" then we are doing it.
So, that is not Salvation....that is "present your body as a living Sacrifice". = So, this is Discipleship.........not Salvation........as anything we do, or try, or SEEK, or press toward.....is US doing it........and Salvaiton is : Jesus has done it for us on The Cross, 2000 yrs ago....that we receive from God as "The Gift of Salvation".
You have to be careful when listening to Episkapos, as He is trying to earn something that God has freely Given.
He does not believe that Jesus forgives your sin, on The Cross... and He does not believe that God gives the believer "the Gift of Righteousness".....so, that is some intense Heresy He's going to lead you into....... and will try.
He will train you to try to EARN spirituality, and This can't be earned, it has to be REVEALED to you.
Its similar to "walking in the Spirit"....... as you dont do this with your feet....Reader.
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Paul was not talking about being entirely sanctified here as he already was (Romans 7-8). He is speaking of the perfection of his purpose.
Thing is, Lizbeth, you are seeing it this way, and the early church was seeing it another. A lot was written by them on martyrdom as so many went that way. They considered it the high calling and were very keen to be martyred, each of them . They would not have thanked someone who prevented it for them. And no they were not determinists.
Lizbeth I am finding t hard to follow your theology as I find it a mixture of Calvinism influence (Spirit baptism at conversion), a bit of holiness doctrine, Pentecostalism with power being the reason for the 'second blessing' and I suspect some Dispensationalism . All mixed up. You can't do that as it leaves too many contradictions even saying that Paul still had not achieved ES. He wrote to the Romans to show them the pathway to holiness.
One knows when one has reached ES as much as one knows when one has been converted as the Spirit bears witness, but of course we cannot sit on our laurels as we can fall from that, and need to continue to understand scripture better and better and God more and more..
True words indeed. Most evangelicals have their own private interpretations based on preferences and carnal understanding. Too many vague ideas...too much imagination and figurative ideology. Too much name and claim. Too much narcissism and selective reading. Not enough honesty and reading skills. No actual visitation or empowerment from God.
No, sorry about the misunderstanding….I’m not saying Paul wasn’t perfected (in the sense that one can be perfected in this life) but there are two kinds of perfections in scripture….one is a perfection that can be attained and walked in in this life and the other sense is the perfection that is only attained after death, the redemption of our bodies. Paul referenced both kinds in the Phil 3 passage. I believe he was being an example and exhorting those had attained to one kind of perfection (walking in the spirit) to humbly not consider they had 'arrived" yet but remember their race wasn't over yet and to keep running it to the end.
I just read that Phil 3 passage as written, with the help of the Holy Spirit and without reference to any other writings except other scriptures. Our high, holy, heavenly calling is the inheritance we will ultimately receive…eternal life, the redemption and glorification of our bodies and to be “like the angels”. And the scripture says who hopes for what he already has, so this calling is not fulfilled (perfected in that sense) until after death. (At the end of the Phil 3 chapter he even refers to that bodily redemption...the changing of our vile bodies.)
Rom 8:23-25
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
That is the calling Paul was talking about in Philippians 3, the high calling all believers are called to no matter how we die, not just those who will be martyred for the faith. He was just admonishing or instructing those who had attained to the kind of perfection/maturity one can reach in this life, not to consider they had attained to the resurrection and prize until the end of their race (death, no matter how it comes), but to keep running the race and reaching for what lies ahead. Because there is another perfection that is only reached once one has died…the redemption of our bodies and eternal life….that is the high calling. Paul did not consider he had attained to the resurrection simply because he wasn’t about to die yet, his race wasn’t yet finished. There is no reason there to assume he was referring only to martyrdom. He was exhorting others who were perfect according to what can be attained in this life, to remain humble and to keep running the race, to be like him (to be of the same mind as him) not to consider or count that they had yet “arrived” or attained to the resurrection, which is the ultimate perfection only attained after death….redemption of our bodies. I think his exhortation agrees with “Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall.” It ain’t over til its over...and pride goeth before a fall.
I don’t see any reason or need to think the Phil 3 high calling is talking about anything other than what these scriptures below are all talking about in terms of our calling, and there is only one calling for all of us. There is no contradiction there with the idea of the kind of perfectness that we are called to in this life.
Eph 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 4:1-4
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
1 Cor 1:26-27
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
2Ti 1:8-9
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Heb 3:1-3
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
2Pe 1:9-10
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Many thanks for such a thorough reply and for all the work you have put in.
