Ive posted this several times before, but this is a frequent topic so here we go again. Yes I believe that we christians can pray to saints Why do we pray to the saints??? First off, we don't pray to the saints we ask the saints pray for us. Which makes the question Why do you pray to others?? Becuase Jesus himself said " when two or three pray in my name my spirit is among them."but then how do we know the saints can hear our prayers??, Simple, through the bible.1. All christians are members of Christs body and one another 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. ( roman 12:5)2. Jesus has only one body4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; ( Eph 4:4)15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.( col 3:15)3. death cannot seperate christians from one another35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ( rom 8: 35-39)4. Christians are bound in mutual love10Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; ( Rom 12:10) 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. ( 1 Thess 5:11) 2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. ( gal 6:2)----------------------------------------------------------Now I don't believe that you have to ask the saints to pray for you, I really don't care, I don't think God really cares. Its not a salvation issue, its not a sin not to pray to the saints, not praying to the saints won't cause you to seperate yourself. But it is an awesome way to get prayers!!
Praying to saints past?
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(winsome;54728)
Silence in scripture is not proof that we cannot do something. Nowhere is scripture does it say we cannot ask those in heaven to pray for us.Consider this scripture:“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)Note- they are offering the prayers of the saints - our prayers.If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Silence in scripture is very much so an argument against why we do or don't do things. The scriptures are also silent on whether or not I should pray to dead animals, shrubs, or rocks. What scripture is not silent on, however, is Who we are to pray to (our Father in heaven), and even gives us direction on how to pray. Nowhere is it ever told to us, Jesus or anyone else in scripture, that we are to pray to dead saints. Scipture is silent for a reason. If Jesus wanted us to pray to saints, He would have told us to. He didn't tell us to because it would be non-sensical, pointless, and blasphemus to do so. The teaching of praying to saints is nothing short of puffing up man above what he should be, all the while distracting from the true relationship we are to have with our God and Father... and, the teaching that we should be or even *can be* praying to saints, is a lie from the pit of hell.There is a reason "scripture is silent". We aren't told to pray to saints because we shouldn't be doing it. We might as well pray to trees.The saints people claim to pray to *must* be at all places at all times in order to hear our prayer (like God). So, I ask again... do we become omnipresent, like God, when we go to be with the Lord then?
Silence in scripture is not proof that we cannot do something. Nowhere is scripture does it say we cannot ask those in heaven to pray for us.Consider this scripture:“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)Note- they are offering the prayers of the saints - our prayers.If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Silence in scripture is very much so an argument against why we do or don't do things. The scriptures are also silent on whether or not I should pray to dead animals, shrubs, or rocks. What scripture is not silent on, however, is Who we are to pray to (our Father in heaven), and even gives us direction on how to pray. Nowhere is it ever told to us, Jesus or anyone else in scripture, that we are to pray to dead saints. Scipture is silent for a reason. If Jesus wanted us to pray to saints, He would have told us to. He didn't tell us to because it would be non-sensical, pointless, and blasphemus to do so. The teaching of praying to saints is nothing short of puffing up man above what he should be, all the while distracting from the true relationship we are to have with our God and Father... and, the teaching that we should be or even *can be* praying to saints, is a lie from the pit of hell.There is a reason "scripture is silent". We aren't told to pray to saints because we shouldn't be doing it. We might as well pray to trees.The saints people claim to pray to *must* be at all places at all times in order to hear our prayer (like God). So, I ask again... do we become omnipresent, like God, when we go to be with the Lord then?
(treeoflife;54758)
Silence in scripture is very much so an argument against why we do or don't do things. The scriptures are also silent on whether or not I should pray to dead animals. What scripture is not silent on, however, is Who we are to pray to (our Father in heaven), and even gives us direction on how to pray. Nowhere is it ever told to us, Jesus or anyone else in scripture, that we are to pray to dead saints. Scipture is silent for a reason. If Jesus wanted us to pray to saints, He would have told us to. He didn't tell us to because it would be non-sensical, pointless, and blasphemus to do so. There is a reason "scripture is silent". We aren't told to pray to saints because we shouldn't be doing it. We might as well pray to trees. The saints people claim to pray to *must* be at all places at all times in order to hear our prayer (like God). So, I ask again... do we become omnipresent, like God, when we go to be with the Lord then?
