The Spirit groans, it doesn't say we do. You need to study this subject apart from the typical Pentecostal framework. They were off from the beginning and know less about the Holy Spirit and the gifts than most mainline Church members.
Praying in the Spirit
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Excellent. στεναγμοῖς is indisputably well-attested as "groan" or "moan" in Classical usage, and all the words it translates in Hebrew likewise referred to the same, and even of mothers groaning/moaning in childbirth. Thus, the intercession spoken of in this passage is clearly verbal. And ἀλαλήτοις, while typically rendered "unutterable" or "inexpressible," would therefore have to be taken as unintelligible.
Not sure what Cessationists do with this, but I suppose they make up something.
Berserk, you wouldn't happen to be a member over at CF, would you? I recall someone by the same or a similar name over there.
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
And here we have our answer, LoL. Dave, study the Greek. You incessantly advise others not to approach subjects from their doctrinal framework when you are one of the worst offenders in this regard on this forum. Why do I even respond to your posts. You listen to no one.
LOL, you haughtily proclaim Pentecostal ignorance of the Word, when in fact it is you and your ilk who are virtually illiterate in the scholarly research of biblical texts in the original languages and against the background of contemporary Greco-Roman culture. As a Harvard doctoral student in NT I have served as a Teaching Fellow at Harvard in graduate NT courses; so don't play the better educated card with me! I was also a Theology professor at a Catholic university for 12 years. The key point is this: being uneducated in such matters, you neither know Hellenistic Greek nor read modern academic commentaries on the specific NT books you cite. If you had, you would find insights like Ernst Kaesemann's in his learned Commentary on Romans (pp. 240-241):
"It ("groans too deep for words") can only be a matter of ecstatic cries,...praying in the Spirit (1 Cor 14:15 [speaking in tongues]; Ephesians 6:18: Jude 20)….It makes good sense if what is at issue is the praying in tongues of 1 Cor 14:15...At most one has to ask why he speaks of "stenagomoi alaletoi" instead of praying in the Spirit. We learn the answer from 2 Cor 12:4. In his rapture Paul hard "arreta remata," which in context cannot mean "wordless" but only "inexpressible in earthly language.""
My only supplement to Kaesemann is the insight that the Greek phrase "stenagmoi alaletai" finds a Latin parallel in Lucan's description of the Delphic glossolalia that needs a prophet's interpretation. My insight written up in a research paper and was well received in my Harvard doctoral NT seminar by professors, none of whom were Pentecostal or Charismatic.
And as I've explained in another post, I think the Spirit plays a similar role in praying in the Spirit that does not take the form of speaking in tongues.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Also excellent. Wordless sayings would indeed be a little tough to make out, LoL.
If you could, mind providing Lucan's quote for me? I'd like to read it. I've always suspected that part of the problem in Thessaloniki of potentially "despising prophecy" was their relative close proximity to Delphi, and the general distrust that may have developed in the region due false and/or obscure utterances coming from the pagan prophets and prophetesses.
It says the Spirit groans. Not us. And with groanings that cannot be uttered. Cannot = we cannot utter them.
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“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” (Romans 8:26)
Too bad that your positions are formulated without the intellectual integrity of consulting recent academic commentaries on the biblical books in question, commentaries that refute your position.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
@Berserk. And welcome to DaveWorld. He doesn't actually care about scriptural proofs, academic studies, or analysis of the original texts. Dave simply holds to his positions no matter how unreasonable or how many proofs are presented against them to the contrary. He just trolls every thread on every forum he is a member of spouting incessantly false interpretations of the word of God, in defiance of both the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. It's why I now warn him about his salvation if I say anything to him at all (and I'm leaning now towards simply warning others about him rather than addressing him personally, since it's proven time and time again to be a total waste of time, LoL).
But the only thing you can do for Dave is pray for him. He has proven that he doesn't actually care about scripture or even Christ's authority, nor about respecting and listening to the Holy Spirit. He doesn't even appear to care for fellow Christians all that much. He's self-absorbed and narcissistic, and cares only about himself and his pet beliefs.