I am very interested in studying this passage as it is one of the ones used against holiness doctrine and I have been looking at what Augustine said about it in his rebutal against Pelagius. Pelagius, much maligned and falsely accused of refusing the need of grace was a holiness teacher whereas Augustine went against much of the early church teachings and is even considered a heretic by some Orthodox. Augustine is saying the same as others who reject the possibility of being without sin in this life.
Is that still what you believe? And do you just mean intentional sin? What is the pure heart and when is given?
Scripture tells us that:
1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
So we are called to be saints, simply that. There are many verses that speak of our calling and that is the call of God that man is entirely sanctified, the qualification of sainthood. The call is for all men not a few as it says that Christ is the light that illumines every man that comes into the world.
Paul however talks about a high calling and that term is not used anywhere else. All men are called but there is a service man can give in which he is crowned and that is martyrdom which I have said is spoken so much about in early writings. It is one step further that a man can choose when faced with the threat of it.
This is the prize that Paul desires, as he knows he will face death by murder.
I will stop there and ask you to be precise over what ES is. You say that there is one perfection for this life and one for the next and yes we will have a new body, but as far as purity is concerned, there will be no difference as far as I understand, what the HS has sown me and what was taught before so much corruption came into the church.
I don't believe the Phil 3 passage or any rightly divided passage of scripture can be used as an argument against the "perfection" that we are called to walk in in this life.....God's word says to be perfect as He is perfect and holy as He is holy....and we are told to walk as Christ walked, and to be as He was in the world. Those words are indisputable to me....just that different people might have a different idea as to what that means in the details.
And to try and be more precise, I was just pointing out that when scripture uses the word "perfect" it is sometimes referring to the redemption of our bodies and other times referring to the "perfection" that is to be had in this life. The former is not attained until after the death of our bodies, whereas the latter sense necessitates a dying to our old man. When Paul said he did not consider himself to be perfect I believe he was referring to the former, (although I would like to qualify that sometime, but too hard to explain right now) and when he addressed "as many as be perfect" he was referring to the latter.
Honestly I am not sure what being entirely sanctified means in all the details. I still don't know that I've got to the bottom of everything to do with this subject. Is it to be literally sinless or is it just to have our sin and old man nature put under our feet....I lean to the latter idea but need to mull it over some more.....because it does seem we are being purified/purged and don't retain, as time goes on, all the sins we started out with....so maybe the potential is there to be sinless, potentially.
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For what it's worth, the bible has a funny way of being translated at times. I don't believe the translators were prophets....they didn't know what the gospel is about. But as to the text....Paul was not PRESENTLY in the Spirit when he wrote the epistle to the Phillipians. Paul was NOT speaking about dead people when he said "as many as be perfect". That would only be unbelievers who would need to downgrade the truth to that extent.
No. Paul was not walking in perfection at that particular time although he certainly knew the walk. Actual real disciples go in and out of the Spirit in their training. This is necessary so that the CHARACTER of Christ can be grown into ...and not just the perfection of holiness in purity.
This is the hardest thing for carnal believers to understand...the purpose of being cleansed by the blood of Christ is not just to be cleansed, but to serve as a platform and standard that the character of Christ can be moulded into.
Understatement.
Maybe the gospel is real????? You wrestle with your faith awhile longer. But your own journey and surmisings should not make you adopt wanky doctrines. You are still new at this....so you should write with more honesty and modesty.
I agree. You don't seem to be understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm saying there were two different "perfections" being alluded to in the Phil. 3 passage, from my understanding. The first is where Paul said he wasn't already perfect and is the kind of perfection that doesn't happen until the redemption of the body after physical death, and the second, where Paul said "as many as be perfect" was referring to those who were walking in the kind of perfection that is achievable in this life.
Going in and out makes sense to me. Can't speak to the rest, but don't know of any reason to disagree with it. Certainly agree with growing into the character of Christ in principle.
I agree. And the whole foundation is needed to serve as a platform.
As for this, well, maybe if those who consider themselves to be leaders in the church would write with honesty and modesty the rest of us might learn from their example.
I'm very sure of my understanding of Romans 4....the foundations of the gospel, so no need to be modest about that, but defend it tooth and nail. As to what it means to be entirely sanctified I'm not as sure about that, and so I am approaching it with more modesty.
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