No we should not ask trees to pray for us, trees are not alive but your great grandmother and all others in heaven are alive in christ. Making it very possible to ask for there prayers. Why do I say the saints are alive, why else??? because of scripture. Mark 12:26-27 states that " He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living", in Mark 9:4 Jesus is seen conversing with elijah and moses. Jesus tells the good thief " Truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise ( Lk 23:43) In fact the saints in heaven are more alive than we are. They are free from all sin. They enjoy the fullness of Gods Presence, and are flooded with Gods love. Just as paul asked fellow believers to pray for him (Rom 15:30;Col 4:3;1 Thess 5:25;Eph 8:18-19; 2 Thess 3:1) now we can ask Paul and the other saints in heaven to pray for us. We are not cut off after death, instead we are brought closer through the unity we share with christ
Silence in scripture is very much so an argument against why we do or don't do things. The scriptures are also silent on whether or not I should pray to dead animals. What scripture is not silent on, however, is Who we are to pray to (our Father in heaven), and even gives us direction on how to pray. Nowhere is it ever told to us, Jesus or anyone else in scripture, that we are to pray to dead saints. Scipture is silent for a reason. If Jesus wanted us to pray to saints, He would have told us to. He didn't tell us to because it would be non-sensical, pointless, and blasphemus to do so. There is a reason "scripture is silent". We aren't told to pray to saints because we shouldn't be doing it. We might as well pray to trees. The saints people claim to pray to *must* be at all places at all times in order to hear our prayer (like God). So, I ask again... do we become omnipresent, like God, when we go to be with the Lord then?
No we should not ask trees to pray for us, trees are not alive but your great grandmother and all others in heaven are alive in christ. Making it very possible to ask for there prayers. Why do I say the saints are alive, why else??? because of scripture. Mark 12:26-27 states that " He is not the God of the dead but the God of the living", in Mark 9:4 Jesus is seen conversing with elijah and moses. Jesus tells the good thief " Truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise ( Lk 23:43) In fact the saints in heaven are more alive than we are. They are free from all sin. They enjoy the fullness of Gods Presence, and are flooded with Gods love. Just as paul asked fellow believers to pray for him (Rom 15:30;Col 4:3;1 Thess 5:25;Eph 8:18-19; 2 Thess 3:1) now we can ask Paul and the other saints in heaven to pray for us. We are not cut off after death, instead we are brought closer through the unity we share with christ
Sir Knight
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(treeoflife;54758)
The teaching of praying to saints is nothing short of puffing up man above what he should be, all the while distracting from the true relationship we are to have with our God and Father... and, the teaching that we should be or even *can be* praying to saints, is a lie from the pit of hell.
Praying to the saints dates back to the mid second century [see Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157)]. What makes you think that those who were taught directly by the Apostles or their immediate successors got this important point wrong and over a thousand years later people suddenly started getting it right? Logicly it would be the other way around.(treeoflife;54758)
The saints people claim to pray to *must* be at all places at all times in order to hear our prayer (like God). So, I ask again... do we become omnipresent, like God, when we go to be with the Lord then?
Rev 5:13 tells us that John was able to "hear every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea" (easily numbering in the millions, if not the billions). If God can grant such ability to sinners here on earth still in the flesh, do you think that He would not grant even greater ability to those sinless saints in heaven to be able to hear millions of prayers at once?
The teaching of praying to saints is nothing short of puffing up man above what he should be, all the while distracting from the true relationship we are to have with our God and Father... and, the teaching that we should be or even *can be* praying to saints, is a lie from the pit of hell.
Praying to the saints dates back to the mid second century [see Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157)]. What makes you think that those who were taught directly by the Apostles or their immediate successors got this important point wrong and over a thousand years later people suddenly started getting it right? Logicly it would be the other way around.(treeoflife;54758)
The saints people claim to pray to *must* be at all places at all times in order to hear our prayer (like God). So, I ask again... do we become omnipresent, like God, when we go to be with the Lord then?
Rev 5:13 tells us that John was able to "hear every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea" (easily numbering in the millions, if not the billions). If God can grant such ability to sinners here on earth still in the flesh, do you think that He would not grant even greater ability to those sinless saints in heaven to be able to hear millions of prayers at once?
Let me make a point that is missing here Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. What does this mean? These verse's are written to flesh man (under the sun means flesh on earth) The dead KNOW NOTHING of the flesh world anymore As long as you are flesh there is hope you can be saved once you are dead you can not receive any more rewards for your works are done. You are appointed once to die, And all your emotions feelings, works are through once you are dead. The DEAD Know nothing of the earthy things(under the sun) asking them to pray/interceed for you is absoulty pointless. They are not a part of the earthly things.