Just thought I would remind you again about what you are dealing with so you can plan accordingly.
Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
Praying in the Spirit or Spirit-directed prayer in the key to waging effective spiritual warfare (Ephesians 5:18; cp. 5:10-18). In Galatians Paul commands us to "walk in the Spirit" (5:18), that is, to walk in a Spirit-directed life and hence be "led by the Spirit" (5:35). Unless you walk in the Spirit and thus are led by the Spirit, you cannot pray in the Spirit and will not manifest the 9 "fruit of the Spirit' (5:22-23). Most Christians don't grasp the mystical aspect of walking the Spirit and wrongly reduce it to trying to apply Jesus' discipleship principles.
I've found that when the Spirit of God is moving powerfully on/in me, not only do I pray in tongues but I also groan a lot. I also groan during repentance. It's the Spirit turning me back to the Father.
During the 90s, I found myself in a southern Ontario Vineyard church. God was moving in a way to renew much of the church around the world. It blew everyone's doctrine apart at one point or another. Now I know that many are hostile towards the movement, but I was there and I bear witness that it was a genuine move of God.
When a cold front meets a warm front, sparks fly. It's the same when the Kingdom of God clashes with the kingdom of darkness. People do strange things when demons are being cast out of them. My big outward manifestation was getting knocked over and stuck to the floor until I repented of not believing that God knocked people over and stuck them to the floor. Foolish thinking. I abandoned it that night.
The lasting fruit in my life was this: 2 other times in my life I walked away from God to my own detriment. My first time at a Vineyard church had Father God showing me His unconditional love for me.
I've gone through 20 years of affliction. Before that, I basically lived in what I called the Holy Zone. God was so real to me all the time. I used to stay up half the night just to talk with Him.
I've never turned away from Him for 26 years. This not my doing. It was and still is my response to His love for me. When I found myself in a spiritual desert, it was the memory of His love that got me through it. It's nice when people accept my story at face value. If they don't, it's not that important to me because what is important to me is how much He loves me.
And before I knew the scripture, I responded by loving Him back. This formed my thinking that said I wanted to help others as a way of loving Him back. He's become my sole passion. I'm reminded of an old America song. "I need you like the flowers need the rain, I need you like the winter needs the spring." Or something like that. Exactly like that.
Father, I ask that every soul in this group that hungers, and thirsts for You would be filled to overflowing with You, The Answer To Our Prayers. Amen and Shalom.
During the 90s, I found myself in a southern Ontario Vineyard church. God was moving in a way to renew much of the church around the world. It blew everyone's doctrine apart at one point or another. Now I know that many are hostile towards the movement, but I was there and I bear witness that it was a genuine move of God.
When a cold front meets a warm front, sparks fly. It's the same when the Kingdom of God clashes with the kingdom of darkness. People do strange things when demons are being cast out of them. My big outward manifestation was getting knocked over and stuck to the floor until I repented of not believing that God knocked people over and stuck them to the floor. Foolish thinking. I abandoned it that night.
The lasting fruit in my life was this: 2 other times in my life I walked away from God to my own detriment. My first time at a Vineyard church had Father God showing me His unconditional love for me.
I've gone through 20 years of affliction. Before that, I basically lived in what I called the Holy Zone. God was so real to me all the time. I used to stay up half the night just to talk with Him.
I've never turned away from Him for 26 years. This not my doing. It was and still is my response to His love for me. When I found myself in a spiritual desert, it was the memory of His love that got me through it. It's nice when people accept my story at face value. If they don't, it's not that important to me because what is important to me is how much He loves me.
And before I knew the scripture, I responded by loving Him back. This formed my thinking that said I wanted to help others as a way of loving Him back. He's become my sole passion. I'm reminded of an old America song. "I need you like the flowers need the rain, I need you like the winter needs the spring." Or something like that. Exactly like that.
Father, I ask that every soul in this group that hungers, and thirsts for You would be filled to overflowing with You, The Answer To Our Prayers. Amen and Shalom.
