Hey APAK, thank you for your thoughtful replies on this topic.
Let me try my question again:
We may likely never agree on what counts as earning your salvation and cancelling the grace of God.
My current view is that there are deeply rooted theological traditions that teach that all self-effort is spiritually detrimental. They conflate it with going back under the laws of Moses. But these same traditons tend to ignore clear commands from Scripture to make efforts to resist temptation, to make your calling and election sure.
I don't see it as either "God does everything." Or "we do everything". I don't see good works done out of faith canceling the grace of God according to Scripture.
Good works done out of faith should be every Christian's goal. We should all be zealous for doing good and not be afraid that that will somehow cancel out the grace of God. Going back under the laws of Moses to try to be righteous is what is declared foolish.
But helping those in need? Resisting temptation and worldly lusts? These are all good and are done because of faith toward Jesus.
Many are so anxious to give us assurance and prevent us from feeling condemned that they steamroll over clear instructions from Scripture that would easily give us confidence in our faith if we followed them.
Loving others the way Jesus did does give us boldness in the day of judgement.
Self-effort and willpower alone can not give you victory over temptation. But renewing our minds with the Scriptures definitely can.
Scripture doesn't demonize all self-effort. I see this as a modern and somewhat harmful popular tradition.
Well then now that you have said all this I mostly agree with it all.
Then this is my advice:
1. Do NOT listen to canned sermons of the establishment preachers and 'churches.' And especially from those that keep wanting to pat us on our backs when they need to give Goldy advice of encouragement you to keep on praying, learning more and the knowledge of truth to mature in Christ. We are never instantly mature believers at our conversion, on the verge of perfection, yet. It took Paul several decades under his trials and temptations. Remember, he was murderer of Christ's people at one time. He had much baggage to get rid of.
Stay close to others in the Body who draw you, and raise your spirit, alive in Christ. And keep praying in the Spirit for guidance concerning the truth and the written word.
2. I agree, if the works you speak of are driven from your union with Christ as spiritual fruits as the products of your heart, then they are certainly good works of faith in righteousness. They must be demonstrated using this faith you have today. So we do the action for God as he desires, all from the heart that also has the new seed implanted there. They ae inseparable. When you say God cannot do it all. He does, along with our faithful cooperation only. And we stumble at times when we forget this within ourselves.
3. And when you say," But these same traditions tend to ignore clear commands from Scripture to make efforts to resist temptation, to make your calling and election sure. This 3rd point is where I do take exception. We must use and rely and have faith that the Spirit of God will show us the way to keep us our of temptation. And it won't always happen, in the flesh.
When Paul spoke these words he never meant a binary decision was to be make by us by ourselves, to go it alone, without knowing and acknowledging we are also in a new relationship with Christ's spirit. He meant since we are the elect, and were called, confirm it by making resistance to sin a habit, by and with in faith in the presence of Christ's spirit. No one in the flesh, and I say no one can always resist temptation. You might have added to this as in a form of doubt, and the need to sneak around Christ one day and get it done to please God. Not happening, God will not be please as he sees you are still thinking that you are under the old law....a no no....
If there are other scripture that say 'clear commands' to make very effort to resist temptation etc., then please tell me of them so I can address them ALL.
And you and I must read scripture from a Greek traditional view as Paul wrote. 'Making every effort' in this area of scripture has hidden underlying meanings, unknown to the modern reader that you or I could be missing, and I've tried to uncover just one.
Let's look at 2 Peter 1
(2Pe 1:1) Spiritual Growth Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those that have obtained the same precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God, and the Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:2) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.
(2Pe 1:3) Seeing that His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the precise and correct knowledge of Him that called us by His own glory and virtue.
(2Pe 1:4) Whereby He has granted to us His precious and exceedingly great promises, that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.
(2Pe 1:5) Yes and for this very cause you on your part should show all diligence; to your faith add virtue, and to virtue, knowledge.
(2Pe 1:6) And to your knowledge self-control, and to your self-control patience, and to your patience, reverence toward God.
(2Pe 1:7) And to your reverence toward God, brotherly kindness, and to your brotherly kindness, love.
(2Pe 1:8) For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be neither idle nor unfruitful in the precise and correct knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:9) For he that lacks these things is blind,
seeing only what is near,
having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
(2Pe 1:10)
Wherefore brothers, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you shall never stumble.
(2Pe 1:11) For thus shall be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Certainty of Truth
(2Pe 1:12) Wherefore I shall be ready always to put you in remembrance of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth which is with you.
(2Pe 1:13) And I think it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance.
(2Pe 1:14) Knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle comes swiftly, even as our Lord Jesus Christ indicated to me.
(2Pe 1:15) Yes, I will give diligence that at every time you may be able after my death to call these things to remembrance.
Look at 1 Peter 1:10b...you shall never stumble. Do you think Paul is saying he can never stumble and because he cannot, this means, he is ensuring he STAYS elected and even saved? Or, that he and everyone in Christ can still stumble, and only by not stumbling and then getting up again, we are just confirming who we are, in Christ? We have never lost election as you might think by Paul's words. It is not a binary decision for us to even contemplate that means we can lose election or salvation. This is a form of doubt to me that can seep in ...