Hi, I just happened to read this thread. A point of clarification may be helpful. In reference to the idea of praying to the dead, Moses and Elijah were mentioned earlier. However, Elijah was taken to heaven in a chariot of fire, without seeing death. He was 'translated,' as Paul describes it I believe. In regard to Moses, Scriptural evidence suggests that he was resurrected from the dead, see Romans 5 and Jude. Dave
Christ came not to change the Law LGF but to fulfill it nothing has changed except we have Jesus Christ as our one mediator. You can not dismiss the old testament because it does not agree with a church(mans)doctrine Im a not taking this out of context. We are never told to ask for intercession by the dead. They have no more portion(part) in earthly matters (under the sun.)The words of Solomon are as applicable today as when he spoke them we can not dismiss what doesnt suit us. If so where do we stop.Ecc. is written to flesh man Solomon is simply looking at the state of spirtual decay in flesh man how can you say that does not apply to today??
Sir Knight
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- (kriss;54766)
Christ came not to change the Law LGF but to fulfill it nothing has changed except we have Jesus Christ as our one mediator. You can not dismiss the old testament because it does not agree with a church(mans)doctrine Im a not taking this out of context. We are never told to ask for intercession by the dead. They have no more portion(part) in earthly matters (under the sun.)The words of Solomon are as applicable today as when he spoke them we can not dismiss what doesnt suit us. If so where do we stop.Ecc. is written to flesh man Solomon is simply looking at the state of spirtual decay in flesh man how can you say that does not apply to today?? - (kriss;54761)
Let me make a point that is missing here Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. What does this mean? These verse's are written to flesh man (under the sun means flesh on earth) The dead KNOW NOTHING of the flesh world anymore As long as you are flesh there is hope you can be saved once you are dead you can not receive any more rewards for your works are done. You are appointed once to die, And all your emotions feelings, works are through once you are dead. The DEAD Know nothing of the earthy things(under the sun) asking them to pray/interceed for you is absoulty pointless. They are not a part of the earthly things.
treeoflife, krissWhy do you continue to contradict scripture by calling the saints that have gone before us to heaven dead when they are alive?I made this post earlier and you have avoided answering it.(winsome;54722)
There seems to be a problem here that is fundamental. And that is what happens to the soul at death. There seem to be three options:1. Annihilation - the soul dies and is resurrected with the body. I have not heard any Christian espouse this.2. "Soul Sleep" - the souls "sleeps until the resurrection. I know some Christians believe this but most don't and it's not biblical.3. The soul is alive in heaven (or hell, but we are considering saints). I think most Christians believe this, but some are unwilling to accept the implications of it.Catholics (and others) believe that those who have died in God's love and friendship will be alive in heaven. We believe in the communion of saints. We are all part of the one body of Christ. Are those alive in heaven not part of the body of Christ?“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Is your failure to respond because scripture is clear that they are alive but you just will not accept what scripture says?LGF has shown you many passages that show that the saints in heaven are alive.Let me add some more:What does Jesus say?Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)The soul does not die, it can only be destroyed in hellWhat does Paul say?my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. (Phil 1:23-24)Why would Paul desire to depart [this life] and be with Christ if he would only be dead with him? As treeoflife pointed out earlier To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8)What does the writer of Hebrews say?“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel”. (Heb 12:22-24).What does John say in Revelation about who is in heaven?The twenty four elders are worshipping God in Rev 4And what are they doing?And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,“You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:9-11)The multitude from every nation dressed in white before the throne in Rev 7 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev 7:10)andFor this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, (Rev 7:15)They all sound very much alive to me.What else is going on in heaven?“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
There seems to be a problem here that is fundamental. And that is what happens to the soul at death. There seem to be three options:1. Annihilation - the soul dies and is resurrected with the body. I have not heard any Christian espouse this.2. "Soul Sleep" - the souls "sleeps until the resurrection. I know some Christians believe this but most don't and it's not biblical.3. The soul is alive in heaven (or hell, but we are considering saints). I think most Christians believe this, but some are unwilling to accept the implications of it.Catholics (and others) believe that those who have died in God's love and friendship will be alive in heaven. We believe in the communion of saints. We are all part of the one body of Christ. Are those alive in heaven not part of the body of Christ?“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39)“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Is your failure to respond because scripture is clear that they are alive but you just will not accept what scripture says?LGF has shown you many passages that show that the saints in heaven are alive.Let me add some more:What does Jesus say?Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)The soul does not die, it can only be destroyed in hellWhat does Paul say?my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. (Phil 1:23-24)Why would Paul desire to depart [this life] and be with Christ if he would only be dead with him? As treeoflife pointed out earlier To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8)What does the writer of Hebrews say?“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel”. (Heb 12:22-24).What does John say in Revelation about who is in heaven?The twenty four elders are worshipping God in Rev 4And what are they doing?And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,“You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:9-11)The multitude from every nation dressed in white before the throne in Rev 7 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev 7:10)andFor this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, (Rev 7:15)They all sound very much alive to me.What else is going on in heaven?“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
(kriss;54766)
Christ came not to change the Law LGF but to fulfill it nothing has changed except we have Jesus Christ as our one mediator. You can not dismiss the old testament because it does not agree with a church(mans)doctrine Im a not taking this out of context. We are never told to ask for intercession by the dead. They have no more portion(part) in earthly matters (under the sun.)The words of Solomon are as applicable today as when he spoke them we can not dismiss what doesnt suit us. If so where do we stop.Ecc. is written to flesh man Solomon is simply looking at the state of spirtual decay in flesh man how can you say that does not apply to today??
Yes But Christ Died to save us from death and the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) But as Paul puts it 1 Cor 15:22 "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." So I ask why do Ecc. and 1 cor 15:22 disagree, one says that we are dead after death, the other alive after death. Obviously death was changed after Jesus died for our sins. I would not support this doctrine if it wasn't in scriptures, But the scripture clearly says it....the saints are alive
Christ came not to change the Law LGF but to fulfill it nothing has changed except we have Jesus Christ as our one mediator. You can not dismiss the old testament because it does not agree with a church(mans)doctrine Im a not taking this out of context. We are never told to ask for intercession by the dead. They have no more portion(part) in earthly matters (under the sun.)The words of Solomon are as applicable today as when he spoke them we can not dismiss what doesnt suit us. If so where do we stop.Ecc. is written to flesh man Solomon is simply looking at the state of spirtual decay in flesh man how can you say that does not apply to today??
Yes But Christ Died to save us from death and the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) But as Paul puts it 1 Cor 15:22 "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." So I ask why do Ecc. and 1 cor 15:22 disagree, one says that we are dead after death, the other alive after death. Obviously death was changed after Jesus died for our sins. I would not support this doctrine if it wasn't in scriptures, But the scripture clearly says it....the saints are alive
(kriss;54766)
Christ came not to change the Law LGF but to fulfill it nothing has changed except we have Jesus Christ as our one mediator.
Your point about Christ being the one mediator has been dealt with in posts #6 & #15. Why are you raising it again?
Christ came not to change the Law LGF but to fulfill it nothing has changed except we have Jesus Christ as our one mediator.
Your point about Christ being the one mediator has been dealt with in posts #6 & #15. Why are you raising it again?
(winsome;54774)
treeoflife, krissWhy do you continue to contradict scripture by calling the saints that have gone before us to heaven dead when they are alive?I made this post earlier and you have avoided answering it.Is your failure to respond because scripture is clear that they are alive but you just will not accept what scripture says?LGF has shown you many passages that show that the saints in heaven are alive.Let me add some more:What does Jesus say?Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)The soul does not die, it can only be destroyed in hellWhat does Paul say?my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. (Phil 1:23-24)Why would Paul desire to depart [this life] and be with Christ if he would only be dead with him? As treeoflife pointed out earlier To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8)What does the writer of Hebrews say?“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel”. (Heb 12:22-24).What does John say in Revelation about who is in heaven?The twenty four elders are worshipping God in Rev 4And what are they doing?And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,“You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:9-11)The multitude from every nation dressed in white before the throne in Rev 7 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev 7:10)andFor this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, (Rev 7:15)They all sound very much alive to me.What else is going on in heaven?“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
The saints are alive, in God's presence. They are as angels of God, in their heavenly bodies... However, they certainly are not omnipresent and listening to our prayers, or receiving them. Nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. Any teaching of praying to saints is a fabrication out of the heart, but is not given to us by instruction from our Father, ever.Do what you want, because that's what you're going to do. If it makes you feel good to think that you have dead people (alive in heaven) who can't hear you or receive your prayers, I suppose you will continue to do it. If you attain to God's Word, however, and you care what He desires for us and tells us is true, then you won't make any attempt to pray to saints any longer. Furthermore, it would not only be pointless, but actually conterproductive to do so, as you waste time on prayers that completely miss their mark.I'm still waiting to see the scripture that shows me that we become omnipresent in heaven... because this is an absolute requirement if we or any saint will be able to hear the prayers offered by those still alive, in the flesh, on Earth.
treeoflife, krissWhy do you continue to contradict scripture by calling the saints that have gone before us to heaven dead when they are alive?I made this post earlier and you have avoided answering it.Is your failure to respond because scripture is clear that they are alive but you just will not accept what scripture says?LGF has shown you many passages that show that the saints in heaven are alive.Let me add some more:What does Jesus say?Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)The soul does not die, it can only be destroyed in hellWhat does Paul say?my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you. (Phil 1:23-24)Why would Paul desire to depart [this life] and be with Christ if he would only be dead with him? As treeoflife pointed out earlier To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8)What does the writer of Hebrews say?“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel”. (Heb 12:22-24).What does John say in Revelation about who is in heaven?The twenty four elders are worshipping God in Rev 4And what are they doing?And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall before the one who is seated on the throne and worship the one who lives forever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,“You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:9-11)The multitude from every nation dressed in white before the throne in Rev 7 They cried out in a loud voice, saying,“Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev 7:10)andFor this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, (Rev 7:15)They all sound very much alive to me.What else is going on in heaven?“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
The saints are alive, in God's presence. They are as angels of God, in their heavenly bodies... However, they certainly are not omnipresent and listening to our prayers, or receiving them. Nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. Any teaching of praying to saints is a fabrication out of the heart, but is not given to us by instruction from our Father, ever.Do what you want, because that's what you're going to do. If it makes you feel good to think that you have dead people (alive in heaven) who can't hear you or receive your prayers, I suppose you will continue to do it. If you attain to God's Word, however, and you care what He desires for us and tells us is true, then you won't make any attempt to pray to saints any longer. Furthermore, it would not only be pointless, but actually conterproductive to do so, as you waste time on prayers that completely miss their mark.I'm still waiting to see the scripture that shows me that we become omnipresent in heaven... because this is an absolute requirement if we or any saint will be able to hear the prayers offered by those still alive, in the flesh, on Earth.
Matthew 22:29-34: 29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. We are not omnipresent, seeking out or listening to all the prayers of all people at all time... that is God's power. We are as angels of God in heaven, confined to the limitations and functions of our heavenly bodies... and we serve Him. Our Father is the only one Who is ALL POWERFUL, and hears all the prayers of all people, and is aware of all things at all times. As Jesus said... not even a single bird falls to the ground without Him knowing it. Jesus put all the attention on our FATHER in heaven. He didn't tell us that saints were aware of our happenings, or what was going on... He made it a point that God, our Father, is completely aware of our surroundings and is able to save. He alone is all we need, and that is all we need to know. He alone is all powerful and all knowing, and we are not. We are as angels of God in heaven. You err, not knowing the sctiptures or the power of God, in thinking that dead saints (alive in heaven) can hear you or receive your prayers.(treeoflife;54787)
I'm still waiting to see the scripture that shows me that we become omnipresent in heaven... because this is an absolute requirement if we or any saint will be able to hear the prayers offered by those still alive, in the flesh, on Earth
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” ([url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rev+8%3A3]Rev 8:3[/url])If the saints are praying for us in heaven they must be aware of us.
I'm still waiting to see the scripture that shows me that we become omnipresent in heaven... because this is an absolute requirement if we or any saint will be able to hear the prayers offered by those still alive, in the flesh, on Earth
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” ([url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rev+8%3A3]Rev 8:3[/url])If the saints are praying for us in heaven they must be aware of us.
(Letsgofishing;54788)
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” ([url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rev+8%3A3]Rev 8:3[/url])If the saints are praying for us in heaven they must be aware of us.
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” ([url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rev+8%3A3]Rev 8:3[/url])If the saints are praying for us in heaven they must be aware of us.
When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
The golden bowls full of incense *which are the prayers of the saints*. The bowls full of incense *are the prayers of the saints*.“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
Again, and angel (which obviously has been given some kind of command, by God, to do this work). As, it says the angel *was given* a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints. So, an angel was given this... and we are all saints. I'm not seeing where saints (we all are saints) are listening to the prayers of all people on the Earth. I see where an angel is *given* this, and is offering it.(treeoflife;54787)
The saints are alive, in God's presence.
Praise God that you are now accepting his truth as given in scripture.(treeoflife;54787)
Do what you want, because that's what you're going to do. If it makes you feel good to think that you have dead people (alive in heaven) who can't hear you or receive your prayers, I suppose you will continue to do it. If you attain to God's Word, however, and you care what He desires for us and tells us is true, then you won't make any attempt to pray to saints any longer. Furthermore, it would not only be pointless, but actually conterproductive to do so, as you waste time on prayers that completely miss their mark.
You are of course entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. It is not God’s word and you have given no scripture to back up your opinion.(treeoflife;54787)
The saints are alive, in God's presence. They are as angels of God, in their heavenly bodies... However, they certainly are not omnipresent and listening to our prayers, or receiving them. Nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. Any teaching of praying to saints is a fabrication out of the heart, but is not given to us by instruction from our Father, ever.I'm still waiting to see the scripture that shows me that we become omnipresent in heaven... because this is an absolute requirement if we or any saint will be able to hear the prayers offered by those still alive, in the flesh, on Earth.
It is you who err in not knowing the power of God, and the generosity and love of God.How can those in heaven hear all our prayers?Heaven is out of time at least the sort of time we know on earth. Those in heaven are not constrained by time as we are. They are part of the Body and more closely bound with Christ and the Holy Spirit than we are. Everything that they know is known through Christ. It is not that they hear our prayers but that they know them. A Saints ability to know of several prayers “at once” doesn’t imply omnipresence. It just means they are outside time.Jesus prays that we will be one in him, just as he is one in the Father and we will also be in the Father. In other words we will be united in to the divine life of the Trinity. This comes to perfection in heaven.“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (Jn 17:20-23). As Paul says in 1 Cor 13:12 “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.”Whatever Christ does we will be able to do – though Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. What do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth. “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?God will raise us up with him and seat us with him in the heavenly places in Christ (see Eph 2:5-6) And what are we to do when raised up with him in heaven?“For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:10). Why should those good works not include intercession just as Jesus is doing? Everything we do will depend on Christ because we are in him.If we look at Revelation we can see what the saints in heaven are doing:“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints and angels in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.You say that in heaven we are as angels of God in heaven. And what do angels do?“Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?”(Heb 1:14) So those in heaven are in the divine service They serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation – us here on earth. How do they do that? Well one way is by interceding for us.Consider also this scripture:“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” (Heb 12:1). The Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.
The saints are alive, in God's presence.
Praise God that you are now accepting his truth as given in scripture.(treeoflife;54787)
Do what you want, because that's what you're going to do. If it makes you feel good to think that you have dead people (alive in heaven) who can't hear you or receive your prayers, I suppose you will continue to do it. If you attain to God's Word, however, and you care what He desires for us and tells us is true, then you won't make any attempt to pray to saints any longer. Furthermore, it would not only be pointless, but actually conterproductive to do so, as you waste time on prayers that completely miss their mark.
You are of course entitled to your opinion but that is all it is. It is not God’s word and you have given no scripture to back up your opinion.(treeoflife;54787)
The saints are alive, in God's presence. They are as angels of God, in their heavenly bodies... However, they certainly are not omnipresent and listening to our prayers, or receiving them. Nowhere in scripture are we told otherwise. Any teaching of praying to saints is a fabrication out of the heart, but is not given to us by instruction from our Father, ever.I'm still waiting to see the scripture that shows me that we become omnipresent in heaven... because this is an absolute requirement if we or any saint will be able to hear the prayers offered by those still alive, in the flesh, on Earth.
Matthew 22:29-34: 29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. We are not omnipresent, seeking out or listening to all the prayers of all people at all time... that is God's power. We are as angels of God in heaven, confined to the limitations and functions of our heavenly bodies... and we serve Him. Our Father is the only one Who is ALL POWERFUL, and hears all the prayers of all people, and is aware of all things at all times. As Jesus said... not even a single bird falls to the ground without Him knowing it. Jesus put all the attention on our FATHER in heaven. He didn't tell us that saints were aware of our happenings, or what was going on... He made it a point that God, our Father, is completely aware of our surroundings and is able to save. He alone is all we need, and that is all we need to know. He alone is all powerful and all knowing, and we are not. We are as angels of God in heaven. You err, not knowing the sctiptures or the power of God, in thinking that dead saints (alive in heaven) can hear you or receive your prayers.It is you who err in not knowing the power of God, and the generosity and love of God.How can those in heaven hear all our prayers?Heaven is out of time at least the sort of time we know on earth. Those in heaven are not constrained by time as we are. They are part of the Body and more closely bound with Christ and the Holy Spirit than we are. Everything that they know is known through Christ. It is not that they hear our prayers but that they know them. A Saints ability to know of several prayers “at once” doesn’t imply omnipresence. It just means they are outside time.Jesus prays that we will be one in him, just as he is one in the Father and we will also be in the Father. In other words we will be united in to the divine life of the Trinity. This comes to perfection in heaven.“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (Jn 17:20-23). As Paul says in 1 Cor 13:12 “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.”Whatever Christ does we will be able to do – though Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. What do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth. “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?God will raise us up with him and seat us with him in the heavenly places in Christ (see Eph 2:5-6) And what are we to do when raised up with him in heaven?“For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.” (Eph 2:10). Why should those good works not include intercession just as Jesus is doing? Everything we do will depend on Christ because we are in him.If we look at Revelation we can see what the saints in heaven are doing:“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)And “Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)If the saints and angels in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.You say that in heaven we are as angels of God in heaven. And what do angels do?“Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?”(Heb 1:14) So those in heaven are in the divine service They serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation – us here on earth. How do they do that? Well one way is by interceding for us.Consider also this scripture:“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” (Heb 12:1). The Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.
You guys are twisting the Word to suit your carnally desire...Matthew 6:9-13 - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Letsgofishing;54779)
Yes But Christ Died to save us from death and the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) But as Paul puts it 1 Cor 15:22 "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." So I ask why do Ecc. and 1 cor 15:22 disagree, one says that we are dead after death, the other alive after death. Obviously death was changed after Jesus died for our sins. I would not support this doctrine if it wasn't in scriptures, But the scripture clearly says it....the saints are alive
Not in scriptures... (look above)John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Yes But Christ Died to save us from death and the penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) But as Paul puts it 1 Cor 15:22 "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." So I ask why do Ecc. and 1 cor 15:22 disagree, one says that we are dead after death, the other alive after death. Obviously death was changed after Jesus died for our sins. I would not support this doctrine if it wasn't in scriptures, But the scripture clearly says it....the saints are alive
Not in scriptures... (look above)John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(treeoflife;54457)
Should we (Christians, knowing Christ, washed by His blood, given open access to the thrown of grace by His Gift), be praying to or through other believers who have died?I say other believers who have died, because by God's Word, all believers are called saints. When Paul addressed the church, his epistles addressed the church body as *saints*. There is nothing more special about Paul, or Peter, or John, as far as sainthood goes... more than my saved great grandmother (or me, or you the believer). The problem in defining a saint, which stems from a church (namely, the Catholic church) that tried to define a saint outside of God's Word, and created a system by which a saint is named. Now, how a church *recognizes* a certain person as a saint, or consequently how a dictionary *defines* a saint, really means nothing. The question for us should be, "What does God's Word say a saint is?" And, "Should we pray to a saint?" Paul addressed those saved, in the churches, as saints, and so we are saints. That is what a saint is. It isn't what the dictionary says, it is what God's Word says. All believers are saints, right now.Therefore, if we are going to pray to Paul (as a named saint), and John (a named saint), or any other named saint... we should also pray to my dead great grandmother, who is also a saint. But, not my great grandmother only... but countless others who were washed by the blood of Christ, being made saints of God, and have sense gone into His presence.What I want to know, is where is the scriptural evidence for praying to saints, and why is it done according to God's Word? The entire New Testiment that we have in Christ, both His Words and the words of the apostles are clear... He is God, and WE ALL are His saints. This being the case, I am not opening this discussion w/ Bible quotes of my own. I will let those who think God's Word supports praying to "saints" start first. This is a serious matter of contention, and it would do all of us saints good have have it resolved, if at all possible.
As Christians the only one we should be praying to is God. Catholicism is nothing more than revamped Greek and Roman paganism. Just look at their list of patron saints,it looks like they adopted the greek and roman god system and instead of using gods they used saints.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints..._and_activitieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints...ess_and_dangershttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_placeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage_of_...sed_Virgin_Mary
Should we (Christians, knowing Christ, washed by His blood, given open access to the thrown of grace by His Gift), be praying to or through other believers who have died?I say other believers who have died, because by God's Word, all believers are called saints. When Paul addressed the church, his epistles addressed the church body as *saints*. There is nothing more special about Paul, or Peter, or John, as far as sainthood goes... more than my saved great grandmother (or me, or you the believer). The problem in defining a saint, which stems from a church (namely, the Catholic church) that tried to define a saint outside of God's Word, and created a system by which a saint is named. Now, how a church *recognizes* a certain person as a saint, or consequently how a dictionary *defines* a saint, really means nothing. The question for us should be, "What does God's Word say a saint is?" And, "Should we pray to a saint?" Paul addressed those saved, in the churches, as saints, and so we are saints. That is what a saint is. It isn't what the dictionary says, it is what God's Word says. All believers are saints, right now.Therefore, if we are going to pray to Paul (as a named saint), and John (a named saint), or any other named saint... we should also pray to my dead great grandmother, who is also a saint. But, not my great grandmother only... but countless others who were washed by the blood of Christ, being made saints of God, and have sense gone into His presence.What I want to know, is where is the scriptural evidence for praying to saints, and why is it done according to God's Word? The entire New Testiment that we have in Christ, both His Words and the words of the apostles are clear... He is God, and WE ALL are His saints. This being the case, I am not opening this discussion w/ Bible quotes of my own. I will let those who think God's Word supports praying to "saints" start first. This is a serious matter of contention, and it would do all of us saints good have have it resolved, if at all possible.
As Christians the only one we should be praying to is God. Catholicism is nothing more than revamped Greek and Roman paganism. Just look at their list of patron saints,it looks like they adopted the greek and roman god system and instead of using gods they used saints.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints..._and_activitieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints...ess_and_dangershttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_placeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage_of_...sed_Virgin_Mary
(thesuperjag;54792)
You guys are twisting the Word to suit your carnally desire...
Translation - I can't refute what you say, and all the scriptures you quote (or possibly I just haven't read them) so I shall just abuse you.(thesuperjag;54792)
Matthew 6:9-13 - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Surely you aren't claiming that is the only prayer we can say.(thesuperjag;54792)
I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Covered in posts #6 and #15 - try reading them(thesuperjag;54792)
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
And your point is?
You guys are twisting the Word to suit your carnally desire...
Translation - I can't refute what you say, and all the scriptures you quote (or possibly I just haven't read them) so I shall just abuse you.(thesuperjag;54792)
Matthew 6:9-13 - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Surely you aren't claiming that is the only prayer we can say.(thesuperjag;54792)
I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Covered in posts #6 and #15 - try reading them(thesuperjag;54792)
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
And your point is?
(jamesrage;54793)
As Christians the only one we should be praying to is God.
When we say pray to the Saints we mean it in the sense of asking which is what the word pray means. It may not be exactly the way you use it, but that is what pray means. It is perfectly legitimate to ask others to pray for us.c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari. (from the Online Entymology Dictionary)So pray actually means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray” Some Protestants try to narrow the word pray to mean only addressing God. But we can ask earnestly anyone. If we pray to Mary or the Saints, we are only addressing them and earnestly asking her for her intercession.Here are some examples of that usage from the great English writer Jane Austin“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)(jamesrage;54793)
Catholicism is nothing more than revamped Greek and Roman paganism. Just look at their list of patron saints,it looks like they adopted the greek and roman god system and instead of using gods they used saints.[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_occupations_and_activities]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints..._and_activities[/url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints...ess_and_dangershttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_placeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage_of_...sed_Virgin_Mary
Please don't be so insulting of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
As Christians the only one we should be praying to is God.
When we say pray to the Saints we mean it in the sense of asking which is what the word pray means. It may not be exactly the way you use it, but that is what pray means. It is perfectly legitimate to ask others to pray for us.c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari. (from the Online Entymology Dictionary)So pray actually means ask earnestly or beg. If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray” Some Protestants try to narrow the word pray to mean only addressing God. But we can ask earnestly anyone. If we pray to Mary or the Saints, we are only addressing them and earnestly asking her for her intercession.Here are some examples of that usage from the great English writer Jane Austin“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)(jamesrage;54793)
Catholicism is nothing more than revamped Greek and Roman paganism. Just look at their list of patron saints,it looks like they adopted the greek and roman god system and instead of using gods they used saints.[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_occupations_and_activities]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints..._and_activities[/url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints...ess_and_dangershttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_placeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage_of_...sed_Virgin_Mary
Please don't be so insulting of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
(winsome;54790)
Praise God that you are now accepting his truth as given in scripture.
Excuse you, but I never said anything different. Don't insult me by saying that I am "accepting his truth". You lie. And, if you say otherwise, you lie more. Of course we are conscious and alive in heaven... but the saints who are there, have died, and they cannot hear us, and cannot hear our prayers. The debate is not whether we are alive in heaven... of course we are, in our heavenly bodies. The debate is whether we can hear the prayers of all people, being omnipresent or having that power.Believe your fabricated myths if you wish, but your prayers fall onto deaf ears... accept to God, who alone has the power to hear and answer our prayers.Still waiting for scripture please. Though, I will say this... I do not know that the saints are *currently* conscious in heaven... I do not know one way or the other. But, I am certain from scripture, they are most certainly not receiving our prayers. You and everyone else who believes that, makes it up out of your own hearts.
Praise God that you are now accepting his truth as given in scripture.
Excuse you, but I never said anything different. Don't insult me by saying that I am "accepting his truth". You lie. And, if you say otherwise, you lie more. Of course we are conscious and alive in heaven... but the saints who are there, have died, and they cannot hear us, and cannot hear our prayers. The debate is not whether we are alive in heaven... of course we are, in our heavenly bodies. The debate is whether we can hear the prayers of all people, being omnipresent or having that power.Believe your fabricated myths if you wish, but your prayers fall onto deaf ears... accept to God, who alone has the power to hear and answer our prayers.Still waiting for scripture please. Though, I will say this... I do not know that the saints are *currently* conscious in heaven... I do not know one way or the other. But, I am certain from scripture, they are most certainly not receiving our prayers. You and everyone else who believes that, makes it up out of your own hearts.
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